Jeff Lange

iTrader: (1)

My biggest concern with that rust would be the threaded bolt holes, I would suggest chasing or tapping them before trying to put the bolts in. Other than that the rust is likely not much more than cosmetic. It wouldn't cause any concern for the internals of the transmission as it is sealed.

There is no gasket between the transmission and the engine block.

Jeff

Gville350

iTrader: (10)

While doing the swap, are there any seals (rear main?) that they should look at replacing while in there though?

lexus-is2

So the internals are compeltely sealed away from the torque converter?

doesn't any fluid go into the bell housing area and torque converter? I'm assuming that's why there is not gaskets because there is no fluid in that area?

Good point, other than the gaskets for service the fluid and changing the filter, is there any gaskets that need changing part of just swapping?

lexus-is2

Also, what would you suggest I go for the 85k 2010 one for slightly cheaper or the just under 50k miles for about 100 bucks more with the rusty torque converter? In a manual transmission I believe the engine output is connected to a flywheel, I'm assuming in the auto it's connect to this torque converter?

Does removing the transmission cause it to lose transmission fluid? Or is the fluid seal inside the pan and inside the internal area?

The newer transmission with lower miles and the rust is from a less reputable breaker who doesn't have a lot of history. It's like small place that opens and closes. And only offers 30 day warranty. The older transmission from 2010 with 86k miles is from a nationwide reputable recycling company with 6 month warranty.

TopNotchIN

The transmission to choose is the one you feel more comfortable with. The rust on the torque converter appears to be surface rust and shouldn't affect the operation of the transmission. It's most likely from how the unit was stored by the shop. Sometimes they wipe the unit down quickly to remove fluids and dust leftover from the removal from the car. Other times the shop just removes it and puts it on the storage rack in their warehouse. Wiping the dirt off parts can sometimes keep them from corroding.

Yes, the flywheel on the engine is bolted to the torque converter on the transmission in an automatic car.

Removing the transmission will allow fluid to leak out. The torque converter is simply slid onto the spindle of the transmission oil pump. You can slide/pull the converter right off. Be careful! The converter is heavy (maybe 20 pounds) and if you're not aware of that you could drop it! The converter is filled with about 2 liters of fluid. Behind the converter is the oil pump seal. If you tip the transmission towards the bell housing it will leak fluid out of the seal area. When you remove the driveshaft there's another seal behind there as well. If you tip the transmission towards that end it will pour out fluid from that seal. Draining the transmission from the pan before you remove it will only help a small amount. It's more important to keep the transmission level the entire time. Fluid will leak out from the front and/or the back when tilted towards either end. Be ready for lots of fluid to come out.

I changed the transmission on my 2006 IS250 AWD a few months ago. It wasn't fun as there is much less room to work because of having a front differential. The RWD seems like it would be easier to do. My problems were dealing with removing the starter. On the AWD it's more difficult to remove because there's no space around that area from the front differential design. It was also a PITA to remove the front driveshaft. It was almost seized to both the front differential and the transmission case. I ended up destroying my front driveshaft and bought a used one on eBay to replace it.

2013FSport

iTrader: (2)

Is the rusty young one near the ocean? It seems like salt water rust vs inland moisture to me. Just confirm that the transmission was not a victim of a flood. i.e. find out why the car was totaled. As others have stated, all threads need chased, (you'll need a bottom tap for the TC), this includes cleaning the electronic connection too.

As for the innards being rusty, the fluid inside should protect it from all but the worst of high humidity situations, unless it's been out of service for years. The TC holds about half of the total fluid volume so, while the trans is out, it can be pulled and dumped. But must be properly installed back on the trans or it will be damaged during the installation. All of that said, if the low mile trans does not show metal tab bolted to the case to keep the TC from falling out, that is a Huge warning sign about the seller that they are not doing the right thing. As stated above, if it seems wrong, go with the 2010 reputable source.

GL

lexus-is2

Thank you for your replies. Much appreciated. Sorry if my questions sound dumb but seeing as i'm going down the route of changing the tranny I just want to make sure I understand it all. Although a transmission shop will most probably be doing the job for me, I would still like to understand it all.

So when the tranny is on the car, is there actually a lot of fluid sitting in the bell housing? Considering there is no seal between the bell housing and the engine block, how does fluid stay inside without dripping out? When re-installing the transmission, is there any seals that need changing?

Considering the tranny is second-hand and removed from a car, and what you say is that different amount of fluid can leak out. So that means inside the internals and the sump there may be different amounts of fluid. Once the transmission is installed back on the car, how does the fluid level in all the areas get put to the correct level? From what I understand, you siphon or syringe new fluid through the filling hole. But this will only put fluid in the one area. I'm guessing you have to run the transmission and then following the level checking procedure which will put fluid in other areas causing fluid level to drop and then you re-fill?

