spwolf

I have 09 220d, which is European... its fine with suspension to me, maybe a tad firm but well damped so it doesnt crash over the bumps, overall it is fine.

3IS gains 4" in rear knee room and 20% bigger trunk. It is going to be also less firm. I think interior size was the biggest complaint in general (trunk was fine for me, but hey, if they give us more, why not). Of course, with new model we expect more up to date design, features, technology.

I personally like:
- More feel in steering
- Better handling but softer
- More rigid body shell
- Bigger interior (!!!)
- More leather inside (leather knee pads, leather dash)
- More technology, technology, technology!
- Design looks to be wild! Both inside and out... LFA style combination meter looks awesome. Seems like it will have a lot of cool stuff like new Enform multimedia so you can throw vector maps from iphone into it, HUD, etc, etc.

So for me as 2IS owner, this looks like a winner already. Whether it handles 5% more or less is cool for forum talk, but I am currently fine with 2IS so all the improvements they talk about are just icing on the cake.

Design is important and luxury materials and features inside... I once took 4 guys over 800 mile trip and it was really too small... you kind of rubbed everywhere and it wasnt comfy at all... 4" extra seems perfect. It does go excellent on Autobahn at 110-120mph, it could stay there forever, rock steady at high speeds. Big difference from my 3GS in handling, a lot nicer.

Of course, what it wont be is as luxurious as GS. So it might look cooler and it might look very similar even, but if you look for it, you will have to find it cheaper than 4GS. Because it is.

natnut

PeteHarvey, are we seeing the same thing??

Cause the photo you posted of the 4GS interior is the epitome of simplicity, elegance and unclutteredness. The 6 series interior you are lauding has to my eyes far more lines ands looks far more busy to me.

You often make great and thought provoking points but some of your observations of car interiors comparing German cars to Lexus cars are so off base that I sometimes wonder whether we're from the same planet.

Diego@Vossen

peteharvey

Actually, the 4GS is fairly simple and clean, but they did add some unnecessary parts/panels/lines.
Eg, the extra vertical stitching on the door trim, parallel to the driver's seat.
There is also an extra horizontal stitching and line below the four buttons for the driver's seat memory position.
Notice the extra stitching longitudinally on the front center arm rest?
There is stitching along the center console too.
Notice how the longitudinal plastic panel supporting the jog dial, is raised from the center console? It should have been smooth and flush.
The door trim, center console etc needs to look simplified, and more cleaner, to hold its age well.

The clock should have been flush mounted for smoothness.
The vertical adjustment dials should have been flush mounted too.
The center vents have 3 horizontal slats; all three should have been flush mounted.
The entire center vent and clock unit is a trifle bland, with multiple lines in and out - it should have looked more simple, flush, and stylish.
The LF-LC's center vents and clock unit is far more simple, yet stylish!
The LF-LC's center vents and clock literally consists of only 3 horizontal lines! Please view photo below.

Notice how the steering wheel is not dead vertical, but slightly tilted/raked at some 20 degrees to face the driver's eyes?
Similarly, the upper dashboard, notably the center vents and bamboo above the glovebox, are both raked to face the drive/front passenger's eyes.
However, with the 4GS, in a first, the lower half of the 4GS dash, containing the hi-fi and ventilation controls, actually rakes negatively at 5 to 10 degrees to face the driver's lower abdomen!
Notice how in the 1978 Porsche, the 6 Series, and the old 1, 2, and 3GS slopes/rakes positively upwards towards the driver's eyes?
The LF-LC's dash is positively raked towards the driver's eyes too.

The hi-fi controls on the 4GS are quite simple, with only a left dial for volume, right dial for tuning, and a center slot for the disc, with two small buttons on the left and right of the disc for disc insert and eject, however, they could have made that hi-fi unit look more stylish - as is, it looks rather bland/ordinary.

Below the hi-fi, are the ventilation controls.
The ventilation controls look too busy!
It needs to be simplified down to just a left and right temperature dial/rocker, and off, auto, recirculate, defogger and demister buttons only.
The remaining detailed controls should be on-screen in the menu system.
The ventilation controls are just a trifle bland too.
Look at how simple and stylish the LF-LC's ventilation controls are!!!

