The 2014 Lexus IS is expected to make its official debut at the 2013 NAIAS in Detroit
12-07-12, 02:49 PM
#886
Really? Show me a review that says a pre-F30 3-series feels nose-heavy please.It is possible to move weights around and/or alter the materials used in specific parts (the E90 M3 went as far as making the front fenders plastic) instead of adding weights in order to maintain balance. And BMW has proudly stated that they've done just that in many of their PRs including the following:
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...tribution.html
And not putting an aluminum hood on a smaller engined car does not mean gimping it as long as it ends up equally balanced. Sames goes for not putting plastic fenders in the non-M cars in the example above.
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...tribution.html
And not putting an aluminum hood on a smaller engined car does not mean gimping it as long as it ends up equally balanced. Sames goes for not putting plastic fenders in the non-M cars in the example above.
you are talking about M3... how does the BMW balance weight of different engines in the same model? What are you talking about is a myth, not real.
drive 328i and then drive 330i of any year and tell me they dont feel different.
12-07-12, 03:07 PM
#887
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Of course they will feel different because the overall curb weights are different, needing different suspension tuning. But unless BMW is plain lying on their spec sheets all the RWD 3-series models did show near 50:50 weight distribution ratios (after rounding off) across the entire range, although curiously they've now stopped showing such useful specs on their official website (I wonder why).
12-07-12, 03:09 PM
#888
I'm not so sure about BMW's claim's that their model line up is all 50:50 weight distribution.
The old 2005-2012 3 Series, the 318i 2.0 4 cylinder overseas model had the lightest nose with the sharpest turn in for the quickest directional changes.
The old 325i, 330i and 335i in-line sixes had a much heavier nose, and not as quick in directional changes.
The new/current model 3 Series is big, heavy, soft, floaty and ponderous, but good looking.
My old 2006 IS250 which I gave to my father is good looking esp after it was facelifted in 2010, though a bit small inside, has a nice engine, sharp steering and quick directional changes, with good/great terminal grip [actually better than the old 2005-12 3 Series], but the ride is too firm; the old and new 3 Series ride being much more pleasant.
They have beefed up the bottom end torque in the updated 2.5 V6 in the GS250 overseas.
The old 2005-12 3 Series actually had the best handling/ride compromise.
The 2006-13 IS was good handling, but too firm for me, and small too.
The new 2012-19 3 Series is just too soft, floaty, loose, and ponderous, and personally, I don't like turbo characteristics - I prefer atmospheric.
I was gonna get the 2007-14 C300 3.0 also with a good handling/ride balance, spacious inside, and good looking, but the 90 degree V6 had no bottom end torque and was so crass, plus I was scared of more reliability problems after owning the 2000-2007 C240 2.6 - the ignition key sensor broke down after 70,000 km costing me $2,800 in repairs, the heater broke down at 60,000 km costing me another $3k etc.
Will have to wait till Tuesday 15th January 2013 to see how the new 3IS fares...
The old 2005-2012 3 Series, the 318i 2.0 4 cylinder overseas model had the lightest nose with the sharpest turn in for the quickest directional changes.
The old 325i, 330i and 335i in-line sixes had a much heavier nose, and not as quick in directional changes.
The new/current model 3 Series is big, heavy, soft, floaty and ponderous, but good looking.
My old 2006 IS250 which I gave to my father is good looking esp after it was facelifted in 2010, though a bit small inside, has a nice engine, sharp steering and quick directional changes, with good/great terminal grip [actually better than the old 2005-12 3 Series], but the ride is too firm; the old and new 3 Series ride being much more pleasant.
They have beefed up the bottom end torque in the updated 2.5 V6 in the GS250 overseas.
The old 2005-12 3 Series actually had the best handling/ride compromise.
The 2006-13 IS was good handling, but too firm for me, and small too.
The new 2012-19 3 Series is just too soft, floaty, loose, and ponderous, and personally, I don't like turbo characteristics - I prefer atmospheric.
