My review of the 2014 Lexus IS350 F-Sport (short test drive)
08-08-13, 07:49 PM
#106
Lexus Test Driver
I made a thread that echoes a lot of the sentiments that I believe Lexus skimped, putting the buyer in a precarious position. Had the F-Sport at least provided the option of leather, the loss of other options could be overlooked. The fact that Lexus marketing has to provide a silly justification with a straight face that they did it to "save weight" just adds insult to injury. As many people have said here, they did it to meet a price point, and in the end I think it's a poor decision. If they are justifying their reasoning to not include such luxuries so they don't cannibalize sales of the GS, then that's even a worse decision. The luxury sport sedan segment is the most competitive of all, with many excellent choices. I think the lack of these features on the F-sport could drive many customers away to Lexus' competitors. There is a reason BMW is at the top of this segment year in and year out -- it's because they understand their customer. It's more than just being a great driver's car.
08-08-13, 08:28 PM
#107
Yep, this is the reason.
BUT, this is a confidence thing. A loaded 3 series eclipses a base 5. They have to have confidence that people will want the IS for its benefits over the GS like BMW is. They don't really have that confidence in their F Sport cars. If they are really attracting the enthusiast an enthusiast should want a loaded IS350 F Sport over a base GS350. I don't think they feel they truly can do that, which means they've already lost.
BUT, this is a confidence thing. A loaded 3 series eclipses a base 5. They have to have confidence that people will want the IS for its benefits over the GS like BMW is. They don't really have that confidence in their F Sport cars. If they are really attracting the enthusiast an enthusiast should want a loaded IS350 F Sport over a base GS350. I don't think they feel they truly can do that, which means they've already lost.
So while sure, it would be nice to have an option, i wonder how many would actually purchase it in reality? I dont see loaded GS450h's flying off the lots.
And what would happen if GS450h wasnt even offered in the USA? Uproar of Lexus not offering options :-).
Personally I want base F-Sport with Nuluxe, something that I cant get in Europe, because our Lexus thinks they are cool and they can only offer leather or cloth... well I dont want to pay that much for my next car.
I have loaded 2IS and I had loaded 3GS and I could have lived without half of those things that add up to the cost difference. I am not going to pay $4.5k for leather seats on F-Sport of instance.
So, while we can get loaded IS in Europe and pay crazy money for it, I would prefer they do it like they do in the USA and give us good prices.
08-08-13, 08:47 PM
#108
Lexus Fanatic
BMW and Lexus have two different methods of making cars... Lexus can not make money if they offer versions that nobody buys and then they have to discount heavily to move them off the lots.
So while sure, it would be nice to have an option, i wonder how many would actually purchase it in reality? I dont see loaded GS450h's flying off the lots.
So while sure, it would be nice to have an option, i wonder how many would actually purchase it in reality? I dont see loaded GS450h's flying off the lots.
Honestly though, I think these things should be included in the FSport package same as they are in the luxury package. I feel the same way about the GS.
08-08-13, 10:13 PM
#109
Pole Position
Sorry but that just doesn't make any sense at all. Why would Lexus put that equipment on the F Sport in other markets and not here? They don't want "drivers cars" in other markets? Weight doesn't matter in other markets? Does the USB paint color make the car less of a drivers car or heavier over other colors?
Its to save cost...its business 101. If Lexus does in fact think as you do, then they need to have their heads examined. Drive an M5. Drive an M3. Drive a C63 AMG. Drive a SL63. High performance driver oriented sports cars and sports sedans have these creature comforts. Why does the ISF have this equipment? Its way more sport oriented than an IS250 F Sport and from the same manufacturer.
If it doesn't bother you, thats fine...but don't carry on the farce that Lexus has omitted this equipment to make the IS F sport a "better car". Thats just absurd. They omitted those features to be able to deliver the car at the price point and profit margin they wanted to. Plain and simple. Don't be such a fanboy...acknowledge the shortcomings of the car where they exist...the fact that the F Sport can't be optioned up to the level the competition is going to hurt it...since Lexus is trying to reinvent their image they should be coming up with ways to ENCOURAGE people to buy the F Sport over the Luxury, not giving them reasons not to. I think its a mistake...and yes...Lexus does make mistakes.