The sat nav on the 4GS is functional, but a trifle bland.
Whereas the sat nav on the LF-LC prototype is similar in concept, but shaped more stylishly.
Lexus can do it - they just have to get their act together.


The single greatest mistake in the 4GS interior would have to be the negative rake of the lower dashboard, facing the driver's abdomen, rather than positively angled towards the driver's eyes. This can best be seen in the photograph below.
Like the LF-LC and the old 3GS, and the 78 Porsche and 6 Series, the center console should be integrated with the lower half of the dashboard.

There should also be some degree of symmetry and cohesiveness.
So, if the center vents and clock are metal, and the hi-fi dials and CD slot are also metal, then may be there should be a left and right temperature dial that is also metal too?

Notice how the release button and lock hole for the glove box eats into the dashboard area, looking busier?
I would have placed the release button and lock hole within the glove box lid itself, resulting in a smoother and cleaner looking lower dashboard...

spwolf

you do realize these are all just your opinions, right? Glove release button and lock make it look like expensive car, not cheap Toyota.

LF-LC's interior is simplified concept car interior... it doesnt even look that good at all nor it is usable, and it can never be but a small guidance to overall look.

peteharvey

Yes, they are just opinions, but they are possible and plausible explanations as to why the 4GS doesn't sell, which is a fact, when competitors like the E Class, 5 Series, and even Lexus own RX is selling, which is also a fact.
Styling is very important.
Styling sells.
When a car isn't well styled, consumers go "quiet"; they don't actually voice it to the sales rep - they simply don't sign on the dotted line!

The RX sells like hot cakes because it is very well styled outside, front, rear, and a nice sweeping dashboard, and it is spacious, and mechanically competent.
The old 2IS is also well styled outside, front and rear, and at least decently styled inside, but sales has been hampered by a cosy rear compartment, and to a lesser extent, by an overly firm ride, which European magazines describes as being too busy etc.
The new 4GS has a lovely handling/ride balance, but sales have been hampered possibly by questionable rear end styling, possible questionable interior styling, still poor rear foot room and limited leg space due to big intrusive air conditioned seats, and possibly questionable firewall noise.
Customers won't criticise directly, but they quietly won't sign on the dotted line.

This is only a guess, but I suspect the new 6ES won't sell as well as their predecessors, because the new 6ES styling is not as graceful, esp when compared to the 5ES, and the 6ES is also too big.
Yes, too small is a problem, but too big is also a problem too.
It will be interesting to see how sales of the new 6ES goes???
That's why I'm not too happy with Lexus fiddling with the successful RX formula, and basing the next generation RX on the the huge Avlaon platform.
As for the 3IS, the exterior is too well camouflaged, and the interior is too well camouflaged too, so I find it difficult to comment.


If the new 4GS interior is quietly hampering its sales, the main problem is that the lower part of the dashboard is not angled towards the driver's eyes, but it is angled downwards negatively towards the driver's abdomen.
The 4GS is literally the only model in the entire Lexus line up to have a negatively angled/raked lower dashboard facing the driver's abdomen???
The glove box lock is of little consequence.
However, to be picky, the glovebox lock would look cleaner if it was built into the lid like the old 3GS, current RX, and the current model LS below.
I don't think placing the lock into the glovebox lid itself makes the 3GS, RX and LS, all photographed below, look like a Toyota at all.
The 3GS, RX and LS below look nothing like a Toyota, and they all sell at least relatively better amongst their peers than the new 4GS; there is no way the new 4GS can total 33,457 units in the USA within the next 2 weeks like the 3GS in 2005, and yet E Classes, 5 Series, and RX's are selling as well as ever.
Its the product.
Not the discounts, or the leasing, or the advertising, or the economy.
The most important factor is the product itself.

The RX's sat nav is wonderfully integrated into its dashboard, and that contributes/helps it to become top seller below...

LexFather

Those are you opinions. Not facts. The GS is actually selling "well" as it is near targets. It is not meant to sell like a 5 or E class and NOTHING will, just as the RX is a volume seller and NOTHING will sell like a RX. That does not make the others failures, they have their targets and should be judged against such.

