edgeucated

iTrader: (4)

^^I think you are a special case where you see snow for almost half the year, and there's no denying an AWD with winter tires will be unstoppable.

But I'm going to have to agree with kurtz, awd does suck in most application, because you could get by with winter tire on RWD and save yourself a ton of money and be faster. Of course there's scenarios where snow covers the ground for half the year; those places are rare, but its where AWD will shine.

Trza

Trust me, if I lived in a climate where it was warm with little to zero snowfall...hell even with medium snowfall, I would have picked up that beautiful CPO'd black on black ISF that was sitting in the lot. One day...I will have you

llamaboiz

I don't understand this 2IS in deep snow bit~ if you live somewhere where you get 'deep' snow, you should be driving something else during the winter no?

Trza

...thats why I bought an AWD vs RWD....you'd be pretty brave to try to make it through winter with RWD and Blizzaks. Now plenty of people here throw on winters and call it a day. However, like i've mentioned before, they are usually the ones stuck in residential intersections and courts...because of deep snow. Most people here are in trucks, suv's and AWD sedans.

My car is my dd, and it's used primarily to drive myself around, and to pick up my 2 year old son from daycare periodically. I guess most people who prefer an awd sedan over a big suv in this climate do not need the extra wasted space...or for the other 6 months of the year prefer to be in something sportier than a tank. We already have a big suv in our family, for long trips, hauling the kids around, grabbing groceries etc...it would be redundant to have 2 big suvs in the garage.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

To be clear, I did say in my initial post
Alaska being the exception I had in mind.

You don't live in the US though, you live in Canada. And even then in a part that gets a ton of snow. (I lived in Ontario myself and never had issues getting stuck, as I mention, in a RWD car with no modern help from traction control either)



I'd absolutely understand getting an AWD or 4WD vehicle if you lived someplace it snowed multiple feet MOST of the time. (though honestly I'd get a high-clearance vehicle, not a 2IS, for those conditions)

But for literally 95+ percent of the north america population that simply isn't the case.

machefai

Fact or a big conspiracy? Let's see how things stack up in a side by side comparison:

Snow: AWD
Ice: AWD
Rain: AWD
Gravel: AWD
Dirt: AWD
Dry: RWD
Snow Tires: AWD
AVG MPG’s (2): RWD
0-60 (.1): RWD
Brake Torque: AWD

Wow you're completely right Kurtz, it does "suck"(read implied sarcasm)! For this exercise, thought it was only fair to keep things to strictly itemizing and comparing your "most applications" driving generalization as it compares to "sucks". You clearly see that the AWD is better overall.If you wanna fall back on your old school snow tires, that's fine. However as I'm sure you know, you're shelling out way more money than the 2 mpg's difference in cost from the AWD, AND your lowering your MPG's by at least another 2-3 by driving on them! It's really a lose-lose! But you should definitely do what you think works best for your set up(again, read implied sarcasm)!

Will definitely be interesting to see them go head to head at the track. I have a feeling the ability for the AWD's to launch off the blocks at higher rpms without losing traction as easily as the RWD, may make a surprising impact!

calvin2376

iTrader: (2)

Haha wow OK, so while I think this argument is a bit silly and can't really be concluded objectively because each person's personal preferences and applications are different AND I'm not intending to take sides ...

In your above argument you need to weight each of the applications by amount of time experienced. Your above analysis appears to give equal weight to each of those criteria/applications, however I would bet most people see "Dry" far more often than they see any of "Snow", "Ice", "Rain", and very few if ever see "Dirt". Therefore you'd want to weight "Dry" higher, which improves the standing of RWD relative to AWD.

But again, not taking sides. Just pointing out a flaw. Please, continue this for my viewing enjoyment

machefai

Def personal preference! and there are trade offs for both, couldn't agree more calvin. so I was just taken back when kurtz said either of them "suck", that was really my point to that comparison. not only uncool, but just not true. I'm with you, I tend to think it balances out and comes out in the wash. but again, that's just my opinion.

iRock

iTrader: (12)

Im LOL seriously. A review of the 350 turns into a AWD vs RWD debate.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

What about snow?

AWD will be better at starting from a dead stop in the snow, ASSUMING both cars have equally good tires. At everything else they'll be about even in the snow.

But yes, for the 10-20% of the year most folks in the north have snow, for the 10-20% of THAT time they're starting from a stop.. AWD will win. The other 95% of the time it won't...while 100% of the time getting worse mileage.

Unless you're not putting snow tires on the AWD. In which case the AWD loses across the board to RWD with snow tires in snow.

Actually, no. Tie.

On pure ice all that AWD does is mean 4 of your wheels are spinning uselessly instead of 2. While still getting worse mileage.

Here again tires will matter FAR more than drivetrain, as a RWD car with studded tires will be able to go somewhere while some AWD car on all-seasons will spin in circles.

