Honda Civic vs Lexus IS250?
10-08-11, 03:08 PM
#77
I'm sorry but I would have to disagree. As someone who lives in Michigan I'd love to see you try to drive my SC300 in winter. Sure on the days that the roads have been plowed and properly salted and dirty laid yeah its ok. But welcome to most of winter with a state that is trying to pinch every penny. If I had to place my career in the hands of my rear wheel drive car, I would miss probably 20 days of work in winter. After a big snow storm you are looking at at least a day before your road is plowed. Now closer in the city you will have faster clean up times in winter. But at the end of the day your spending 30k + and hoping the county takes care of your roads, no thanks. Now I personally have a 4 wheel drive truck for winter but anyone with just one car had better look into getting an AWD.
10-08-11, 03:11 PM
#78
I'm sorry but I would have to disagree. As someone who lives in Michigan I'd love to see you try to drive my SC300 in winter. Sure on the days that the roads have been plowed and properly salted and dirty laid yeah its ok. But welcome to most of winter with a state that is trying to pinch every penny. If I had to place my career in the hands of my rear wheel drive car, I would miss probably 20 days of work in winter. After a big snow storm you are looking at at least a day before your road is plowed. Now closer in the city you will have faster clean up times in winter. But at the end of the day your spending 30k + and hoping the county takes care of your roads, no thanks. Now I personally have a 4 wheel drive truck for winter but anyone with just one car had better look into getting an AWD.
10-08-11, 03:55 PM
#80
I'm confused as to what you're disputing. You seem to be saying that Kurtz didn't think about the fact that "some of us dont got money to spend like that" on winter tires....but apparently those same people have the money to spend on an AWD model, which commands a significant price premium over RWD?
Kurtz is saying that in most cases, simply putting winter tires on a RWD provides the snow performance you need without having to get AWD. You seem to be taking issue with that by pointing out that some people don't have money to buy winter tires, so they buy AWD.
But see the price premium of an AWD model over a RWD is far greater than the cost of winter tires. So it's actually more often cost efficient to get RWD with snow tires instead of AWD with any tires.
Kurtz is saying that in most cases, simply putting winter tires on a RWD provides the snow performance you need without having to get AWD. You seem to be taking issue with that by pointing out that some people don't have money to buy winter tires, so they buy AWD.
But see the price premium of an AWD model over a RWD is far greater than the cost of winter tires. So it's actually more often cost efficient to get RWD with snow tires instead of AWD with any tires.
10-08-11, 04:59 PM
#84
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I guess Caymandrive, Juice, ToothDoc, Gernby aren't meant to race. Yet, they have one of the fastest IS350 on the list..
http://www.dragtimes.com/Lexus--IS350-Drag-Racing.html
I guess a 0-60 in 4.5 second car isn't meant to race.
10-08-11, 09:51 PM
#88
well said. good tires or not logically when someone lives in a state where snow is crazy of course the smart thing to do is buy AWD. why would u want to risk it and say oh imma buy RWD with some sweet tires to get through 12+ inches of snow. that sounds pretty logical. not really
All else being equal, the same car with AWD and all-seasons will perform worse than with RWD and snow tires when in snow.
The marketing kool aid for AWD is pretty tasty though so you get lots of folks in northern states dropping 3-5k more for AWD, then driving through winter on crappy all-seasons... and as a bonus getting worse mileage 365 days a year too.
But you're paying more than if you had gone RWD with snow tires.
The amount extra you spend in gas, 365 days a year, pushing 4 wheels instead of 2 with the engine, would more than pay for a set of snow tires every few years.
Go back to the long thread a couple months ago on this topic... numerous tests were posted (from sources like Tire Rack, Car and Driver, and others) where they tested things like AWD vs. FWD vs. RWD with snow and all-seasons... as I said, they generally found RWD with snow tires did better overall than AWD with all-season tires... and overall suggested that unless you're frequently climbing very steep hills (20-30% grade) you will be better off with a RWD car using proper tires than taking the weight, cost, and mileage hit of AWD...even if you live in the north.... apart from climbing steep hills or drag racing on ice the AWD system was more of a drawback (in areas like braking and handling) than a benefit.
From the C&D article for example: (bold added)
Originally Posted by Car and Driver
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.
Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.
Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.
I'd encourage folks wanting to continue to tire debate to take it to that AWD/RWD thread though so folks can get back to debating which mid-15 second car wins the race :P
10-08-11, 10:22 PM
#90
You failed to read I said I have winter tires for each car I had. Not all seasons. So once again fail. Rwd with winter tires does not compare to Awd with winter tires. Once again I've owned a civic which is fwd s2000 rwd and sti Awd. Each had a set of winter wheels with blizzaks. I doubt you've had driven all 3 drive trains with blizzaks to even make such a claim. Idiot. Awd with blizzaks guaranteed will run circles around rwd with the same tires anyday. Come to a state with 12 inches plus of snow with your rwd and winter tires and then talk
because tires matter more than drivetrain.
All else being equal, the same car with AWD and all-seasons will perform worse than with RWD and snow tires when in snow.
The marketing kool aid for AWD is pretty tasty though so you get lots of folks in northern states dropping 3-5k more for AWD, then driving through winter on crappy all-seasons... and as a bonus getting worse mileage 365 days a year too.
But you're paying more than if you had gone RWD with snow tires.
The amount extra you spend in gas, 365 days a year, pushing 4 wheels instead of 2 with the engine, would more than pay for a set of snow tires every few years.
That's simply not the case though.
Go back to the long thread a couple months ago on this topic... numerous tests were posted (from sources like Tire Rack, Car and Driver, and others) where they tested things like AWD vs. FWD vs. RWD with snow and all-seasons... as I said, they generally found RWD with snow tires did better overall than AWD with all-season tires... and overall suggested that unless you're frequently climbing very steep hills (20-30% grade) you will be better off with a RWD car using proper tires than taking the weight, cost, and mileage hit of AWD...even if you live in the north.... apart from climbing steep hills or drag racing on ice the AWD system was more of a drawback (in areas like braking and handling) than a benefit.
From the C&D article for example: (bold added)
I'd encourage folks wanting to continue to tire debate to take it to that AWD/RWD thread though so folks can get back to debating which mid-15 second car wins the race :P
All else being equal, the same car with AWD and all-seasons will perform worse than with RWD and snow tires when in snow.
The marketing kool aid for AWD is pretty tasty though so you get lots of folks in northern states dropping 3-5k more for AWD, then driving through winter on crappy all-seasons... and as a bonus getting worse mileage 365 days a year too.
But you're paying more than if you had gone RWD with snow tires.
The amount extra you spend in gas, 365 days a year, pushing 4 wheels instead of 2 with the engine, would more than pay for a set of snow tires every few years.
That's simply not the case though.
Go back to the long thread a couple months ago on this topic... numerous tests were posted (from sources like Tire Rack, Car and Driver, and others) where they tested things like AWD vs. FWD vs. RWD with snow and all-seasons... as I said, they generally found RWD with snow tires did better overall than AWD with all-season tires... and overall suggested that unless you're frequently climbing very steep hills (20-30% grade) you will be better off with a RWD car using proper tires than taking the weight, cost, and mileage hit of AWD...even if you live in the north.... apart from climbing steep hills or drag racing on ice the AWD system was more of a drawback (in areas like braking and handling) than a benefit.
From the C&D article for example: (bold added)
I'd encourage folks wanting to continue to tire debate to take it to that AWD/RWD thread though so folks can get back to debating which mid-15 second car wins the race :P