RWD vs AWD
06-23-11, 01:25 PM
#31
Pole Position
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^^^ pretty true. ive seen jags sliding from the rear going @ about 1 mph on a slightly incline banking turn on a snowy day... i cant confirm on the tire though. i think winter tire will help rwd to some extent. awd is a safer bet if you are not a good driver and/or dont have the time to swap into winter tires at winter time. i think fwd is a parasite of automotive industry... companies make fwd to save cost. u cannot turn and accelerate safely under same wheels... if you drive aggressively...
06-23-11, 01:25 PM
#32
I disagree man. I've lived where it snows my whole life. I've driven all 3 types of vehicles in the snow. I gurantee if you take a RWD vehicle with snow tires and set it next to a plain old run in the mill FWD vehicle with regular tires and set them both at the bottom of a hill and say "GO", that RWD is going to be spinning it's wheels.
This isn't an opinion thing.
I mean you are factually, provably, wrong.
I even posted the direct quotes from an objective, authoritative, source that tested this.
On grades up to 10-15% the RWD car went right up the hill in the snow.
And the FWD car didn't do significantly better than the RWD car did.... both having problems once the grade got steeper:
Both four-wheel-drivers, even shod with stock all-season tires, were able to ascend the 30-percent grade, whereas the 2wd cars could only conquer the 10- and 15-percent grades.
See? Your opinion is trumped by actual fact.
This was the only test where the RWD/FWD cars actually failed at any task in snow or ice when given proper tires. Climbing hills greater than 15%.
Which isn't a common thing most drivers ever do if they don't live in the mountains.
You can certainly believe you aren't comfortable driving RWD in the snow... but to suggest the vehicle isn't capable is simply not true.
I'm not talking about the idiots whom think they can drive fast in the snow, yeah they'll always get stuck. I'm talking, getting going from a red light, RWD will be useless...i don't care what tires you got, and i don't care what a magazine reports. I'm talking real world driving experience.
You're wrong.
Not even by a little bit.
My first car was a 1973 Pontiac LeMans. With a 5.7 liter V8 engine.
RWD.
It did what you describe perfectly well with snow tires.
I had a similar car when I lived in ontario canada where they get a bit of snow you might have heard. And it also drove fine in the snow with proper tires.
Not only does car and driver say you're wrong, real life does too.
But here's C&D again-
On ice, with the traction-control system switched on, the rwd Benz could barely move on stock tires, but it launched easily on winter tires
Again- I've driven after snowfalls that deep in Canada. With RWD.
It was just fine.
Granted they did plow the roads decently well up there during and after snowfalls... but honestly, after proper tires, vehicle clearance will matter more in deep snow though- which is why any sport sedan doesn't make a ton of sense compared to a truck if you're regularly driving in deep snow someplace they do NOT clear the roads much...
But are you claiming that nobody where you live ever went anywhere from December through Mid-March if they didn't own a 4x4 truck for all the decades that cars sold in the US were virtually all RWD?'
and ALL of the above ignores that the OP is, indeed, from Florida... where nobody gets 12+ inches of snow
Last edited by Kurtz; 06-23-11 at 01:47 PM.
06-23-11, 01:46 PM
#33
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Not going to debate ya man. I don't have time to sit and read studies. I just know what i know from being behind the wheel. I can tell you're not going to let the issue drop, so i will. I agree to disagree. Can we at least agree that Lexus rules?
06-23-11, 02:01 PM
#36
But if you don't believe me how about your eyes?
Here's a guy in an M3 driving to work with snow tires-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uui4HgHrug
Don't think that's enough snow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XofVN44Qd10
that is two RWD cars in a foot of snow.
They're drifting for much of it (on purpose) but several times in the video when they're done with a drift they straighten the car out, and go in a straight line back to the other side.
Just fine.
With RWD.
In 12 inches of snow.
You know, like you said was impossible.
And those are two old RWD beaters... a modern car will have no problem with proper tires.
Seriously- if a driver can't move a RWD car in some snow, with proper tires, the fault is with the driver, not the car.
06-23-11, 02:08 PM
#37
Man you don't need AWD in South Florida. Get the RWD. My car has no issues in the rain.. get good tires.
And I agree with Kurtz 100%. I'm from Chicago originally. Snow tires on RWD work just fine.
And I agree with Kurtz 100%. I'm from Chicago originally. Snow tires on RWD work just fine.
06-23-11, 03:45 PM
#38
And you can just go back to the other thread where I showed you the objective testing that found that proper tires are all you need in ALL winter conditions except going up steep hills.
RWD with proper tires had no problems in snow, ice, etc on anything less than a 20% or greater grade hill. Since you like pictures, here's what such a hill looks like:
If you get a lot of snow and the roads look like that, sure, AWD!
otherwise, not so much
From car and driver:
Regarding ice on NORMAL roads:
On the handling of AWD vs RWD with proper tires: (this was after having tested slalom and skidpad in the snow)
On AWD vs RWD in general-
RWD with proper tires had no problems in snow, ice, etc on anything less than a 20% or greater grade hill. Since you like pictures, here's what such a hill looks like:
If you get a lot of snow and the roads look like that, sure, AWD!
otherwise, not so much
From car and driver:
Regarding ice on NORMAL roads:
On the handling of AWD vs RWD with proper tires: (this was after having tested slalom and skidpad in the snow)
On AWD vs RWD in general-
You can bark all you want, I have a friend who works at a tire store and had blizzacks on his bmw. He called ME for a ride to work, claiming he couldn't get out of his plowed driveway, because it's a hill. I had no problem driving up and down it.