Not really, no.

At the power levels the 2IS has you're not going to have much problem in rain regardless of drive wheels. Again assuming proper tires.

In fact, RWD with summer tires will significantly outperform an AWD car with all-seasons in the rain. Braking, handling, and acceleration.

Again tires are what really matter.

Yes... for those folks who spend a lot of time 4-wheeling off-road in their $40,000 luxury sedans they sure made the right choice with AWD!


For people who once in a while have to encounter such a driveway though they're presumably not doing so flooring the car all the time, so they'll notice NO difference between AWD and RWD on those roads other than the AWD will continue to get worse mileage.


Yup. You know, the majority of the time for most drivers.

Not even sure what you're saying here? But 10 posts ago you were saying how you bought AWD to NOT have to have a spare set of winter tires.

Are you saying you changed your mind since I pointed out how much a difference tires make over the drivetrain?

Yup, and again, that's 100% of the time.

And 1/4 mile... and pretty much any other performance measure.

Again... what? Are you saying you can launch from a higher rpm in a drag race? Absolutely. You'll still lose the race to a RWD version of the same car though so I'm not sure how this is a "win" for AWD.


It sure does!

no, I can't.

Since I'm able to do math.

No, I'm not actually.

Again, because I can do math.

Average driver goes about 15k miles a year.

Lets go with say 20 and 22 for average mileage of AWD vs RWD in combined driving.


At $4 a gallon (which is slightly low actually for premium these days) you will spend about $280 a year more on gas in the AWD car.

A good set of snow tires, assuming you're not in Alaska running them 6 months a year, will last you roughly 3-4 winters.

So you'd have to spend more than $840-1120 per set of tires before you were spending more on snow tires.


More importantly though- You will be a lot safer with RWD and snow tires than the dude with AWD and all-seasons will.

Your car will stop about 20-50% shorter for example with snow tires than all-seasons in the snow.

Weren't you initially going on about how SAFETY was your REAL concern? You made a point of that more than once.. safety and avoiding accidents are important to you.

In this case the AWD car with all-seasons is far, far, less safe than the RWD one with snow tires.


Well, you'd be wrong again, but you should be used to it by now.

Lexus lists faster 0-60 times for the RWD. Why do you think the AWD would somehow "catch up" past 60? In fact it gets slower.

Lexus lists the RWD 0.1 seconds faster to 60. It lists the RWD 0.2 seconds faster to the 1/4 mile.

viper522

One wheel drive! as in motorcycle

machefai

All things being equal:

Snow: AWD
RWD is rolling the dice anytime it has to start or go uphill. This includes any stoplight, stop signs, traffic, inclines and hills, etc? Living in the city, combined with somewhat hilly areas, this is clearly more than 10%.

Ice: AWD
We get a ton of patchy black ice as well as a lot of sleet over snow. I wasn't suggesting jumping on a rink like a zamboni! AWD is far better suited to easily handle and maneuver out of these conditions when 1, 2, or 3 wheels slip. RWD is again toast.

Rain: AWD
You're nuts to think a RWD car can handle better in the rain with sports tires. RWD cars are pushing you fwd at all times. If you lose your back end due to rain, you'll quickly find yourself completely out of control. AWD has better traction and it's less likely to lose initial control.

Gravel: AWD
Dirt: AWD
can be loose pavement, emergency lanes, side roads. quite common.

Dry: RWD
agreed.

Snow Tires: AWD
was just stating that, yes, RWD can add things to the vehicle to cover for it's shortcomings. but you need to keep things equal, so if AWD's felt inclined to add snow tires, we'd have the upper hand.

AVG MPG’s (2): RWD
0-60 (.1): RWD
agreed.

Brake Torque: AWD
so if we're in agreement that on a "dry" surface, awd can launch at a higher rpm with greater traction. It would then provide a better start. It will definitely be interesting to see if the RWD can not only make up the ground, but then surpass!

as far as the snow tires vs. cost. you forgot to include the cost of the actual wheel. So you'd just cover the cost of the tires and wheels in 4+ yrs. Right when it's time to buy a new set! Unless of course you're going to the shop to have them mounted and balanced twice a year. not sure how you deal with all of that.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

It might be more than 10% for you.

For a guy who does highway driving it might be less.

Either way there's NO snow on the ground for probably 80-90% of the year overall so AWD is inferior for all that time.

For the remaining 10-20% of the time you only have to be concerned for the fraction of that 10-20% that you're starting from a stop.

With proper tires the RWD does just fine then too in most conditions.

But I agree if you put snow tires on both then in really bad conditions that a fraction of the country ever sees, for a tiny fraciton of the year, for a tiny fraction of THAT time when launching, AWD will do better than RWD.

The other 90+% of the time RWD does better.

