Did you consider a bmw or mecedes prior
01-08-13, 04:19 PM
#47
Very funny how everyone states the BMW interior is so bad, yet the next gen Lexus' including my buddys '13 LS seems to go towards BMW and BENZ' styling in regards to navi and control.
MAJOR BIAS HERE!
I am a previous owner of a Lexus IS350 and there's no way you can say the IS interior is superior!
VS.
Although in terms of long term reliability then clearly anything japanese is a better choice....regardless of what vs what.
MAJOR BIAS HERE!
I am a previous owner of a Lexus IS350 and there's no way you can say the IS interior is superior!
VS.
Although in terms of long term reliability then clearly anything japanese is a better choice....regardless of what vs what.
Likewise anyone been in a 2013 ES lately? Just a disaster. To pass the ES on as a luxury car with those materials is an absolute slap in the face to consumers and Lexus should be ashamed of themselves.
01-08-13, 06:13 PM
#48
Very funny how everyone states the BMW interior is so bad, yet the next gen Lexus' including my buddys '13 LS seems to go towards BMW and BENZ' styling in regards to navi and control.
MAJOR BIAS HERE!
I am a previous owner of a Lexus IS350 and there's no way you can say the IS interior is superior!
MAJOR BIAS HERE!
I am a previous owner of a Lexus IS350 and there's no way you can say the IS interior is superior!
01-09-13, 12:34 AM
#51
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: california
Posts: 2,970
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wouldn't, unless you were to compare a next-gen (8 speed) 335i with the IS350, which is what you started out by doing.
At that point comparing the 330, the current model in 2006 when the IS350 came out, would be "fair" by the same standard you compare the current IS350 to the next-gen 335i that just recently came out.
At that point comparing the 330, the current model in 2006 when the IS350 came out, would be "fair" by the same standard you compare the current IS350 to the next-gen 335i that just recently came out.
You could replace all the F30 335 with the E90 335 and the points are still valid (minus the 34MPG/8AT). It still provides a better overall driving experience than a IS350.
That's what I said in my original post. I just can't figure what that is since they're overpriced with inferior reliability, interior, and resale
You're wrong.
You need to add a number of options to the 335i to even match base-model 350s. Back in 2010 I ran the exact pricing comparison of a 350 against a comparable 335i (they were basically identically optioned except no vented seats in the BMW since they didn't offer them) and the BMW was over $9000... (when I ran it again just before the 335i Gen change it had dropped to a bit over 7k mainly due to not charging for the automatic I think)
what I recall was the most insane was a 328, vastly inferior to the IS350 in performance, was still like $3000 more than an IS350 once you comparably equipped em.
I'm honestly baffled how BMW sells any cars, let alone so damn many of em, with that pricing... though the fact they supposedly LEASE a lot more than they sell might have something to do with it.
You're wrong.
You need to add a number of options to the 335i to even match base-model 350s. Back in 2010 I ran the exact pricing comparison of a 350 against a comparable 335i (they were basically identically optioned except no vented seats in the BMW since they didn't offer them) and the BMW was over $9000... (when I ran it again just before the 335i Gen change it had dropped to a bit over 7k mainly due to not charging for the automatic I think)
what I recall was the most insane was a 328, vastly inferior to the IS350 in performance, was still like $3000 more than an IS350 once you comparably equipped em.
I'm honestly baffled how BMW sells any cars, let alone so damn many of em, with that pricing... though the fact they supposedly LEASE a lot more than they sell might have something to do with it.
To be honest, if we are talking about cars in this caliber, a couple thousands buck +/- isn't really a deal breaker if the driving experience is far more superior than another car.
Here's my earlier post on it-
Invoice on a stripped car is already $3500 more for BMW... and that's with a lot less standard features... BMW needs to add the comfort access package, the ipod/usb package, and the premium package to even be comparable to a BASE IS350. That already puts you spending nearly $8000 more on the BMW.
