gocubs08

I agree with Kurtz in Everything he has said, he has made every point accurate and explained it fully. If you dont understand it then you shouldnt be driving a car to begin with.

My best friend just bought a 2011 IS350 AWD and we switched cars multiple times and I will say his AWD does do a better job when you turn corner real fast and punch the gas, you dont hit the traction limited as fast.. other wise, he gets worst gas mileage.. I always beat him in a straight line and I live in Chicago and we had one or two big snows this year and my IS350 with snow tires got through it all just fine..

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

By ALL means folks should see there...but they should read the whole thread where you ALSO insist, wrongly, that AWD is more important than proper tires....

Something that has been tested and proven as wrong.

Your quoted post also has you wrongly claiming snow tires outweigh the cost of AWD, when later in the same thread you're proven wrong on THAT TOO.


Fuel costs alone even out the cost of snows in RWD, at which point you have better SNOW performance than AWD without em...and you're still out $2500 up front....give snows to AWD and you're right back to $2500 more AND the higher gas costs.


I'd think you'd get tired of being proven wrong on virtually everything you post, but apparently not.



On the contrary- every time it came up before now you denied tires mattered more than drivetrain.

Because you had no idea what you were talking about.

It came up because you insisted RWD couldn't drive in snow. Which is demonstrably false if you put snows on.

THEN you claimed AWD was for safety, but added it's better than putting snow tires on.

Despite that fact your configuration is less safe than RWD with snow tires.

But you're wrong when you discuss stock conditions too... for example:

Here's you denying that tires matter...denying the stock RWD tires outhandle the AWD with stock all-seasons... yet we've proven that RWD with sport tires are vastly superior in wet conditions to AWD with all seasons... and that's the stock tire on both cars, remember? So now you're stuck with AWD losing in dry AND wet... guess you only have snow to fall back in now huh?

Great! let's do that!

Both cars get summer tires in non-winter, and both get winter tires in winter!

First- you're out $3500 up front. $2500 more for AWD, $1000 for summer performance tires to replace the all-seasons yours comes with. RWD already comes with summer tires... so you're behind to start with.

You'll be behind another $250 a year every year from added fuel costs.


After that lets consider weather conditions

Dry- (this is most of the time for the north, and south of the US):
RWD wins here thanks to less weight on a car that isn't traction limited.

Wet- (this is the next largest amount of time for the north and south):
RWD wins here too since summer tires offer excellent wet traction, more than enough for normal driving with only 200-300 hp regardless of drivetrain and with RWD you again you don't have extra weight being thrown around or having to be stopped... A potential exception would be if you wish to drive like a complete idiot and do something like floor it coming around a tight corner in a bunch of standing water while ALSO having VSC/TC turned off.... so if you'd like to chalk up "all sane driving in wet" to RWD and "trying to wreck your car in a flood" to AWD by all means do!

Snow-
Ah ha you think!

Well, first, this is pretty much never in the south... and it's a tiny minority of the year in the north... you are in DC for example-

You get 5.4 days. Per year. Of snow of an inch or more.

As car and driver shows, RWD with snows can accelerate (on non-steep inclines) just fine- and it handles and brakes better than AWD does thanks to less weight and the fact AWD doesn't help if you're not pressing the gas. We've even had person after person from Canada and other places that get FAR more snow than you and drive through it with RWD tell you this in addition to the objective testing from car mags.

So... 359.6 days a year your car loses pretty much across the board.

The other 5.4 days you can get up hills greater than 20% significantly better than RWD. That's the one and only place your car is a clear winner. In all other snow conditions you're not even ahead in the snow!

Kudos! You win for 1.4% of the year if you only EVER drive up steep hills and lose 98.6%! Assuming you ever drive in snow OTHER than steep hills your wins are even lower than 1.4% of the year.

(and I've spent a couple winters in DC- and the plows do a decent job... but lets be generous and assume the snow stays, ALWAYS, for 3 times the amount of time after it falls without being plowed.. you're still at about 4% of the year... versus the other 96% of the time without snow)
I'm glad we finally looked at a fair comparison for your situation!


Again- that's pretty much already covered. It'll lose to RWD by a couple tenths of a second. Because the car isn't traction limited.

k2sty1

took my IS250 to the track (IS350's only came out this year and there $78,000 here in australia)

went on the wet track and the skid pan, pretty fun, worth the 150$ i paid for about 6hours
went with some friends with more powerful cars tho
HSV Maloo (fastest stock ute in the world, apparently, 297kw)
Holden Commodore (6.0l V8)
IS-F (friends dad, sickest dad out! lol)
BMW M5 (E39)

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

Provided you have the space to store them, it's actually cheaper to buy a set of snow tires and wheels, and only wear them during the winter months when you consider the premium AWD adds on. It extends the life of both my summer and winter tires, since neither will be worn 12 months out of the year, but instead split for the seasons (as you neighbor in VA, that's between Dec - March for us).

