Stillhart

Actually, one reviewer had the BMW second and Caddy last.

I agree with pretty much everything the reviewers said about those two cars (except for the looks of the IS. I think it looks fantastic!). I agree with you too that the Lexus really comes alive on the twisties.

However, I chose a different winner because my focus was less on winding back roads and more on where I'm spending 90% of my time: city and highway miles. In a reversal of expectations, the BMW is the better car for everyday driving than the Lexus. These guys admitted that the Lexus felt really boring until they got it on the back roads. They also admit that they pick their winner PURELY on back-road fun. For me, priorities were different and I think many drivers will feel the same. My $0.02

yowps3

The weird thing is about the 3IS is that it looks smaller than 2IS in person, despite actually being bigger..

peteharvey

The mass public tends to put a priority on straight line speed.
Meanwhile, true enthusiasts tend to prioritize driving fun [nee dynamics].

Having said that, I'm sure Lexus will pull their fingers out, because the mass public is the much larger number who influence the sales, and hence the profit, at the end of the day...

Stillhart

One thing nobody seems to want to mention: "True enthusiasts" will mod their cars for maximum performance. Due to the nature of the BMW chassis and the Lexus engine, it's much easier to make the BMW handle better than it is to make the Lexus as fast as the BMW. "True enthusiasts" don't just look at the stock car, but at the potential the car holds. The "mass public" buys a stock car and leaves it that way assuming that what you see is what you get.

dsadsauser

Checkmate.

peteharvey

You have the mass public with their straight line speed on the far left.
On the far right, the "hard core" enthusiasts mod their cars.

However, the vast majority of enthusiasts are in the middle, and they don't modify their cars...

Glashub

^^^^

I tend to agree. True enthusiasts buy Ferrari and never mod. I live in the mod capitol of the world and have seldom seen cars modded for performance. Looks - yes. As a person who has had Jag, MG, Triumph, and now Lexus -- I have never modded a car. Expect to get in it and drive it enthusiastically. Stillhart the BMW is the perfect car for your needs. I don't know if I'd want a 3IS for long commutes day in and day out. Comfortable but cramped. But for a normal commuter like me who hits the twisties in LA on weekends -- I love the IS350.

natnut

Hardly.

The one inconvenient fact :
BMW is locked into this F30 chassis for the next 5-7 years until time for a new generation.
Lexus new drivetrains are just around the corner

BMW is stuck with this floppy chassis with a great engine and there's not much to be done about this other than aftermarket and it's still starting from a lower handling base considering its competition : Lexus IS and Cadillac ATS.

Mod-for-mod, a F30 3 series cannot outhandle an IS/ATS.

Lexus on the other hand has the upcoming engines/drivetrains. In 1 or 2 year's time, the world class chassis will be married to powerplants that will take better advantage of the IS chassis.

Hence, in the near future, the 3 series powertrain advantage will be easily erased but the chassis advantage of the IS is pretty much locked in stone until a completely new 3 series chassis is developed.

Checkmate indeed.

peteharvey

The BMW F30 has obviously been designed for the mass public.
While the new Lexus 3IS has been designed for the enthusiast.

Personally, I would have thought Lexus would have made the 3IS F Sport suspension a lot firmer [like the 4GS F Sport], then the 3IS F Sport would have handled as well, if not better than the Cadillac, which was deemed in this Youtube test to be the best handling car.
Nevermind, because the 3IS F Sport ended up with a superb ride...

dsadsauser

I disagree. When I think of true enthusiasts, I think of the weekend warriors at track day events. or the BMWCCA folks in Atlanta who hold instructional events for beginners during autocross events. I think of wanna be enthusiasts never really pushing their cars to their limits and thinking a relaxing day driving windy roads will suffice. Or, a stock car will suffice

True enthusiasts don't buy a Ferrari and never mod.
Rich people buy a Ferrari and never mod (with the exception of Enzo, F40, etc. which are beyond rare)
True enthusiasts buy a Porsche GT2.
Rich enthusiasts buy a Pagani Zonda

Just my 2 cents.

natnut

This sounds familiar. Where did I hear this before?

Oh right. That was what Lexus and Infiniti fans used to say in 2006 when the Lexus IS350 and Infiniti G37 crushed the BMW 330i in power, torque and straightline speed but lost to the 330i in overall comparison tests due to the 330i's better driver-engagement and handling.

The BMW partyline then was that there are far more important things to driving pleasure than simple unrefined brute force acceleration.

Funny how the shoe is on the other foot now.

dsadsauser

Except the F30 can outhandle the IS 350. Sorry, but it keeps being proven. Maybe certain reviewers don't like the feel of it, but the 335i will still be able to negotiate any turn on a road course faster than the IS 350. There aren't really that many meaningful mods for the IS 350 at this point, so it's tough to go mod for mod.

Glashub

Understood. I have a Class D racing license earned after grueling driving and testing at Sears Point.. Does that make me an enthusiast or a weekend warrior or a beginner? Also, my point being -- those cars and select cars below those price points don't need to be modded.

natnut

Except on 2 counts :

1) Slalom. The most important summation of a car's overall handling ability
2) Handling feel/Driver engagement

On the above 2 counts, IS > 3 series.

The other things that you most like to mention as evidence of 3 series' handling "superiority" :

Skidpad : more due to the 3 series' tires than the 3 series chassis
Laptime on high speed straights-heavy race tracks : more due to the 335i powertrain advantage than to better chassis tuning.

Seems like the universal evidence is pretty clear. F30 is getting by on its one trick - its drivetrain while its chassis is letting the side down.

This one trick is increasingly looking to be erased once the new Lexus powertrains come online in the near future.

peteharvey

That's not true.
The 3IS outhandles the BMW 335i F30 in this Youtube comparison.
The 3IS also outhandles the F30 in my test drives.

I haven't measured any lap times, but if I had to make an educated guess, I suspect the 3IS would out-lap the F30!
Even though the F30 has the straight line speed, the F30 cannot use its speed because the chassis is too floaty and insecure to drive the car at the limit.
It's like comparing a luxury V8 sedan, with a little hot hatch or sports car.
In a pure straight, the luxo V8 will win, but on a circuit the luxo V8 floats too much to be driven at the limit.
That's why the two motoring journalists gave the verdict to the 3IS, yet they were so damning about the BMW F30 in this Youtube comparison...