I was gonna get the 2007-14 C300 3.0 also with a good handling/ride balance, spacious inside, and good looking, but the 90 degree V6 had no bottom end torque and was so crass, plus I was scared of more reliability problems after owning the 2000-2007 C240 2.6 - the ignition key sensor broke down after 70,000 km costing me $2,800 in repairs, the heater broke down at 60,000 km costing me another $3k etc.
Will have to wait till Tuesday 15th January 2013 to see how the new 3IS fares...
Last edited by peteharvey; 12-07-12 at 03:21 PM.
12-07-12, 03:20 PM
#889
I'm not so sure about BMW's claim's that their model line up is all 50:50 weight distribution.
The old 2005-2012 3 Series, the 318i 2.0 4 cylinder overseas model had the lightest nose with the sharpest turn in for the quickest directional changes.
The old 325i, 330i and 335i in-line sixes had a much heavier nose, and not as quick in directional changes.
The new/current model 3 Series is big, heavy, soft, floaty and ponderous, but good looking.
My old 2006 IS250 which I gave to my father is good looking esp after it was facelifted in 2010, though a bit small inside, has a nice engine, sharp steering and quick directional changes, with good/great terminal grip [actually better than the old 2005-12 3 Series], but the ride is too firm; the old and new 3 Series ride being much more pleasant.
They have beefed up the bottom end torque in the updated 2.5 V6 in the GS250 overseas.
Will have to wait till Tuesday 15th January 2013 to see how the new 3IS fares...
The old 2005-2012 3 Series, the 318i 2.0 4 cylinder overseas model had the lightest nose with the sharpest turn in for the quickest directional changes.
The old 325i, 330i and 335i in-line sixes had a much heavier nose, and not as quick in directional changes.
The new/current model 3 Series is big, heavy, soft, floaty and ponderous, but good looking.
My old 2006 IS250 which I gave to my father is good looking esp after it was facelifted in 2010, though a bit small inside, has a nice engine, sharp steering and quick directional changes, with good/great terminal grip [actually better than the old 2005-12 3 Series], but the ride is too firm; the old and new 3 Series ride being much more pleasant.
They have beefed up the bottom end torque in the updated 2.5 V6 in the GS250 overseas.
Will have to wait till Tuesday 15th January 2013 to see how the new 3IS fares...
i drove GS250... just say no :-).
12-07-12, 03:29 PM
#890
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I'm not so sure about BMW's claim's that their model line up is all 50:50 weight distribution.
The old 2005-2012 3 Series, the 318i 2.0 4 cylinder overseas model had the lightest nose with the sharpest turn in for the quickest directional changes.
The old 325i, 330i and 335i in-line sixes had a much heavier nose, and not as quick in directional changes.
The old 2005-2012 3 Series, the 318i 2.0 4 cylinder overseas model had the lightest nose with the sharpest turn in for the quickest directional changes.
The old 325i, 330i and 335i in-line sixes had a much heavier nose, and not as quick in directional changes.
12-07-12, 03:49 PM
#891
These days, I'm so lazy, I don't read the specs as much as I should, so I don't know about BMW's exact claims on weight distribution, but I doubt all the models would be 50/50.
I've seen many people cite that the current model nose heavy M3 V8, doesn't have as light a nose, nor turn in as fast as the old M3 in-line six.
So I'd be surprised if they were all 50/50 weight distribution across the range?
One thing these days, I do actually test drive the cars and the different models more than ever.
I drove the previous generation 3GS460, and the V8 was very nose heavy too, however the V8 did have considerable take off and straight line speed.
Balance?
My understanding, balance is not quick changes in direction, nor great terminal grip, but balance is the ability of the car to break out "controllably", at the limit of adhesion.
If the tail snaps suddenly, then we are more likely to lose control, and that's not balance.
Balance is when it breaks progressively so that we can control the slide with steering, throttle or brakes.
Balance wise, all these multi-link systems from Benz, Beamer and Lexus, are pretty good.
The lightweight 1400 kg very old 1999-2006 1IS200 had the very best balance thanks to its weight!