The car should have available leather, power tilt wheel, ventilated seats, folding mirrors/power trunk, rain sensing wipers, foglights. Bottom line...its a luxury car. If those features are important to you, you have to buy something else. Lexus is pulling their punches with the F Sport here, they are minimizing color options, package options, and limiting features to keep the pricing and costs down/ Same with the 4GS. Thats why there is no 3ISF. No GSF. They don't really believe they are ready to put themselves out there so strongly in the F line yet. Maybe they aren't...but IMHO if they aren't willing to really give the consumer what they want...I can understand why a consumer like Ramon may not be willing to write them a check for $50k for what to him is an incomplete effort.
Its a great car, and a huge improvement over the previous car...but it could be an even better car.
Its to save cost...its business 101. If Lexus does in fact think as you do, then they need to have their heads examined. Drive an M5. Drive an M3. Drive a C63 AMG. Drive a SL63. High performance driver oriented sports cars and sports sedans have these creature comforts. Why does the ISF have this equipment? Its way more sport oriented than an IS250 F Sport and from the same manufacturer.
If it doesn't bother you, thats fine...but don't carry on the farce that Lexus has omitted this equipment to make the IS F sport a "better car". Thats just absurd. They omitted those features to be able to deliver the car at the price point and profit margin they wanted to. Plain and simple. Don't be such a fanboy...acknowledge the shortcomings of the car where they exist...the fact that the F Sport can't be optioned up to the level the competition is going to hurt it...since Lexus is trying to reinvent their image they should be coming up with ways to ENCOURAGE people to buy the F Sport over the Luxury, not giving them reasons not to. I think its a mistake...and yes...Lexus does make mistakes.
The car should have available leather, power tilt wheel, ventilated seats, folding mirrors/power trunk, rain sensing wipers, foglights. Bottom line...its a luxury car. If those features are important to you, you have to buy something else. Lexus is pulling their punches with the F Sport here, they are minimizing color options, package options, and limiting features to keep the pricing and costs down/ Same with the 4GS. Thats why there is no 3ISF. No GSF. They don't really believe they are ready to put themselves out there so strongly in the F line yet. Maybe they aren't...but IMHO if they aren't willing to really give the consumer what they want...I can understand why a consumer like Ramon may not be willing to write them a check for $50k for what to him is an incomplete effort.
Its a great car, and a huge improvement over the previous car...but it could be an even better car.
I agree with you that is a matter of lack of confidence BUT it's NOT from the Japan HQ. The fact that IS and GS with ALL the options missing in the US versions are being sold in other countries shows that Lexus HQ in Japan have full confidence that these 2 cars have what it takes.
Note that Lexus HQ has a close working relationship with the local dealers and listen closely to the local dealerships' feedback.
I suspect there is a de-sync between Lexus HQ's and the US dealerships' intentions. Lexus wants to launch the IS and GS boldly and match the Germans option for option but the US dealers are too used to finding success with a business model built upon the price-undercutting ES and RX.
It is the US local reps who don't have the confidence that a fully optioned IS/GS would sell. See for contrast the situation in my country : my local Singapore dealer has no qualms about selling a GS450h F-Sport with Power Trunk, Autofolding Wing Mirrors, Rear wheel steering, Rear View Camera with turning guidelines, VGRS and LDH. ALL as standard features.
The US reps probably told Lexus Japan HQ : " No no no, we can't have an IS350 F-Sport with a base price over 50K. Some other features will have to be omitted if you want AVS and the LFA tachometer on your F-Sport!"
So yeah, blame your local USA dealer or their equivalent regional body for the missing features in your IS/GS. They thought it makes a better business sense to sell without these options, told Lexus HQ so and Lexus HQ always makes it a point to listen to the local regional rep....
Last edited by natnut; 08-09-13 at 01:33 AM.
08-09-13, 12:09 AM
#111
Pole Position
Considering that the GS350 is much smoother than the E350 and the 535i and only beaten in acceleration by the A6 3.0T, I don't think so.
The 3.5L 2GR-FSE also crushes the other engines for reliability and ease of maintenance and isn't as oil hungry as the Audi engines.
I do agree that the 2.5L V6 in the IS250/GS250 is too slow and underpowered and requires updating urgently.
The 3.5L 2GR-FSE also crushes the other engines for reliability and ease of maintenance and isn't as oil hungry as the Audi engines.
I do agree that the 2.5L V6 in the IS250/GS250 is too slow and underpowered and requires updating urgently.
Last edited by natnut; 08-09-13 at 02:59 AM.
08-09-13, 12:46 AM
#112
The IS and the GSh are in very different price brackets. I think an option package with these features would sell, at least have it available as a special order.
Honestly though, I think these things should be included in the FSport package same as they are in the luxury package. I feel the same way about the GS.
Honestly though, I think these things should be included in the FSport package same as they are in the luxury package. I feel the same way about the GS.
