machefai

So in summary, the awd is heavier, therefore uses more gas. There's no argument there.

However, if you take all weather and road conditions into account, the 350 awd offers better overall performance while still able to beat a 350 rwd at the track. The one and only place it will never win, is at the pump.

Still just so confused as to why you're so enamored with snow tires though? Isn't it painful spending your hard earned money on some clunky snow tires and rims? Wait, do you work for a tire company? That may explain things. Maybe folks with rwd's should go out and buy some special tires and rims for the rain as well! A rwd sports car with over 300hp is inherently going to stink in snow, ice or wet conditions, period. In fact, even fwd is way better than rwd when it comes to inclement weather!

Just buy an awd, you'll love experiencing the improved overall performance without having to worry about changing your tires all the time! LOL

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, because it has 200 less horsepower than a camaro. (well, 110 less if you mean the previous-gen F body, but more importantly it has about half the torque of an LS1.

Your 250 doesn't "just go" in the rain because of AWD. It's because it only has 185 torque.

Go drive a 95 camry in the rain... or an NA mk3 supra... no AWD, it "just goes" too.

Hell, my RWD IS350 never has a problem in the rain either (especially since putting good summer tires on it).... I must have magical warlock powers!



The only correct correct thing in your post, so thought I'd point it out.

No, it doesn't.

It starts better in snow. Which is 0-10% of the year for most drivers in the US. While still having inferior mileage that 0-10%. Mind you, it doesn't stop better in the snow.. in fact if you're sticking with your all-seasons it'll stop considerable worse than a RWD car with snow tires will.

the other 90-100% of the time there's no snow it does nothing better while having all the drawbacks I list.

Perhaps you're confused. The race isn't to see who gets there second. No question the AWD would "beat" the RWD in that sense. No other though. It's not an embarrasingly slower car than the RWD, but it's absolutely slower.


Because they make far more difference than which wheels are turning.

I've explained this to you in 3 threads now and you still don't get that.


Isn't it painful spending 3 times more than a set of snow tires on a clunky AWD system that provides significantly less benefit than proper tires?

Besides, we already covered in your last thread about this how the extra you spend on gas that a RWD owner doesn't will more than cover the cost of snow tires... and he's still got the extra $2500 up front he didn't spend on the AWD system in his pocket too... while enjoying better performance 100% of the time with proper tires versus an all-season owner who has inferior performance 100% of the time compared to switching between summer and winter tires.


Not at all. Summer performance tires work GREAT in rain (better than all-seasons)... in fact apart from snow/ice they're the best tires to put on the car. So for that 90-100% of the season it's not snowing, use summers. The rest, use snow tires.

You'll stop, accelerate, and handle better than the suckers with AWD and all-seasons will all year round that way!

No, it won't.

I know things like "facts" and "evidence" are like kryptonite to you and you avoid them at all costs, but that's that.

Again witness all the 350 owners in Chicago, Canada, NY, Minnesota, etc... all getting around great in the winter with proper tires.

Or the other majority of the car buying public who also manage it without AWD. While enjoying all the other benefits of 2WD the other 90+% of the year there's no snow too.


If you're a bad driver, that's certainly true. That might explain a lot in your case.

A good driver with RWD will outperform a good driver with FWD in virtually every situation.

A bad driver with FWD will be safer than a bad driver with RWD.

There's a reason virtually all performance cars (under 500hp) are RWD though. A few are AWD (the rally heritage cars mainly). None are FWD.

There, I fixed it for you!


Again- if you want much inferior braking and handling in the snow, by all means keep "not changing your tires" in the winter. And inferior braking and handling and acceleration in the summer and the rain too for that matter by keeping those all-seasons on.

It's a demonstration of your ignorance, but you seem quite proud of it.


Let me save you further embarrassment though...a while back Car and Driver tested AWD cars with all-seasons versus RWD cars with winter tires (there's even a FWD car in there for fun).

Spoiler alert:
The AWD cars lost overall.

AWD cars did better accelerating from a stop (about 10-15% better on flat surfaces, not enough to matter unless you're drag racing in the snow... but significantly better on steep (>15% inclines).