Oh, wait, I forgot to add the automatic and the sport steering wheel with paddle shifters... that's another ~$1400...
So $42,850 INVOICE for the BMW... the Lexus is $33,833. About $9000 more for the BMW.
It gets worse if you want climate seats... about $500 for just heated on the BMW... $236 for heated and vented on the lexus... (and woodgrain too, which BMW wants more for).
Invoice on a stripped car is already $3500 more for BMW... and that's with a lot less standard features... BMW needs to add the comfort access package, the ipod/usb package, and the premium package to even be comparable to a BASE IS350. That already puts you spending nearly $8000 more on the BMW.
Oh, wait, I forgot to add the automatic and the sport steering wheel with paddle shifters... that's another ~$1400...
So $42,850 INVOICE for the BMW... the Lexus is $33,833. About $9000 more for the BMW.
It gets worse if you want climate seats... about $500 for just heated on the BMW... $236 for heated and vented on the lexus... (and woodgrain too, which BMW wants more for).
I didn't even know there were iPod cable/USB package in 2008. For sure it didn't come standard because my car didn't have it. Premium package for BMW includes BMW assist, bluetooth system, lumbar support, real leather, digital compass, auto dim mirrors and exterior, memory seats and garage door opener. The bolded were not included in a base IS350.
From the top of my head when I configured a 2007 335i.
-MSRP- $38,900
-navi, premium package, automatic transmission, sports package (includes paddles, sports seats, increase top speed limiter, sports steering wheel, 18 inch wheels and also the side mirrors will automatically come down on reverse), comfort package
Came out to $45,500 + free maintenance package. Only thing missing really is the heated front seats vs my IS350.
My IS350, looking at my window sticker:
-MSRP- 36,765
-navi, premium package, 18 inch wheels, rear spoiler, HID package
Came out to $43k
It is obvious that BMW and Lexus has different options. We can nickel and dime all day what 335 comes standard and IS350 doesn't . 335 has automatic rain sensor, adapative light control, automatic AC (from what I remembered, the AC turns on when car is off automatically at specific degree), HID. I guess since rain sensors don't come standard on a IS350, I need to add the whole ML package to make it fair. That is exactly what you are doing.
Furthermore, the paddle shifter actually works on the 335 unlike the IS350. Do we even have a option for sports seats ? I know the side mirrors that came down on reverse and memory seats on the IS350 only comes with ML package and cannot be purchased separately. Also, the IS350 did not have a option for fold down rear seats.
Last edited by smokyis350; 01-09-13 at 12:38 AM.
01-09-13, 10:30 AM
#52
I'm kind of a strange case because I went out car shopping intending to buy a Toyota Prius (I had a ~100 mile daily commute at the time) but somehow ended up with an IS350 at the end of the day following a coin toss.
The IS has the objective edge over the C class and 3 series for reasons already stated: mostly reliability and cost/lower depreciation. When you pay a cost premium for BMW or MB, you're doing it mostly for the intangibles: how the car "feels," styling and the brand. Let's face it, Mercedes and BMW are seen by the general public as "better" cars. This is reflected in the sales numbers.
That being said, I've loved my IS (obviously). The cost of ownership has been extremely low, and I always liked the design both inside and out. I am currently in the process of selling my IS and for my next car the E-class coupe is at the top of my list, followed by the M3 and IS-F. My current plan is to get a new E-class coupe and then return to Lexus in a few years when they (hopefully) release the next generation IS-F in a coupe.
The IS has the objective edge over the C class and 3 series for reasons already stated: mostly reliability and cost/lower depreciation. When you pay a cost premium for BMW or MB, you're doing it mostly for the intangibles: how the car "feels," styling and the brand. Let's face it, Mercedes and BMW are seen by the general public as "better" cars. This is reflected in the sales numbers.
That being said, I've loved my IS (obviously). The cost of ownership has been extremely low, and I always liked the design both inside and out. I am currently in the process of selling my IS and for my next car the E-class coupe is at the top of my list, followed by the M3 and IS-F. My current plan is to get a new E-class coupe and then return to Lexus in a few years when they (hopefully) release the next generation IS-F in a coupe.