Just like not many people pay $60-70k for GS450h.
As I said before, IF GS450h wasnt offered, people would complain on these very boards, but in reality, nobody buys it in the USA and thats why Lexus isnt offering IS300h right now.
And probably doing it this way enables them to price their bread and butter the way they price them.
08-09-13, 02:48 AM
#113
"The 3.5L 2GR-FSE also crushes the other engines for reliability and ease of maintenance and isn't as oil hungry as the Audi engines."
That mirrors my own experience but are not as evident at the showroom. A lower price point is though. With the leading brands offering turbos and massive torque at lower rpms, which is easily experienced on even a very short test drive, a lower price point can help Lexus stop the customer from walking away.
That mirrors my own experience but are not as evident at the showroom. A lower price point is though. With the leading brands offering turbos and massive torque at lower rpms, which is easily experienced on even a very short test drive, a lower price point can help Lexus stop the customer from walking away.
08-09-13, 04:56 AM
#114
I have to disagree about the bolded portion : the RC-F will be the replacement for the current IS-F and the GS-F prototype has been photographed next to the RC-F. There's a huge thread ongoing over at the Car-Chat subforum about these 2 upcoming full fledged F cars. The RC-F will be shown at this January's Detroit Autoshow.
I agree with you that is a matter of lack of confidence BUT it's NOT from the Japan HQ. The fact that IS and GS with ALL the options missing in the US versions are being sold in other countries shows that Lexus HQ in Japan have full confidence that these 2 cars have what it takes.
Note that Lexus HQ has a close working relationship with the local dealers and listen closely to the local dealerships' feedback.
I suspect there is a de-sync between Lexus HQ's and the US dealerships' intentions. Lexus wants to launch the IS and GS boldly and match the Germans option for option but the US dealers are too used to finding success with a business model built upon the price-undercutting ES and RX.
It is the US local reps who don't have the confidence that a fully optioned IS/GS would sell. See for contrast the situation in my country : my local Singapore dealer has no qualms about selling a GS450h F-Sport with Power Trunk, Autofolding Wing Mirrors, Rear wheel steering, Rear View Camera with turning guidelines, VGRS and LDH. ALL as standard features.
The US reps probably told Lexus Japan HQ : " No no no, we can't have an IS350 F-Sport with a base price over 50K. Some other features will have to be omitted if you want AVS and the LFA tachometer on your F-Sport!"
So yeah, blame your local USA dealer or their equivalent regional body for the missing features in your IS/GS. They thought it makes a better business sense to sell without these options, told Lexus HQ so and Lexus HQ always makes it a point to listen to the local regional rep....
I agree with you that is a matter of lack of confidence BUT it's NOT from the Japan HQ. The fact that IS and GS with ALL the options missing in the US versions are being sold in other countries shows that Lexus HQ in Japan have full confidence that these 2 cars have what it takes.
Note that Lexus HQ has a close working relationship with the local dealers and listen closely to the local dealerships' feedback.
I suspect there is a de-sync between Lexus HQ's and the US dealerships' intentions. Lexus wants to launch the IS and GS boldly and match the Germans option for option but the US dealers are too used to finding success with a business model built upon the price-undercutting ES and RX.
It is the US local reps who don't have the confidence that a fully optioned IS/GS would sell. See for contrast the situation in my country : my local Singapore dealer has no qualms about selling a GS450h F-Sport with Power Trunk, Autofolding Wing Mirrors, Rear wheel steering, Rear View Camera with turning guidelines, VGRS and LDH. ALL as standard features.
The US reps probably told Lexus Japan HQ : " No no no, we can't have an IS350 F-Sport with a base price over 50K. Some other features will have to be omitted if you want AVS and the LFA tachometer on your F-Sport!"
So yeah, blame your local USA dealer or their equivalent regional body for the missing features in your IS/GS. They thought it makes a better business sense to sell without these options, told Lexus HQ so and Lexus HQ always makes it a point to listen to the local regional rep....
what I am saying is that in reality, not many people would actually pay $55k for IS... so they make you pick the options with F-Sport.
Just like not many people pay $60-70k for GS450h.
As I said before, IF GS450h wasnt offered, people would complain on these very boards, but in reality, nobody buys it in the USA and thats why Lexus isnt offering IS300h right now.
And probably doing it this way enables them to price their bread and butter the way they price them.
Just like not many people pay $60-70k for GS450h.
As I said before, IF GS450h wasnt offered, people would complain on these very boards, but in reality, nobody buys it in the USA and thats why Lexus isnt offering IS300h right now.