My transmission shop says he will inspect sump and change filter on the new tranny while it's off the car, that way any concerns in the sump area can be spotted before disabling the car. So just to clarify, what he will have to do is: replace the filter and put new sump gaskets in etc then after removing old tranny, attach new tranny torque converter to flywheel and attach drive shaft on the other end. After all this is done, he then fills fluid through the filling hole? when does he stop filling fluid and what next?

Should the transmission shop try and drain out as much fluid as possible? that way as much new fluid as possible will go back in?

So i'm trying to understand this. So there is fluid inside the torque converter unit itself? Is the fluid in there only put in by opening it up? So the fluid inside the torque converter never actually gets exchanged even if you change transmission fluid? So no mixing between fluid in the torque converter and the rest of the transmission? So essentially it's a independent system itself with it's own fluid?


Good point, i'll ask them.

You wouldn't happen to be able to show a pic of the metal tab you are referring to? I can't seem to see any sort of metal tab bolted to the case

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TopNotchIN

The transmission on our cars is a "sealed" unit. A traditional transmission has a filler tube similar to the engine oil dipstick tube. It also has lines to and from the transmission to a cooler (usually the radiator has a transmission cooler unit built inside it). Our transmissions are an "all-in-one" type of unit. The cooler is on the transmission itself and the fluid is filled just like a manual transmission.

No. There is absolutely no transmission fluid inside the bell housing itself. The torque converter sits inside the bell housing of the transmission and spins around on a spindle going into the transmission oil pump. If you pull the converter out of the transmission it will look like a giant breakfast bagel with only a hole on one side. That hole sits on the oil pump spindle. Fluid is pumped around and past that spindle into the torque converter. Think of a food blender. You have the blender and a cup with a blade inside. The blender is like your engine, the blade is like the torque converter and the cup is your bell housing. The bell housing protects the converter from debris and also from things getting caught around it while it's spinning at high speed. Hopefully, that makes sense because I'm terrible at explanations.





Usually when you get a used transmission the shop drains most of the old fluid out. The salvage yard I got my transmission from had already drained most of the old fluid out of it. If you tip the transmission on it's end there will be lots of fluid that drains out. If there's still a lot of old transmission fluid inside your transmission that shop did a very poor job. A reputable salvage yard will drain as much old fluid out as they can. They will also bolt on a metal tab to the bell housing so the torque converter doesn't slide off and break your foot. Who wants 20 pounds of metal sliding off the transmission unexpectedly while you're transporting it around? In the picture you posted it shows that rusty converter. The converter literally just slides off of a splined metal peg that's about 4-5 inches long.

lexus-is2

Thank you @TopNotchIN great explanation. So just so i'm clear, even though the transmission is sealed, The torque converter receives pump circulated fluid through the spindle that it slots into? So considering there is no fluid in the bell housing, does that mean when the torque converter is inserted into the spindle it seals itself somehow? Like how is the fluid that comes into the torque converter sealed from leaking into bell housing?

Sorry, one thing I don't quite understand. If it's sealed then why is it when tilting it to either side will cause fluid to leak? I'm assuming the torque converter side will leak only if the torque converter is out of the spindle and the torque converter itself somehow seals the fluid? what about the other side?

Finally, so lets say the shop I buy the tranny from drained out as much oil as possible and there is still fluid in the sump. My tranny shop will open sump and drain oil from there too. So technically then most of the fluid will be out. There might be fluid inside the torque converter too right? How can that be drained? Then if the tranny shop just fills fluid through the fill hole, it should take the correct amount of fluid? all the fluid goes in through there? But only once it is running will the fluid travel into the TC etc right?

TopNotchIN

You are correct. The torque converter receives fluid from around the spindle it sits on. It is sealed from leaking fluid because there is an actual ring seal that goes around the outside edge of the torque converter "lug." Take a look at my picture of the spindle. See that light brown seal that sits around the spindle? That keeps the fluid from leaking out. If you take the converter off of the spindle there's a gap between the seal and the spindle. So if the transmission is tipped on that side, fluid will leak out of the gap. The other end of the transmission looks similar. There's a spindle on the end with the same looking seal. That spindle connects to the driveshaft going back to the rear differential. There's a gap around that seal, too, which allows fluid to leak out if the driveshaft is removed.



Yes. If they removed the torque converter and tipped the transmission on end, it will remove most of the fluid. The same concept goes if they tip it on the other end and drain fluid out. You can drain fluid from the converter by tilting it on it's side and dumping it out. A lot of fluid stays inside the converter so you have to keep tilting it on it's side and letting fluid collect. Then you pour it out once the fluid collects enough on the bottom.