01-09-13, 11:19 AM
#55
the E-class coupe is very nice and much, much classier than the 2IS (i know you can't compare apples and oranges, but given the context of your situation, you really can't escape from that). given how much you loved your 2IS, however, you won't "love" the E-class coupe as much.
01-10-13, 08:50 AM
#56
It would be pretty pointless comparing invoice price since prices vary by location. And specifically in California, there were only 2 IS350 available in the whole area (5 local lexus dealership). The dealer would not even get anywhere close to invoice. To not complicate things further, MSRP is a much easier comparison.
I've never in my life bought, or even negotiated, a car price based on MSRP. Invoice is the only number that matters because it compares what the cars ACTUALLY cost.
And FYI at the time I bought my IS350 (fall of 07) I had 2 CA dealers who would sell it to me for $500 over invoice, I was about to buy a plane ticket untl I found a local dealer on the east coast willing to match that.
It is obvious that BMW and Lexus has different options. We can nickel and dime all day what 335 comes standard and IS350 doesn't . 335 has automatic rain sensor, adapative light control, automatic AC (from what I remembered, the AC turns on when car is off automatically at specific degree), HID. I guess since rain sensors don't come standard on a IS350, I need to add the whole ML package to make it fair. That is exactly what you are doing.
The ML package gives you nav and ML. That's it. It has nothing to do with any feature you mention.
The sport package gave you rain sensing wipers, AFS lights, HIDs, plus the memory seats, auto-tilt side mirrors, sport suspension, and more...
Furthermore, the paddle shifter actually works on the 335 unlike the IS350. Do we even have a option for sports seats ? I know the side mirrors that came down on reverse and memory seats on the IS350 only comes with ML package and cannot be purchased separately. Also, the IS350 did not have a option for fold down rear seats.
and again, ML has nothing to do with anything other than sound and nav. All the other features you mention came in either the old sport package or the luxury package.
From the top of my head when I configured a 2007 335i.
-MSRP- $38,900
-navi, premium package, automatic transmission, sports package (includes paddles, sports seats, increase top speed limiter, sports steering wheel, 18 inch wheels and also the side mirrors will automatically come down on reverse), comfort package
Came out to $45,500 + free maintenance package. Only thing missing really is the heated front seats vs my IS350.
My IS350, looking at my window sticker:
-MSRP- 36,765
-navi, premium package, 18 inch wheels, rear spoiler, HID package
Came out to $43k
-MSRP- $38,900
-navi, premium package, automatic transmission, sports package (includes paddles, sports seats, increase top speed limiter, sports steering wheel, 18 inch wheels and also the side mirrors will automatically come down on reverse), comfort package
Came out to $45,500 + free maintenance package. Only thing missing really is the heated front seats vs my IS350.
My IS350, looking at my window sticker:
-MSRP- 36,765
-navi, premium package, 18 inch wheels, rear spoiler, HID package
Came out to $43k
And based on invoice pricing the 335i was 7-9 grand more than the IS350 comparably equipped (I think the only options on the 350 I compared were sport package and park assist... you needed like 4 or 5 different option package adds to get the BMW comparable).
You're right about the folding rear seats though- we can cross that off versus the non-available vented fronts on the IS I suppose.
Point was, even a 328i comparably equipped was MORE than an IS350... by a couple grand.
Which is crazy.
01-10-13, 11:44 AM
#57
Lexus Champion
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: california
Posts: 2,970
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It really wouldn't, because it reflects how much profit the car company wants, not the cost of the car.
I've never in my life bought, or even negotiated, a car price based on MSRP. Invoice is the only number that matters because it compares what the cars ACTUALLY cost.
And FYI at the time I bought my IS350 (fall of 07) I had 2 CA dealers who would sell it to me for $500 over invoice, I was about to buy a plane ticket untl I found a local dealer on the east coast willing to match that.