It's also less 'painful', as they're created specifically for the environment I'm driving in, meaning they're exceptionally safer, and reduce the chance of me ending up in the side of a ditch, as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

The point isn't that AWD is bad or that RWD is inherently better for most of our uses (most daily driving is tame enough for neither to matter, performance-wise), but rather that you should be careful with how much confidence it inspires, which can be easily misplaced. I've seen too many people neglect both their responsibility as a driver and their tires, because they think two more drive-wheels will get them by. We had some flash snowstorms in our area this year, if you recall, where some AWD and RWD friends of mine learned just the opposite.

Summer tires are actually good in the rain, and again, proper traction in any weather is not just a matter of acceleration, but also deceleration and lateral movement. AWD, similar to ABS or stability control, are supplementary systems, but not intended as direct replacements-- all rely on the traction provided by the tires, as they're the only part of the car touching the ground.

And actually, I believe once you get on a course or strip (if not already), you'll realize this even more. It's both humbling and fun, if you're open to it.

Agreed, and also include off-roading, where one or more wheels may not be touching the ground, in which case it does make sense to have power available to the others. But our cars aren't designed for that, either.

autovation

iTrader: (1)

And I came into this thread looking for 0-60 and 1/4 mile times along with possibly some auto-x results comparing RWD to AWD...

Phresh2010

iTrader: (3)

^^ and instead you find this very entertaining disagreement LOL

GrandSedanFan

iTrader: (1)

Not that anybody gives as **** since Skippy McDumbass here started spewing forth with his ridiculousness again. Remember folks, this is the same opinionated fool who thinks that a clutch pedal is an anachronism which needs to die. Because people who buy Lotus Elises and Corvette Z06s are begging for SMG/DCTs.


My IS350 AWD went 13.7x at 99.xx MPH back to back to back at Atco. Left it in D, ECT normal, and cut 2.0 60 foots all day. Bone stock, 4k miles, no weight reduction, 270lb driver.

13.7@99mph at sea level.

So it's a high 13 car anywhere near sea level and a low 14 car in the mountains.


The entire county of Westchester, which is where 75% of the Lexus owners in New York reside, is nothing but hills. This past winter we got 60+ inches of snow. After the first 6 inches, the streets, plowed or not, just become covered with packed snow and ice and the plows just brush the new snow to side. Commutes consist of nothing but hill starts until you get to a parkway or interstate. Having owned AWD, FWD, RWD, on snow tires, summer tires, and all seasons, it is most convenient who treat cars merely as appliances to buy AWD and call it a day. And this "handful of days" business is nonsense. Because you know what those handful of days are? WORK DAYS. Days where some people need to make the money to afford nice things like Lexuses. And homes. For some people, calling out of work is not an option.

Your standard Lexus owner does zero of his/her own maintenance and can't be bothered to keep an extra set of wheels sitting around the house to change out when spring/fall arrives. They wouldn't even shop for winter wheels and tires. If they did, they'd most likely take the car to the dealership to have the wheels mounted, just because they have no interest in getting dirty and they've always gone to the dealership for "car stuff." This is why these things exist and are, quite frankly, necessary.

Jmags

iTrader: (1)

I'm in this county you speak of and I'm trying to get across that AWD does help a LOT more than just trying to start from a stop AND is better than a RWD with snow tires.

I'm sorry, but I've driven in all this snow this year and when the S hits the fan going 30mph around an uphill turn with MORE than just a 1/2 inch of snow on the road, AWD really shines in these moments, there's NO "I hope I make it" it's just power.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

People who buy Porsches and Ferraris are. Because they know they outperform cars with clutch pedals. Heck, F1 cars made the change years ago, production cars are finally catching up!

It's not surprising you're a fan of AWD, all-season tires, and clutch pedals though- you're going for the whole "things that make my car slower" collection!


I'm sure it is. Which is several tenths slower than a typical RWD 350.

Which is exactly what I said would be the result.




Man I'd love you see you back that insane claim up.

Westchester is about 5% of the population of NY state.

Yet somehow has 75% of the Lexus owners?

I'm pretty sure that stat was pulled from a pretty dark body cavity

I'd be willing to bet good money there's considerably more Lexus owners in Nassau and Suffolk than Westchester for example. And that's about entirely flat.

(Did I mention I grew up in NY?)