And probably doing it this way enables them to price their bread and butter the way they price them.
Lexus is simply doing what Acura has been doing -- "smart luxury". Acura has never been feature rich and has always lacked even the option to buy certain tech -- but they hit a price point and one gets quite a lot for the price paid. One gets quite a lot for the price paid for an IS.
I really think the cost of adding 3 inches of chassis, metal, carpet, etc. is being undervalued here. People complained about the small back area for years. Now we get more leg room at the same price point.
Also, consider we the American consumer have a part to play -- we expect prices to stay the same or go down despite inflation, etc. We expect the highest quality at unrealistically low prices.
If the IS isn't a good fit -- go buy another car. There are plenty of cars out there -- but most won't buy another car because they worry about reliability and truth be told -- those other cars priced out would cost more than they are willing to pay.
Go buy a Genesis R-spec -- you'll get all of the options you want plus some along with a silky smooth 429hp engine but you won't get a compressor that pumps cold air on hot days and you'll notice the cost cutting elsewhere -- but the Koreans figured it out -- cut corners where Americans can't see cuz all they really care about is what they can see when they buy + tech and options.
Last edited by Glashub; 08-09-13 at 05:05 AM.
08-09-13, 01:02 PM
#115
Lexus Fanatic
I have to disagree about the bolded portion : the RC-F will be the replacement for the current IS-F and the GS-F prototype has been photographed next to the RC-F. There's a huge thread ongoing over at the Car-Chat subforum about these 2 upcoming full fledged F cars. The RC-F will be shown at this January's Detroit Autoshow.
Originally Posted by spwolf
what I am saying is that in reality, not many people would actually pay $55k for IS... so they make you pick the options with F-Sport.
Originally Posted by Glashub
The 3IS is entry level luxury. That is a position, a mindset, and a price bracket. (Don't forget that they also added 3 inches to the car. That costs money. ) I would not have paid over 50K for the car.
All of those improvements exist in other markets as well...and on the luxury model...but on specifically the US Spec F Sport its a cost concern? It doesn't make any logical sense. They leave out all this basic luxury feature set, and the sportiest colors, and now they and the dealers have an even harder time getting people to select the F Sport. I think its a mistake.
08-10-13, 12:08 PM
#116
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So I decided to go test drive the 350 F-Sport yesterday. There was a bit too much traffic to get too spirited, but I managed to get some city and freeway time in. The seats were comfortable but I thought the driver seating area felt a little more cramped than in my 2IS. This could be a byproduct of having the dash wrapped around the driver more so in the 2IS. I mentioned that to the dealer and his response was that it actually has more headroom. Which may very well be possible, but I'm just 5'9" so I didn't notice the additional headroom.
I felt the steering was perfectly weighted in both city and freeway driving. I forgot to check if the vehicle I drove was equipped with VGRS. Overall handling and comfort was certainly an improvement over the 2IS.
The 7 year old engine, REALLY needs an upgrade. I felt like the chassis was bored and begging to be pushed harder than the engine is willing to push it. It definitely felt way more lethargic than my 2IS, especially in city driving. And yes, I had it in S+ mode.
It was a warm day, and if the vehicle was equipped with ventilated seats, I would have taken advantage of that.
All things considered, it's not a bad car and pretty much exactly as I expected it to be. Its got a better ride and better handling than its predecessor but not so good that it made me forget that I don't have the options or the power I'd like it to have.
Would I buy it over a 2IS if I had neither? Absolutely. Would I drop $50k if I already had a 2IS with more options, better power:weight? The answer, after driving it, is still "no" the nicer looks and improved handling aren't convincing enough (for me).
I felt the steering was perfectly weighted in both city and freeway driving. I forgot to check if the vehicle I drove was equipped with VGRS. Overall handling and comfort was certainly an improvement over the 2IS.
The 7 year old engine, REALLY needs an upgrade. I felt like the chassis was bored and begging to be pushed harder than the engine is willing to push it. It definitely felt way more lethargic than my 2IS, especially in city driving. And yes, I had it in S+ mode.
It was a warm day, and if the vehicle was equipped with ventilated seats, I would have taken advantage of that.
All things considered, it's not a bad car and pretty much exactly as I expected it to be. Its got a better ride and better handling than its predecessor but not so good that it made me forget that I don't have the options or the power I'd like it to have.
Would I buy it over a 2IS if I had neither? Absolutely. Would I drop $50k if I already had a 2IS with more options, better power:weight? The answer, after driving it, is still "no" the nicer looks and improved handling aren't convincing enough (for me).