When the transmission shop installs your "new" (used) transmission, they will fill it through the fill hole on the side of the transmission. See my picture below. I believe you fill it with about 12 quarts of Toyota WS transmission fluid. Yes, it will hold that much in the pan. Then you start the car and bring it up the transmission up to around 114 degrees Fahrenheit. Techstream or other diagnostic software can show the exact transmission operating temperature. Move the shifter slowly from park to reverse, neutral, drive, 1 and 2. Then slowly move it back up through the gears to park again. Now you open up the overflow plug on the transmission pan (NOT the drain plug!) When the transmission fluid coming out slows down to just a trickle, you will put the overflow plug back in. That should make sure the fluid level is correct. Now make sure nothing is leaking. Lower your car back down to the ground and take that thing for a spin. Drive it normally and not like some hormonal teenager trying to impress the hot girls (you're only going to get likes from dudes anyway). Does it shift through all the gears? Is there any slipping or abnormal hesitations? No? Good job! Your car should be ready to rock and roll.

lexus-is2

Thank you @TopNotchIN great explanation. Makes a lot of sense now. So those seals that seal both ends from oil leaks, they aren't one time use seals are they?

Also, back to a question about the rusty TC low mileage tranny I was looking at. Let's say the internals of the tranny itself is sealed so it's safe, but if the TC isn't fully inserted and seated into the spindle while the surface rust was developing what is the chances of moisture and rust getting inside the super thin components inside the TC? I've read that moisture in transmission oil isn't good.

You mentioned to drive normally. I do drive normally most of the time, but occassionally I do like to rev up a bit on on lower gears specially to hear intake noise etc. Does this cause transmission issues?

TopNotchIN

The seals can be reused as long as they aren't in poor shape. Make sure they aren't nicked or scratched up from removing the torque converter. If you want peace of mind you can always have the shop replace them. I mean why not? They're already replacing the transmission so it's not like it's a lot more work.

Drive normally once the replacement transmission is installed and filled with fluid. You want the fluid to flow through all the areas of the transmission and fill them up first. After you check to make sure your car drives correctly, you can give it some gas. Nobody's stopping you from driving the way you want. Just don't drive like a maniac right after getting the transmission filled up. Good luck!

TopNotchIN

lexus-is2 The transmission bell housing has a small plastic cover on the bottom. This is an inspection cover that pops out. If that was lost or removed at some point, salt and moisture could have made it's way inside the bell housing. That could be why the converter is so rusted. There's probably a very small chance of any debris getting past the converter and seal while it's on the car. If you want some peace of mind you may want to go for the other transmission. It still has low mileage, it's from a well-known shop and has a longer warranty. You can't really go wrong for choosing that one plus it's cheaper. When my transmission started having drivability issues, I replaced the entire transmission. Why? It was cheaper to get a used unit and replace it myself than to change solenoids and hope it works. There was a salvage yard an hour from me that had lots of transmissions available for cheap. I paid around $250 with taxes and core charges. Not sure why they charged a core, but they did. Either way it was cheap. The tranny was a 2008 with 72k miles. It works just fine.

lexus-is2

Thank you @TopNotchIN i've learnt alot just from your explanations. Thank you. So even if the TC is completely drained, filling up the tranny through the side fill hole will hold enough fluid in the tranny to fill up the amount that needs to go back into the TC? so once the TC is filled up again then the amount sitting in the tranny will go down again? and the overflow method removes excess fluid at the given temperature? Also, do you know roughly how much new fluid should be poured in? I always get a bit worried with overfilling, what if the shop puts in more than needed or will the tranny not take more than it needs should it be filled until no more goes in? for the A960E for my car I have found the following Lexus tech doc and it says for the entire tranny its 7.2L (7.61 Qts). Is that the total amount that needs to go in even though the TC and everything is drained? or is the total the sum of all of those values?




So straight after installing the new tranny, driving normally helps fluids travel to all the areas? how many hundred miles of normal driving do you think before tranny is ready to give some power and before i can drive a bit harsh like in low gears and ECT PWR etc? does driving in low gears and ECT PWR wear out the tranny quicker?

TopNotchIN

You actually want to overfill the transmission at first. When you begin to refill the transmission, you want to add more fluid than it needs. I believe you can put about 9 or 10 bottles of transmission fluid in before it starts to spill back out. Why would you do that? Well, because you will actually drain out the excess fluid. There's no dipstick on a sealed transmission so you can't actually check the level of fluid in there easily. You add too much fluid. Then you start the car, let the fluid fill back up to all areas of the transmission (including the torque converter) and get the transmission up to the proper temperature. When the transmission is at the proper "test" temperature you do the shifting through gears and open the overflow plug. You want to get the transmission fluid to the proper temperature because it expands. If you put 5 liters in and then heat it up, the result would be closer to 5.5 or 6 quarts when measured. Starting the car and getting it up to the proper temperature will allow the transmission fluid to expand and also fill all the parts of the transmission. By opening the overflow plug, you allow any excess fluid to drain out. This procedure allows for the proper amount of fluid to be in the transmission. If you don't overfill the transmission at first, you will have to add more fluid and do the test all over again. This is why you want to overfill the transmission from the beginning. Any excess fluid is drained out so that it doesn't end up overfilled. Does that make sense? Please don't follow these instructions exactly. They are a general explanation of how the process works. You will want to have a knowledgeable shop do the work or obtain proper instructions on how to properly fill the transmission.