In every other category (several handling and stopping) the AWD cars lost.... because the 2WD cars have better traction with the proper tires and they're not saddled by the extra weight

They mentioned if you get a lot of snow, and have a lot of hills and mountains, AWD is helpful for starting... but other than that...here lemme quote from their conclusion-


There's a bunch of good quotes from the article I could post about 2WD w/snow tires>AWD with all-seasons though... here's a few-

braking-
handling (lateral grip on skidpad in the snow)
handling (slalom)-

huch

Have you driven with snow tires in the snow before? I can assure you, it's absolutely essential. I live in central Alberta Canada btw. The car came with summers and I still remember how the traction control was going insane with barely 1cm of snow on the roads... and even then, the main roads weren't covered; this was before the annual snow dumps took place too. All seasons are not much better and certainly are not an option for RWD winter driving...period. I'd rather change my tires twice a year than stick with all seasons through out. Why? performance in the winter and performance in the summer, you can't go wrong... as opposed to an "average" through out the year with all seasons. Let's face it, if you have your summers and winters mounted on separate rims, changing tires is a whole 20 mins. In fact I just changed over to my summers today

Also, about it being painful to spend your hard earned money on tires? You're driving a Lexus, not a Kia. If you can afford a Lexus, you can surely afford $800-$1000 winter tires, especially given the huge advantages to driving with them in a winter climate.

If you live in an area where winter is extremely mild then yeah, snow tires obviously isn't a wise investment.

Also, I bet my RWD IS350 with my Hankook ventus v12 evo's would match if not exceed the performance of your 250/350AWD with all seasons in wet conditions.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

wow... look! A RWD 350 owner who drives around just fine in Canada in the snow!

More magical warlocks!


Anyway, just to quantify and reinforce the above-

Edmunds tested summer vs. all season vs. winter in all conditions for acceleration handling and braking (taking drivetrain out of the equation)

The conclusions?

In snow/ice:

you got 24% better acceleration with winter tires over all seasons...10% better handling...and 15% shorter stopping compared to all-seasons. Summer tires sucked across the board here of course.


In wet? (non-freezing)

All-seasons came in third place behind both winter and summer tires for acceleration.... 20% worse than the summers.

All seasons came in third again for braking... almost 40% longer stops than summer tires.

And third AGAIN for handling... about 20% worse results on the skidpad.


In dry conditions the all-seasons embarrased themselves a bit less... managing second place mostly... only 10% worse braking about only 3% worse skidpad.


But point being, they never did better than second, and came in dead last in wet.

All seasons are a compromise that aren't great at anything.

And anyone who says they "got AWD for safety" then drives around on all-seasons is either lying or a sucker.

Proper tires do far more for safety than an AWD system does... as proven over and over and over again in objective testing.

greg0723

im with Kurtz on this one. i have a 06 is350 i never have problem in the rain. do people not know how to drive? i live in connecticut and we got a lot of snow this year. i got out of work at 7am one morning during a big snow storm and the highways were not even plowed yet. it was at least 6-inches on the roads and highways while the snow was still coming down hard. i drove 35 miles in my RWD with snow tires on it and made it home. guess who i saw on the highway in ditches to the guy who say all rwd cars end up on the side. i saw suvs and fwd cars who probably thought their cars could do anything in the snow. my car flowed through the snow no problem. the only time i did have a problem where AWD would of helped is when i stopped and had to push through a big chunk of snow in the driveway or stuck on ice.

embolism

I'm a magical Canadian warlock too!

On the couple of days that it snowed hard here in Toronto, I actually made it into work the fastest since most people stayed home or took the bus.

I continually make fun of my buddy who drives a G37S with 19inch winter tires. He took the bus those days and got sick from ppl coughing all around him on the subway.

Funny thing is, the only time I got stuck was when I stopped to let my garage door open and I had about 6 inches of snow to get through on an incline. Just backed her up and rolled straight on through.

Kurtz, pls stop trying to educate ppl on the benefits of RWD. You're going to increase demand up here in Canada and I will ultimately have to pay more for my next RWD vehicle...

machefai

I guess I can understand why you feel compelled to spend the extra money for snow tires in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the rwd kurtz. But why not just cut out the middle man of RWD and snow tires out and buy an awd. You'd have better overall performance w/o the hassle! Let's not forget about the poor gas mileage you get on snow tires either. I noticed you left that out and didn't include that in your skewed percentages. You also neglected to point out in your percentages that all the places the rwd fail is where all drivers need it to perform the most, w/ traction! Anyone can drive on flat continual straight surfaces!
What you see and hear depends a good deal on where you are standing; it also depends on what sort of person you are. - C.S. LEWIS


And of course there are plenty of rwd's making do with their impeded performance in bad weather, it's just not ideal. And I would imagine they too feel they need to purchase snow tires to get along better in inclement weather. But it's not necessary anymore, just buy an awd and you'll be much better off, stock vs stock. You'll be amazed by how effortlessly you can start, maneuver and get up hills! And that's 90% of where issues arise!