I've never in my life bought, or even negotiated, a car price based on MSRP. Invoice is the only number that matters because it compares what the cars ACTUALLY cost.
And FYI at the time I bought my IS350 (fall of 07) I had 2 CA dealers who would sell it to me for $500 over invoice, I was about to buy a plane ticket untl I found a local dealer on the east coast willing to match that.
Which dealer in CA? I was looking and bought my IS350 in spring of 08.
Did you catch where I did this comparison in 2010? USB, Ipod, and BT were all standard on the IS then.
Uh... already covered BT... the rest (and a ton more) come in the sport package for the Lexus.... which is what my final price comparison that reached 9k was using (I just pointed out even the base model has more for less money).
Wheels: 18" x 8" Front/18" x 8.5" Rear Alum. Alloy5-spoke.
Tires: P225/40YR18 Front/P255/40YR18
Rear SummerSport Tuned Suspension
Bi-Xenon HID Headlamps w/AFS & Auto Level
Perforated Leather Seat TrimHeated & Ventilated Front Bucket Seats
Lexus Memory SystemIncludes driver's and front passenger's seat 3-position memory.
Alloy Brake & Accelerator Pedals
Power Tilt/Telescopic Steering Wheel w/Memory
Rain-Sensing Wipers
Huh...?
The ML package gives you nav and ML. That's it. It has nothing to do with any feature you mention.
The sport package gave you rain sensing wipers, AFS lights, HIDs, plus the memory seats, auto-tilt side mirrors, sport suspension, and more...
The ML package gives you nav and ML. That's it. It has nothing to do with any feature you mention.
The sport package gave you rain sensing wipers, AFS lights, HIDs, plus the memory seats, auto-tilt side mirrors, sport suspension, and more...
Perforated Leather Seat TrimHeated & Ventilated Front Bucket Seats
Lexus Memory SystemIncludes driver's and front passenger's seat 3-position memory.
Bi-Xenon HID Headlamps w/AFS & Auto Level
Outside Auto-Dimming Electrochromic MirrorsIncludes memory and reverse tilt-down.
Power Tilt/Telescopic Steering Wheel w/Memory
Rain-Sensing WipersPower SunshadeBird's Eye Maple Interior Trim
The F-sport models offer sport seats (but you lose the vented seating- still get heated though)
and again, ML has nothing to do with anything other than sound and nav. All the other features you mention came in either the old sport package or the luxury package.
and again, ML has nothing to do with anything other than sound and nav. All the other features you mention came in either the old sport package or the luxury package.
My point was memory seats and mirror tilt feature are only available in a $3500 luxury package and they are unable to be purchased separately or in a much cheaper option.
And based on invoice pricing the 335i was 7-9 grand more than the IS350 comparably equipped (I think the only options on the 350 I compared were sport package and park assist... you needed like 4 or 5 different option package adds to get the BMW comparable).
You're right about the folding rear seats though- we can cross that off versus the non-available vented fronts on the IS I suppose.
Point was, even a 328i comparably equipped was MORE than an IS350... by a couple grand.
Which is crazy.
You're right about the folding rear seats though- we can cross that off versus the non-available vented fronts on the IS I suppose.
Point was, even a 328i comparably equipped was MORE than an IS350... by a couple grand.
Which is crazy.
335:
-MSRP- $38,900
-navi-$2100
-premium package- $2500
- automatic transmission-1275
- sports package-$1700
-comfort package-$500
$45,275 + free maintenance package (4 years/50k miles).
IS350:
-MSRP- 36,765
-luxury package-$3500
-navi-$2550
-18" wheels- $830
-$43,645
This is the closest configuration I could get the IS350 vs 335 in terms of options. They are nearly almost identical with a minor options missing on the 335 like heated seats, power rear sun shade, and power tilt steering wheel. While the IS350 is missing options like automatic AC, sports seats, top speed limiter increase, (max on IS350 is 142MPH vs 335 149MPH), and BMW assist.