That's why AWD sucks. It offers inferior performance for most folks most of the time, and only a very small advantage for a very small amount of the time for a fraction of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by machefai

Rain: AWD
You're nuts to think a RWD car can handle better in the rain with sports tires. RWD cars are pushing you fwd at all times. If you lose your back end due to rain, you'll quickly find yourself completely out of control. AWD has better traction and it's less likely to lose initial control.

You're welcome to think so... but in over 20 years of driving cars I've never had a problem keeping control of my vehicle in the rain with RWD.

Probably because I use good tires, which are vastly more relevant to safe driving than AWD is.

And if you know how to drive properly it's not that hard to recover your wheels breaking loose either, unless you're driving in totally unreasonable conditions (ie flooded roads you shouldn't be driving in at all)... in fact some folks enjoy RWD specifically because of how well you can control the wheels breaking loose or not (ie drifting).

Quote:

Originally Posted by machefai

Gravel: AWD

You commonly drive in emergency lanes?

You're doing something wrong.

Regardless of which, if you're not driving like an idiot, you will have no problem whatsoever on the type of roads you describe with RWD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by machefai

Snow Tires: AWD
was just stating that, yes, RWD can add things to the vehicle to cover for it's shortcomings. but you need to keep things equal, so if AWD's felt inclined to add snow tires, we'd have the upper hand.

Yes indeed. As I said, for the fraction of the time there's bad snow, and you're driving in it, and you're starting from a dead stop, AWD with snow tires will have an advantage over RWD. But unless conditions are pretty bad you won't have a problem with either.

The entire rest of the time RWD wins

Quote:

Originally Posted by machefai

No it won't, because it can't.

I've already pointed out to you several times even Lexus tells you this. The AWD car is slower. Period. In fact it's even more behind at the end of the 1/4 mile than it is in just 0-60.

The 2IS isn't significantly traction limited in normal conditions, so the "more traction" of AWD doesn't counter it's increased weight and parasitic drivetrain loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by machefai

as far as the snow tires vs. cost. you forgot to include the cost of the actual wheel.

Steel wheels are usually pretty cheap... but as you point out, the gas savings will be about break even versus the tires for the first 4 years... AFTER that the gas savings will be larger since you won't be re-buying the wheels, just the tires.

Plus, you'll enjoy a much safer, and better performing, vehicle than the guy with AWD who just uses all seasons.


As to the mount/balance thing, just buy from discount tire. They give you lifetime balance free. They'll even mount/unmount your snow tires free if you bought em there.

I'm sure there's other chains that do so, but I've had no reason to look for em.




So anyway, to sum up:


In really bad winter weather, only when starting from a dead stop, and assuming you've switched to winter tires, AWD will do a little better... but with smart driving RWD is still fine (as evidenced by the majority of the country getting around on it just fine the majority of the time cars have existed).



In all other conditions, which is going to be 90-95% of the time for the vast majority of the country (and near 100% of the time for the entire southern half of the country), RWD does better thanks to better performance and mileage.

Hence, AWD kinda sucks.


Now, move this discussion to a car making 500 hp? that's an entirely different story. That car actually makes enough power to be traction limited more often than "from a dead stop in heavy snow". AWD is a good idea there. (See the Nissan GT-R for example).

On the 200-300 hp 2IS? Not so much.

machefai

k, I guess we'll just have to disagree on the advantages/disadvantages for the weather conditions and whether or not there's value there.

In debating all of this though, it has peeked some interest and curiosity regarding the brake torquing. I see what you mean by saying that the 2is isn't traction limited in normal conditions, but brake torquing isn't normal. Like the stock .1 sec difference in 0-60 is just putting it in drive and stepping on it. Brake torquing is totally different.

so for example purposes, say a RWD car will lose traction after brake torquing and releasing at like 1,800 rpm and an awd can release at 2,500, do you mean to say the awd won't have a much bigger advantage with increased engine speed/torque?

I find this hard to believe since a) brake torquing is proven so effective in allowing for the engine to get off faster and therefore dropping times, and b) it's always better to drop the air pressure in your tires so that you don't lose traction. c) weight and any drivetrain loss combined is proven only .1 slower!

But this is all speculative, so i'm curious to hear everyone's thoughts! But I guess we won't know for sure until folks start hitting the tracks!

IS350AWD

Ha, this was very comical to read.

Since the argument was always tires matter (I agree it is...but combined with drivetrain), here's my solution (since it was only ever mentioned for RWD and not AWD by the original poster):

Put snow tires on AWD and it out-performs RWD on any pavement, any road conditions with exception of slightly slower long-term acceleration runs. Then again, who races the 1/4 mile on public roads? Oh wait, I don't and nobody else does (unless you're nuts).

Oh, and the 2 MPG (estimated $280/yr more) loss overall? Who cares when you obtain WAY better handling than a RWD could ever give you, unless all you want to do is drift. Oh wait, I don't do that either on public roads (again, unless you're nuts).

And all everybody did was argue.