And i'm not trying to start a tire debate. I really don't care about it that much to be honest. performance, snow, all season, use whatever you want. but once you decide on what works best, you'd see better overall performance with that same tire in inclement weather on an awd than you would with a rwd, always.

As far as speed at the track, my point is, let's see if there is any improvement in 300+ hp awd using better brake torquing. It MAY allow the car to hit a higher power range and torque sooner than that of the rwd that would otherwise peel out! It may very well go either way every time or even prove to be quicker!

And as I think someone put it best above by stating that the driver, tires, or weather and/or altitude conditions are a much greater influence over the added weight.

As I'm sure you know, your times can fluctuate easily from .5 or a full second or more even on your best and most consistent runs! It's really a toss up! Whether a car has the potential of being .1 sec faster is almost worthless due to conditions and human error! .1 sec is completely negligible and quite easily surpassed not even taking possible improved brake torque!

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Is english not your first language or something?

because you've been shown repeated evidence that you're completely wrong on that point, over and over again, yet you keep repeating it.

In the majority of tests AWD was inferior to RWD with snow tires in the snow.

The guy with RWD and snow tires does better in snow than the guy with AWD and all-season tires. Proven. Objectively. With testing and measurements. By large margins too.

And of course AWD is inferior in all non-snow conditions too, which is most of the year.

And as mentioned the snow tires cost less than AWD does (especially when you do the math on fuel savings of 2WD vs AWD)

I understand your cognitive dissonance is forcing you to defend your poor choice regardless of how silly it's making you look but you've been presented with a mountain of evidence against you at this point not only from drivers driving in far worse winters than you but objective testing results from tirerack, car and driver, edmunds, etc... and offered nothing to rebut it in the way of actual facts or data.

So either you're being intentionally obtuse or you're not understanding the words you're reading... which is it?

machefai

Actually it's not, but I DO speak three languages fluently. And frankly, I'd appreciate you keeping you ignorant and derogatory comments to yourself.

Actually, I clearly stated "stock vs stock" repeatedly. So perhaps it's you that needs to read a little more closely.

Kurtz, really man, if you want to argue about snow tires vs all season, perhaps you should start a new thread on the topic! Your "mountain of evidence" regarding snow tires is truly off topic and not relevant. Even if that were the point, as I stated numerous times before, if both had snow tires, rwd would still lose. But I refuse to go down that road again! I know the snow tire thing is all you have to hold onto, but let it go man! It's never been the point of this thread or discussions! I'd been pretty clear about not caring to argue over snow tires, but I think your blinded by your stubbornness. I've repeatedly stated overall performance vs the two, stock.

As the OP, I started this thread to discuss the AWD's performance, in particular, with how it performs at the track. And should the advantages/disadvantages of the AWD/RWD present themselves with regard to that topic, then great, let's discuss. But please go trolling elsewhere with your ignorant, angry and rude snowtire tirade. It's neither correct(awd w/ snow tires > rwd w/ snow tires), relevant to the thread or important to this discussion!

embolism

dude, how can you even consider stock vs stock in the winter when our cars come with summer performance tires? Even when buying the car, the sales guy told me it would be useless in the snow without snow tires but I would be more than fine with the proper tires. I could probably get away with all seasons but why pay good money for a mediocre solution?

If you truly want to talk stock vs stock then how about all the other months of the year when performance summer tires will outperform any all season tire in both dry and wet weather?

If you feel safer in the awd and drive within your abilities appropriate for the weather conditions you find yourself in then that's all that matters.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

It's tough when you keep repeating information you've been demonstrably shown is false.


That's simply a lie.

In fact... your last post is the first one you mention "stock vs. stock" in.

The one before that you said You're changing your argument because you're losing the one so far. Smooth move!


Of course it makes even less sense than your previous argument...

That means you can't have summer tires for one- which means your AWD car offers inferior performance 90% of the year to begin with (100% of the year in the south)

For another- your car cost more to run 100% of the year in gas, and $2500 more up front.

So you're spending the price of snow tires in extra gas every 3-4 years already AND you paid another $2500 on top of that.

To still have inferior performance 90% of the year in the north and 100% of the time in the south.

That's just goofy.