So how the heck did you get $9000?
01-10-13, 06:13 PM
#59
Invoice is the price you negotiate from for that second one, or at least the one you should use if you don't want to overpay for the car....so we'll use that.
No, it didn't... see, you're using MSRP again... invoice was $3044
It wouldn't need to... it was standard on the 2010 model I was comparing.
Sport and Luxury packages are IDENTICAL except for:
Sport package adds sport suspension and aluminum scuff plates, but does NOT have woodgrain or power rear sunshade
Lux has woodgrain and power rear sunshade, but no sport suspension (and illum. not alum. scuff plates).
Invoice is about what the DEALER paid for it, so it's the ACTUAL cost of the car, and close to what you should pay for it.
This is the closest configuration I could get the IS350 vs 335 in terms of options. They are nearly almost identical with a minor options missing on the 335 like heated seats, power rear sun shade, and power tilt steering wheel. While the IS350 is missing options like automatic AC, sports seats, top speed limiter increase, (max on IS350 is 142MPH vs 335 149MPH), and BMW assist.
So how the heck did you get $9000?
So how the heck did you get $9000?
because those were the actual numbers back in 2010. As I said it was closer to $7000 when I checked again in 2011 because they stopped charging $1400 (invoice) for an automatic on the BMW.
Sadly Edmunds does not allow you to see vehicle pricing on new 2011 BMWs anymore or I'd just post the detailed comparison once again to prove it.
AH! wait!
Internet wayback machine!
That let me get 2011 BMW pricing anyway so the right generation
Invoice base model- $39540
Premium Package (4-way power adjustable front seat lumbar support; Dakota leather upholstery; Auto-dimming inside rearview mirror with digital compass; Auto-dimming exterior mirrors; Universal remote transmitter; BMW Assist; Bluetooth technology; A 4-year subscription to BMW Assist Safety Services is also included in this option) $2410
Convience Package (Anti-theft alarm; Comfort Access keyless entry; Power rear sunshade; Manual rear side window sunshades; Park Distance Control (front and rear bumpers))- $1640
Sport package (Shadowline exterior window trim; 18" x 8" front and 18" x 8.5" rear Star-Spoke (style 287) alloy wheels with 225/40R18 front and 255/35R18 rear run-flat performance tires; Leather sport steering wheel (smaller diameter and thicker rim); Modified suspension; 10-way power front sport seats with 2-way manual headrests and thigh support; Increased top speed limiter)- $1995
Cold Weather Package (Retractable headlight washers; 3-stage heated front seats; Split-folding rear seat)- $1045
sat radio- $320
Paddle shifters- $90
Ipod/USB- $365
$47,405 total invoice price.
Now the Lexus-
For the IS the archive seems to only have 2008... but that's fine, USB/ipod is the only real difference there-
$31684 invoice for the base price- Almost $8000 less for the base model
$3044 sport package (rain sensing wipers, HIDs, memory seats with heating and venting, auto-dim and auto tilt rear and side mirrors, power tilt and telescope steering wheel, aluminum scuff plates, sport suspension, 18" wheels)
$400 Park Assist
$80 headlamp washers.
Total price- $35208
Oh, sorry, $300 for Sat radio.... so $35508
That's actually $12000 less than the BMW... but it's 3 years off... so let's put $35508 into an inflation calculator to be fair to BMW-
$36973.85 in 2011 dollars.
So a bit over $10,000 cheaper for the Lexus. Lets pretend it's $2000 MORE than that to get a 2010 at invoice instead, so you get BT included (and XM for that matter but I won't take the $300 off either) (it's not that much more, but again being nice to BMW, and the wayback machine doesn't seem to have 2010 pricing for me)...then lets pretend BMW assist is worth $1000 (it's not).... the BMW is still $7000 more. and that's making a few incredibly BMW-generous assumptions.
BMW pricing is insane once you option the car at all.
Last edited by Kurtz; 01-10-13 at 06:17 PM.