FWIW though Westchester only averages about 12-14 days of snow a year.

If you think 2 weeks of better hill climbing is worth $2500 up front and $250 a year in extra gas, and slower performance year round... well, you bought AWD, so clearly you think exactly that. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.


So you're saying the average Lexus owner is too stupid and lazy to get significantly better stopping and handling in all weather conditions by using the proper tires?

I suppose that might be true, but I'm not sure if "AWD with all-seasons is easier for lazy and stupid people" is a great endorsement of the product.

Especially when we already established it's still both more expensive and inferior to RWD with snow tires.

It's unfathomable to me that you'd think "I hope I can get up that hill in front of me" is a more important concern than "I hope I don't slam into the back of that car in front of me because I'm on crappy all-season tires"


Personally I have a higher opinion of Lexus owners than you though (well, most of em ) so I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they might want things like 20% shorter stopping distance in bad weather...which you'd need proper tires for.

This seems supported by all the folks with RWD ISes, many living much further north than you, who get around fine with snow tires. Seems they weren't too lazy to outfit their car properly after all.

Jmags

iTrader: (1)

It wasn't 2 weeks, snow was on the ground in heavy amounts from 2 days before Christmas till the begining of march. schools is my town had NINE snow days!

anthrax144

I'll have to admit, I did miss ONE day of work this year because my car couldn't get around in the snow. And I have the stock summer tires on my RWD 350. Don't think I'll be trading it in for an AWD 350 anytime soon.

Jmags

iTrader: (1)

In this pic, I moved the bronco out first. Then the 250 AWD.

Don't care what kinda tires you have on a RWD car, it's not going anywhere in this amount of snow.

The 250 struggled a bit but still made it around even in this deep of snow.

Trza

This thread is getting out of control! haha...it's like a bad car accident...I can't help but to log in and read the back and forth banter. I guess I can try to get back on topic here.

I bought AWD clearly because I need it. I had a RWD Bimmer with Blizzaks and it simply did not cut it in this climate. 3 seasons of white knuckle driving and getting stuck here or there was enough for me. It wasnt even an option to take it to the mountains. Our SUV was used for that. And please, I'm sure since you have never been stuck in snow before that you are clearly a better driver, so no need to bring that up But I would love for you to come hang out in our -35 degree celcius winters with multiple feet of snow to try it out just for kicks Even with traction control, the tail would drift out on the highways, not to mention the deep snow that we have for 5-6 months of the year. The piece of mind I get knowing that I don't have to worry about getting stuck or stranded with my son is worth the higher price. I have been on both sides of this argument. RWD with winter tires and AWD with winter tires. But I don't see this as an added cost but more of an investment in my family's safety as well as my investment, although a horrible one, in my car.

AWD with winter tires is incredible...do I mind paying higher gas prices and a higher premium for AWD, no. That's why I bought a lexus and not a Honda. To be honest, I didn't even look at the fuel efficiency, I don't care for it at all. I don't mean to sound snobby, but I knew what I was getting into...a high horsepower AWD sedan so the old adage is true here, you gotta pay to play. I find it funny when people complain about gas prices if they drive big heavy luxury vehicles or suv's.

The bottom line is that everyone buys what they want for their perceived need. To argue against a person's decision seems useless to me. I can't see all the AWD guys rushing out to sell their cars and jump into RWD's simply because of Kurtz's information. Don't get me wrong, a lot of his info is true, however it is true to that test or that situation that it was put against on that day. No matter what car and driver says, sure, your RWD with winter tires will be sufficient in my climate, but my AWD with winters will be even better...and I hope so, since I just paid $2500 dollars more for it

Finally to answer the question of the original post. NO, I will not be tracking my AWD, I didnt buy an AWD 4 door sedan to run down a track. I bought it for the comfort, safety, reliability and of course its sexy good looks. So it looks like with roughly 60 posts in, we have 1 member who has tracked their AWD IS 350

Trza

Jmags, where do you live man! Thats what I woke up to every morning with winter. Except my car slept in the garage every night.

It was a record snowfall year for us this winter. I actually looked forward to driving every morning and ripping through all the snow...but Id imagine that Bronco would be a fine winter vehicle as well

autovation

iTrader: (1)

I would expect 1.6-1.8 60' times for an AWD launched correctly. This would transfer to sub 13.3 sec 1/4 mile times (especially with a driver in the 170lb. range.)

With a trap speed of 99mph, it should run similar times as a Syclone which turns 13.0-13.3 stock.

What this means is an AWD IS350 launched correctly should be showing a RWD IS350 its taillights until about 80-90mph (i.e. most stoplight races).