I know this is hard to believe around here, but some of us like the 4GS and GASP some of us bought the 4GS. The continued beating up on a product hailed as the best driving in class is at this point redundant and insulting.

Let me say that again. The GS is the best driving car in class and instead of you and everyone giving praise I'm reading about some stitching we never looked twice at and a cupholder handle I didn't even know existed.

Now lets all get back to the IS.

cino

iTrader: (1)

Economy, discount, incentive, marketing, pricing, and segmentation all matter. Do you think pricing IS the same as 7 series, people will buy IS over 7 series? Pricing and segmentation are principles of marketing. Lexus needs to carefully price IS because they are trying to compete with brands that have much higher brand prestige. It takes competitive pricing for IS to compete.

Advertising matters, it raises awareness for non-enthusiasts. How many people know LFA is a Lexus or even know it exists? How many percent of popular is car enthusiasts and actively follows car news?

Incentive matter, some people would think "it's a bit more expensive and the APR is a bit high, maybe it will be lower down the road, I can wait." You can try to look back at overall automobile sale back a few years back and now. Recession matter when it comes to buying normal good/luxury good. In recession, people feel that they would keep money in the bank instead of buying. That's why in a tough time, we always see incentive from automakers.

Executives are paid hundreds thousands to millions, they know what they are doing. If only design matters, they wouldn't create marketing department, accounting department or sale department. They just make design department.

peteharvey

Yes, marketing, the economy, competitors, pricing, discounting, finance - all play a role.
However, the single most important factor is the product itself - consisting of form [styling], and function [space, mechanicals etc]...

cino

iTrader: (1)

Toyota sold bland cars for decades now. They raise their design standard because competitions are doing the same thing. Do you think what factor make them change their design direction? Because it's industry standard, if they are below the standard, they can't sell as much. Same goes for fuel efficiency. Do you think that IS that consume 12mpg will sell as much as the one consume 25mpg in the same class? Design is not the most important factor. I see a lot of Juke lately.

And that 6 series and Porsche interior you showed are ugly IMO. Opinions between people differ.

daelo74

Wow, a Lexus Altima

GS3Tek

iTrader: (8)

I'm hoping lexus retains those lcd touch panels for the lf-cc.... the only reason I'm holding out for this.

Please help me understand that after 64 pages on the IS you type this?

peteharvey

Cars have intrinsic and extrinsic factors.
Intrinsic factors relate to the car itself, the styling, the function like space, mechanicals, and the fuel consumption you are referring to above.
Extrinsic factors relate to the components that you mention like: competitors, economy, marketing, discounts, and financing/leasing etc.



Photos provided of the 928 and 6 Series are not to encourage plagiarism, but the photos were attached to show design principles of:
1) simplicity, fewer panels, fewer joins, and fewer lines,
2) a sweeping dashboard that is angled towards the driver's eyes, rather than negatively sloping inwards, thereby angling into the driver's abdomen.
Just some concepts, most of which have been used in both the current 2IS, and the new 3IS.



Scientists used to believe that looks was in the eye of the beholder.
Scientific studies have now proven that is not correct. There are actually traits that make a car attractive or not.

Some people will prefer this style, some people will prefer that style etc, however in the end, there are certain design principles that ultimately result in the consumer signing on the dotted line, as opposed to not signing on the dotted line.

Hence, what is most important, isn't so much the style that you personally like, nor the style that I personally like, but the most important factor is the style that gets consumers to sign on the dotted line for the next generation 3IS, rather than sign for a top selling 3 Series, C Class, or Audi A4 etc....

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

ok pete, i think you've made your points about styling clearly enough.

you're entitled to your opinions, but let's not keep going on and on about the same things.

one point i want to make, is that unlike bmw's and mercedes single mid-size sedans, lexus has 2, which is the reason why the GS doesn't sell more. lexus offers 2 vehicles, and most people are perfectly content with a less expensive front-wheel-drive quiet and comfy lexus quality vehicle (ES).

but anyway, this thread is about the IS. hopefully we'll have more details soon to discuss.

viperabyss

Please forgive me if this has been posted, but here is some more detail about the upcoming hybrid variant of IS.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...t-luxury-sedan