Back in 1994, I had a Mazda 929 with a single lower link only semi-trailing arm rear suspension, and the tail use to snap suddenly - lucky I didn't clip the kerb.
Overall, these cars from Benz, Beamer and Lexus are all equally good, but in different ways.
It's just mostly horses for courses.
The new/current 3 Series is on the bloaty side, with questionable handling, questionable turbo characteristics, and questionable durability.
The C Class is a nice car with a Chrysler-shared 60 degree V6, but aging, and also a questionable turbo, and questionable overall reliability and durability.
The lightweight 1999-2006 IS200 was a master of handling and balance, but was a bit bland, too small, and too firm.
The outgoing 2006-13 IS is nice looking and sporty, but bit small and firm.
The incoming 2013 IS remains to be seen...
I've seen many people cite that the current model nose heavy M3 V8, doesn't have as light a nose, nor turn in as fast as the old M3 in-line six.
So I'd be surprised if they were all 50/50 weight distribution across the range?
One thing these days, I do actually test drive the cars and the different models more than ever.
I drove the previous generation 3GS460, and the V8 was very nose heavy too, however the V8 did have considerable take off and straight line speed.
Balance?
My understanding, balance is not quick changes in direction, nor great terminal grip, but balance is the ability of the car to break out "controllably", at the limit of adhesion.
If the tail snaps suddenly, then we are more likely to lose control, and that's not balance.
Balance is when it breaks progressively so that we can control the slide with steering, throttle or brakes.
Balance wise, all these multi-link systems from Benz, Beamer and Lexus, are pretty good.
The lightweight 1400 kg very old 1999-2006 1IS200 had the very best balance thanks to its weight!
Back in 1994, I had a Mazda 929 with a single lower link only semi-trailing arm rear suspension, and the tail use to snap suddenly - lucky I didn't clip the kerb.
Overall, these cars from Benz, Beamer and Lexus are all equally good, but in different ways.
It's just mostly horses for courses.
The new/current 3 Series is on the bloaty side, with questionable handling, questionable turbo characteristics, and questionable durability.
The C Class is a nice car with a Chrysler-shared 60 degree V6, but aging, and also a questionable turbo, and questionable overall reliability and durability.
The lightweight 1999-2006 IS200 was a master of handling and balance, but was a bit bland, too small, and too firm.
The outgoing 2006-13 IS is nice looking and sporty, but bit small and firm.
The incoming 2013 IS remains to be seen...
Last edited by peteharvey; 12-07-12 at 03:54 PM.
12-07-12, 03:55 PM
#892
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These days, I'm so lazy, I don't read the specs as much as I should, so I don't know about BMW's exact claims on weight distribution, but I doubt all the models would be 50/50.
I've seen many people cite that the current model nose heavy M3 V8, doesn't have as light a nose, nor turn in as fast as the old M3 in-line six.
So I'd be surprised if they were all 50/50 weight distribution across the range?
I've seen many people cite that the current model nose heavy M3 V8, doesn't have as light a nose, nor turn in as fast as the old M3 in-line six.
So I'd be surprised if they were all 50/50 weight distribution across the range?
Balance?
My understanding, balance is not quick changes in direction, nor great terminal grip, but balance is the ability of the car to break out "controllably", at the limit of adhesion.
If the tail snaps suddenly, then we are more likely to lose control, and that's not balance.
Balance is when it breaks progressively so that we can control the slide with steering, throttle or brakes.
Balance wise, all these multi-link systems are pretty good.
Back in 1994, I had a Mazda 929 with a semi-trailing arm rear suspension, and the tail use to snap suddenly - lucky I didn't clip the kerb.
My understanding, balance is not quick changes in direction, nor great terminal grip, but balance is the ability of the car to break out "controllably", at the limit of adhesion.
If the tail snaps suddenly, then we are more likely to lose control, and that's not balance.
Balance is when it breaks progressively so that we can control the slide with steering, throttle or brakes.
Balance wise, all these multi-link systems are pretty good.
Back in 1994, I had a Mazda 929 with a semi-trailing arm rear suspension, and the tail use to snap suddenly - lucky I didn't clip the kerb.