06-23-11, 03:46 PM
#39
my $.02.... i don't think how deep the snow affects the driving characteristics of the car (1cm-2ft=BS), it's how icy/slippery the road is. with fresh powder a car still has a decent amount of traction. it's when that powder becomes packed and turns into ice. now that's a problem. any car regardless, on an icy road (unless you have studded tires or chains) will be fishtailing and sliding everywhere...
06-23-11, 03:47 PM
#40
He lives in a dream world. It's ok.
06-23-11, 03:49 PM
#41
my $.02.... i don't think how deep the snow affects the driving characteristics of the car (1cm-2ft=BS), it's how icy/slippery the road is. with fresh powder a car still has a decent amount of traction. it's when that powder becomes packed and turns into ice. now that's a problem. any car regardless, on an icy road (unless you have studded tires or chains) will be fishtailing and sliding everywhere...
06-24-11, 06:24 AM
#42
At least that's what everyone I knew growing up in NY did... and the folks I knew when I lived in Canada too..
Maybe you where you live everyone is just SHOCKED AND SURPISED every winter... "What is the strange white stuff that we have never seen before despite it coming down EVERY SINGLE YEAR?.... if only we had known!"
And in that world RWD does outperform AWD on all-seasons for everything except climbing steep hills.
It's the same world C&D lives in apparently since when they tested them they came to the same conclusions.... here's their conclusion again BTW, with a bit bolded by me-
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.
Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.
Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.
because the traction between the tire and the road is vastly more important than how many wheels have drivetrain power sent to them.
If you live in a different world where physics doesn't apply you probably have some awesome youtube videos to post of stuff floating in the air and whatnot... throw up some links!
Last edited by Kurtz; 06-24-11 at 06:44 AM.
06-24-11, 01:51 PM
#44
I'm not sure what people did around here a few years ago, but I was born and raised in Saint-Petersburg Russia and over there just about every car was RWD. The only way people got around was by having studded tires. You could forget about driving in the winter unless you had studded tires.
Now, compare an AWD with winter tires to a RWD with winter tires and an AWD will outperform RWD in just about any test. Maybe not stopping due to being heavier by a few pounds, but still won't be a problem.
In CT, I've driven FWD cars with all season tires and had traction problems. Still managed to get around but not very safely. Then I had an AWD Subaru WRX and it got around same town in same conditions way better with BALD summer performance tires. I needed more room for stopping, but traction was miles better. And that car didn't even have traction control or any snow modes like the Lexus.
With that said, it's very tough to get my AWD Lexus sideways in snow with all seasons and traction control on in snow mode. Try it, it's practically impossible. I can't say the same for RWD.
Now, compare an AWD with winter tires to a RWD with winter tires and an AWD will outperform RWD in just about any test. Maybe not stopping due to being heavier by a few pounds, but still won't be a problem.
In CT, I've driven FWD cars with all season tires and had traction problems. Still managed to get around but not very safely. Then I had an AWD Subaru WRX and it got around same town in same conditions way better with BALD summer performance tires. I needed more room for stopping, but traction was miles better. And that car didn't even have traction control or any snow modes like the Lexus.
With that said, it's very tough to get my AWD Lexus sideways in snow with all seasons and traction control on in snow mode. Try it, it's practically impossible. I can't say the same for RWD.
06-25-11, 12:04 AM
#45
We need to participate and communicate in a way that is respectful to the opinions of others. It does us no good when someone asks a question and we start jawing at each other back and forth trying to figure out who is right and who is wrong. I admit I have fallen into that same level of trying to be right and jabbing back and forth. I have also learned that it's really counterproductive and I'm embarrassed by all the back and forth. What we should be doing is promoting a sense of community and sharing knowledge with each other.
We should spend less time trying to be right and defending our position and spend more time helping people who ask us questions. We should also stop ridiculing folks for asking a question that has already been asked. If their posting annoys you then ignore it altogether or redirect them to the proper link if you can. Otherwise, we run the risk of alienating new members. The same person who you called an idiot for creating a thread that already exists may be the same person who helps you out of a jam with a situation on your car. I know we all have the capacity to help each other so let's stop all the back and forth and focus on the question being asked.
We should spend less time trying to be right and defending our position and spend more time helping people who ask us questions. We should also stop ridiculing folks for asking a question that has already been asked. If their posting annoys you then ignore it altogether or redirect them to the proper link if you can. Otherwise, we run the risk of alienating new members. The same person who you called an idiot for creating a thread that already exists may be the same person who helps you out of a jam with a situation on your car. I know we all have the capacity to help each other so let's stop all the back and forth and focus on the question being asked.