08-10-13, 01:16 PM
#117
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So I decided to go test drive the 350 F-Sport yesterday. There was a bit too much traffic to get too spirited, but I managed to get some city and freeway time in. The seats were comfortable but I thought the driver seating area felt a little more cramped than in my 2IS. This could be a byproduct of having the dash wrapped around the driver more so in the 2IS. I mentioned that to the dealer and his response was that it actually has more headroom. Which may very well be possible, but I'm just 5'9" so I didn't notice the additional headroom.
I felt the steering was perfectly weighted in both city and freeway driving. I forgot to check if the vehicle I drove was equipped with VGRS. Overall handling and comfort was certainly an improvement over the 2IS.
The 7 year old engine, REALLY needs an upgrade. I felt like the chassis was bored and begging to be pushed harder than the engine is willing to push it. It definitely felt way more lethargic than my 2IS, especially in city driving. And yes, I had it in S+ mode.
It was a warm day, and if the vehicle was equipped with ventilated seats, I would have taken advantage of that.
All things considered, it's not a bad car and pretty much exactly as I expected it to be. Its got a better ride and better handling than its predecessor but not so good that it made me forget that I don't have the options or the power I'd like it to have.
Would I buy it over a 2IS if I had neither? Absolutely. Would I drop $50k if I already had a 2IS with more options, better power:weight? The answer, after driving it, is still "no" the nicer looks and improved handling aren't convincing enough (for me).
I felt the steering was perfectly weighted in both city and freeway driving. I forgot to check if the vehicle I drove was equipped with VGRS. Overall handling and comfort was certainly an improvement over the 2IS.
The 7 year old engine, REALLY needs an upgrade. I felt like the chassis was bored and begging to be pushed harder than the engine is willing to push it. It definitely felt way more lethargic than my 2IS, especially in city driving. And yes, I had it in S+ mode.
It was a warm day, and if the vehicle was equipped with ventilated seats, I would have taken advantage of that.
All things considered, it's not a bad car and pretty much exactly as I expected it to be. Its got a better ride and better handling than its predecessor but not so good that it made me forget that I don't have the options or the power I'd like it to have.
Would I buy it over a 2IS if I had neither? Absolutely. Would I drop $50k if I already had a 2IS with more options, better power:weight? The answer, after driving it, is still "no" the nicer looks and improved handling aren't convincing enough (for me).
08-10-13, 03:49 PM
#119
Hi Ramon, did you think that the new power steering is heavier than the old model's?
Not too heavy but certainly heavier.
Though the new model has much more feel and feedback than the old.
The new 3IS also has a much more supple and compliant ride than the old model.
However, are you sure the new 3IS350 is better handling?
Are you sure it has sharper nee quicker changes in direction, and more terminal grip?
I have test driven both new and old IS350's, and own both new and old IS250's, but I personally think the handling has blunted about as much as the straight-line acceleration.
Once we reach the limit of adhesion, I do find that the new 3IS has more benign/safe/controllable nature than the 2IS which would snap out more suddenly.
I don't mind the blunting off in handling, but I wish there was more bottom end torque.
I heard that Toyota is presently developing the next gen Scion FR-S, and they are considering either a bigger capacity, turbo, or hybrid.
I heard that the facelifted FR-S may have a larger capacity.
It will be interesting to see how the facelifted 3IS and next gen 4IS goes for engines...
Not too heavy but certainly heavier.
Though the new model has much more feel and feedback than the old.
The new 3IS also has a much more supple and compliant ride than the old model.
However, are you sure the new 3IS350 is better handling?
Are you sure it has sharper nee quicker changes in direction, and more terminal grip?
I have test driven both new and old IS350's, and own both new and old IS250's, but I personally think the handling has blunted about as much as the straight-line acceleration.
Once we reach the limit of adhesion, I do find that the new 3IS has more benign/safe/controllable nature than the 2IS which would snap out more suddenly.
I don't mind the blunting off in handling, but I wish there was more bottom end torque.
I heard that Toyota is presently developing the next gen Scion FR-S, and they are considering either a bigger capacity, turbo, or hybrid.
I heard that the facelifted FR-S may have a larger capacity.
It will be interesting to see how the facelifted 3IS and next gen 4IS goes for engines...
08-10-13, 04:04 PM
#120
Lexus Champion
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,553
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The steering was certainly heavier with better road feel. I'm basing my "better handling" assessment on that and that it was an overall better ride. I didn't get to really push the car at all to determine which car really has better handling when driving at or near their limits.