But I hope you enjoy the "safety" of your 15-20% longer braking distance and inferior handling for the 90% of the year there's no snow since you're now claiming changing tires isn't allowed and you are stuck with crappy all seasons versus the nice summer performance tires on the RWD car!

You've now made your argument that you paid $2500 more for worse mileage 100% of the year AND significantly longer braking distance 90% of the year... just so you can make it up steep hills in the snow better!

Now, if you allow snow tires on the RWD car you can cancel that gas cost. But you lose most of the remaining "snow" advantage since the RWD car with snow tires beats the AWD car with all-seasons (yet another point you were wrong about but never admitted even after I proved it)


There's no argument to have. All-seasons suck in all seasons compared to dedicated tires. That's a simple fact.

One you denied half a dozen times but it doesn't make you any less wrong.


Yeah, we get that you want to ignore all the evidence you had no idea what you were talking about when you denied tires mattered more than drivetrain, but again- denying doesn't make it so.

Lose how?

The RWD car would still be superior 100% of the time in the south and 90% of the time in the north.

I'm not sure how you can be behind 90-100% of the time and think you're winning.

And that remaining 10%?

The RWD car does better with braking and handling... as explained by the car and driver article... because the drivetrain weight isn't hurting you like it is with the AWD car.


literally the only time with adequate tires the AWD car was "way ahead" was climbing a hill with a 20% of higher grade in the snow.

Which is a pretty damn fringe case to hang your hat on as the one and only place you "win" when AWD loses across the board elsewhere.




I'm sure you do, having lost repeatedly. Much like AWD does to RWD at the track

I think we already did.

The IS350 isn't traction limited at the track, therefore AWD is entirely a disadvantage and will be slower than the RWD car.

This is borne out by the actual tested times Lexus provided for both cars.


You're right! that is NOT correct.

AWD>RWD with snow tires when climbing a 20% or higher grade in the snow.

The other 100% of the time for folks in the south, or 99% of the time in the north if you don't live in the mountains, then RWD>AWD across the board for a 200-300 hp car.



I eagerly await your next change of what you MEANT you were arguing about in an attempt to be right about something.

anthrax144

Even if you outfit the AWD vehicle with staggered summer tires for the track you're still going to lose the race because of the extra weight. There is no traction issue in a RWD IS350 with good street/racing tires.

Since the AWD has already been proven to be slower at the track (yes, by only a few tenths but there's no medal for second place...) the only thing still being discussed is how does AWD perform away from the track. It's hard to argue Kurtz's points when he backs them up with data from real world testing. The overall cost savings from purchasing a RWD vehicle and outfitting it with the appropriate seasonal tires is always going to outweigh the occasional benefits of an all-season, AWD vehicle. The weight and drivetrain loss on an AWD vehicle can't compare with the advantages of a properly outfitted vehicle.

SUPERBRINO

iTrader: (1)

I couldnt agree more Kurtz! I have grown up driving RWD in NY my whole life and never had a problem. When I first got my car the first time it snowed, guess who got home without a problem? ME guess what type of vehicles were scattered across every highway, parkway and intersection? SUV's ... Why you ask? because they're INVINSIBLE!!! LMFAO!!!

more weight, more momentum and more room for driver error

Learn to drive properly and responsibly for the surrounding conditions, YUP!!

machefai

I'm really not, but i'm sorry if you thought that. Once you started on your tire tirade, yet again, with other members, I poked some fun at your affection of snow tires. This is not the first time you've gone down the snow tire justification path when trying to inaccurately compare actual car performance. Snow tires is the crux of your argument! Give the people some perspective! See here: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/6313434-post27.html

Ignore your snow tire evidence? Sweet mother! No one is arguing snow tires over all seasons you crazy person! You brought up snow tires yet again on page 1 in this thread: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/6336080-post20.html It's the rwd vs the awd! Not a RWD w/ snow tires vs an awd w/ all season! That's not stock or an equal comparison!! An equal comparison would be if both had snow tires. Or both w/ performance at the track. If you'd like to have a rational discussion regarding that, i'm all ears! I'm assuming since you can't rely on a snow tire comparison you'll bow out finally(crosses fingers). But if you want to keep discussing how you'll have improved breaking distance w/ your snow tires vs all-weather, then please go elsewhere and start a new thread on that separate snow tire topic.

Allow this thread to get back on the original purpose, discussing the awd performance at the strip. Believe it or not, there are some folks who were actually positively contributing to the thread before you turned it into another snow tire comparison!

cloo7

so you guys want to go out for a drink? lol rwd can buy the first round...