Last edited by ydooby; 12-07-12 at 03:59 PM.
12-07-12, 04:16 PM
#893
Nothing lasts forever, the F-150 will likely not be #1 in sales very soon, thus ending a 30+ year reign. That said the 3-Series the undisputed king of "driving" faces the stiffest competition now than it has ever in the past. I feel with this new 3IS, ATS, and wildcard G, it's reign has ended. Can they get it back? Sure, anyone can with some effort. But for now, I believe the torch is passing
12-07-12, 05:20 PM
#894
so new IS has to be a winner since everyone said works well at the limit, where old one would snap :-).
12-07-12, 05:23 PM
#895
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The IS250, yes (handling-wise), but the IS350 is said by most reviews to be too understeer-prone at the limit to be considered a balanced car, which is my point above on what Lexus can learn from the last-gen 3-series and improve in the future.
Last edited by ydooby; 12-07-12 at 05:39 PM.
12-07-12, 05:25 PM
#896
Nothing lasts forever, the F-150 will likely not be #1 in sales very soon, thus ending a 30+ year reign. That said the 3-Series the undisputed king of "driving" faces the stiffest competition now than it has ever in the past. I feel with this new 3IS, ATS, and wildcard G, it's reign has ended. Can they get it back? Sure, anyone can with some effort. But for now, I believe the torch is passing
3 series is a bit different... i dont think it is #1 selling compact luxury sedan anyway (worldwide)... I think A4 outsells it, and it is FWD so :-). Probably E36 was the highest point and every future version was dulled more and more, at least thats what reviews said... since i was checking old reviews for weight comments, i saw E46 review that said duller than E36 and then E90 that said duller than E46 and now obviously everyone is writing how F30 is duller than E90 :-).
But the legend will probably remain, especially in the US... in Europe, obviously A4 sells like crazy so people dont care about driving as much as the looks.
12-07-12, 06:22 PM
#898
Pole Position
The GS350 F-Sport has DRS and most reviews have praised the GS350 F-Sport for its quick turn-in on the handling circuit and have said that the GS350 F-Sport handles like a much smaller car.
Could the lack of a DRS be hurting the heavier, more nose-heavy IS350? The lighter IS250 might not benefit from a DRS but the IS350, with more mass in its nose and being more prone to understeer, might.
12-07-12, 06:29 PM
#899
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I wonder if a rear steering (DRS) system would have improved the turn-in of the upcoming IS350 F-Sport.
The GS350 F-Sport has DRS and most reviews have praised the GS350 F-Sport for its quick turn-in on the handling circuit and have said that the GS350 F-Sport handles like a much smaller car.
Could the lack of a DRS be hurting the heavier, more nose-heavy IS350? The lighter IS250 might not benefit from a DRS but the IS350, with more mass in its nose,might.
The GS350 F-Sport has DRS and most reviews have praised the GS350 F-Sport for its quick turn-in on the handling circuit and have said that the GS350 F-Sport handles like a much smaller car.
Could the lack of a DRS be hurting the heavier, more nose-heavy IS350? The lighter IS250 might not benefit from a DRS but the IS350, with more mass in its nose,might.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/7618746-post436.html
Lexus needs to retune the balance of the IS350 F-Sport if they intend to inject into it the same kind of "playfulness" found in the GS350 F-Sport.
Last edited by ydooby; 12-07-12 at 06:46 PM.
12-07-12, 06:47 PM
#900
Pole Position
One explanation could be the longer length/dimensions of the GS compared to the IS.
One must remember that the upcoming IS is not using a chassis tailor made for it but is using a chassis handed down from the larger GS.
The more massive 3.5L engine, that in most instances wouldn't have thrown off the balance in a GS, might do so in the smaller, shorter IS.
One must remember that the upcoming IS is not using a chassis tailor made for it but is using a chassis handed down from the larger GS.
The more massive 3.5L engine, that in most instances wouldn't have thrown off the balance in a GS, might do so in the smaller, shorter IS.
Last edited by natnut; 12-07-12 at 11:42 PM.