Lexus IS And GS Could Be On The Chopping Block
#31
Driver School Candidate
I wonder if Toyota/Lexus understand the core issue here isn't because of the shift in the market desire of the crossover. If you look at BMW and MB, they still sell the bazooka out of the 3 series and C class. The problem here, I think many have highlighted very well, is that Toyota/Lexus has not had a significant breakthrough since like 10 years ago. One thing worth noting out of all the issues people have raised is probably the engine and the inability of tuning them. Toyota/Lexus must understand that as consumers, we love the ability to customize and tune our JDM cars. While styling and other interior features may be subjective, the engine and tuning are the two main reasons why Toyota/Lexus has been seeing a gradual decline in sales across all of their vehicle lines. Precisely, Toyota/Lexus stayed true to their values and methodology behind their builds, but at the same time others have morphed into the next generation platform which is pretty much force induction. Can you possibly imagine a detune version of a inline six turbo pushing 350hp for the IS350 with possibilities of mild bolt-ons that can easily achieve 400whp? Or, a twin turbo V8 in a GSF where a simple tune can bring the hp range to the north of 600? You watch and see how their sales double and triple...
#32
Lexus Test Driver
I wonder if Toyota/Lexus understand the core issue here isn't because of the shift in the market desire of the crossover. If you look at BMW and MB, they still sell the bazooka out of the 3 series and C class. The problem here, I think many have highlighted very well, is that Toyota/Lexus has not had a significant breakthrough since like 10 years ago. One thing worth noting out of all the issues people have raised is probably the engine and the inability of tuning them. Toyota/Lexus must understand that as consumers, we love the ability to customize and tune our JDM cars. While styling and other interior features may be subjective, the engine and tuning are the two main reasons why Toyota/Lexus has been seeing a gradual decline in sales across all of their vehicle lines. Precisely, Toyota/Lexus stayed true to their values and methodology behind their builds, but at the same time others have morphed into the next generation platform which is pretty much force induction. Can you possibly imagine a detune version of a inline six turbo pushing 350hp for the IS350 with possibilities of mild bolt-ons that can easily achieve 400whp? Or, a twin turbo V8 in a GSF where a simple tune can bring the hp range to the north of 600? You watch and see how their sales double and triple...
The issues people have with the inability to tune to them is strictly a car enthusiasts criticism. The average consumer will never modified their car - let alone even pop that hood. Cars are designed and made for the average consumer because that's where the money is. Car companies, like Toyota where profit is king to them, they don't care about the small percentage of car enthusiasts that complain the Lexus IS is too slow. The thing is - there sales won't triple with performance engines that can be easily modified to perform better. Their car enthusiasts market-share will increase, sure, but that's an insanely small percent of people and the average consumer won't care.
The problem with Lexus IS sales compared to the MB C300 and BMW 3 Series is purely the badge and the good lease deals from the Germans. When the 3G Lexus IS first came out in 2014, it came out with new tech, LFA gauges and offered more features than the 3 Series. But yet - the BMW 3 Series at the time (2 years old already) - sold double the amount of the Lexus IS.
Majority of the MB C300 and BMW 3 Series that are sold are base models, stripper models with no options, or minimally packaged vehicles. This on top of the insane lease deals. My local BMW dealer offers a stripper 2018 330i in the range of roughly $200-$300 per month, lease. That's where majority of C300 and 3 Series sale profit come from - its the base/stripper models. I think the take-rate of the 340i is insanely low compared to the 320i and 330i.
True. Some Toyota/Lexus vehicles have dipped in sales but a majority of them are still high in sales numbers. Off the top of my head - Camry, Avalon, ES, RAV4, 4Runner, NX, RX, Corolla, and etc... are still pulling insane numbers of profit for them. While relevant to the topic: The Lexus IS is performing where its usually is. Starts off with 50K/unit per year sales (same as 2006 Lexus IS) and that's with a 10+ year old engine. Sales trend tends to dip for the Lexus IS after refresh - note 2G Lexus IS.
#33
I would never have thought the IS would be killed off, since it was the model that introduced a younger demographic and price point into the dealerships. Now with the UX coming (most likely will undercut the IS in pricing), and the huge shift to anything CUV/SUV, that NEED for the entry level sedan is just not there. People buy the 3 series and C Class because they are attainable uber luxury (not saying that they are in fact uber luxury), and it allows people to say I have a Benz or a BMW, and 99% of people don't ask "oh what kind or what model of 3 series or even what year". Lexus as a nameplate is almost there as well...kind of stuck in between the Germans/Europeans on the right and the other Asian and American luxury on the left. So it's not that the IS not capable or needs more engine choices, or whatever....it's the market trend away from sedans, and the not-quite-there brand cachet. Smart people buy Lexus, but most people are not that smart.
#34
I don't know why an IS (with Lexus reliability) with 350+ hp wouldn't sell like crazy. Never mind mod ability - make it a 3-series killer off the lot. Just keep it under $50k.
#35
Because the volume sellers are not the high output models of any brand. And for the same reason, regardless of how it stacks up, that the RC-F is not an "M Killer".
#36
Instructor
a lot of YOung Buyers gets CLA250 or AMG C45 version of CLA, and the price is CHEAP, MSRP in Canada $ is 33,695$ based , 35,695$ 4Matic and 51,395 $ for CLA AMG C45 , 51k$ CAD they can get a Mercedes AMG bro think about that, you know when Mercedes or BMW comes with a badge like M Series or AMG , they are serious about it, unlike Japanese Cars, people says TOyota Lexus reliable etc but as i've seen so far they are loosing sale, the Asian people now telling me to get Mercedes isn't that strange ?
#37
Instructor
What? The Lexus "F-Sport" is not a competitor to the AMG, M, S, or Red Sport. The "F-Sport" is the competitor to the AMG design pack, M Design Pack and S-Line Black optics Pack, which are all design appearance modifications of their cars.
The IS-F, RC-F and GS-F are the competitors to the AMG, M, and S.
Currently - Lexus doesn't have a competitor for the Red Sport.
To ask what's good about a Lexus IS350 F-Sport is similar to asking what's good about a BMW 330i M-Design Pack? or Audi A4 Black optics pack? Or MB C-Class AMG-Line Pack?
The IS-F, RC-F and GS-F are the competitors to the AMG, M, and S.
Currently - Lexus doesn't have a competitor for the Red Sport.
To ask what's good about a Lexus IS350 F-Sport is similar to asking what's good about a BMW 330i M-Design Pack? or Audi A4 Black optics pack? Or MB C-Class AMG-Line Pack?
- AMG C 43 4MATIC Coupe
- $59,900* MSRP
- Engine AMG-enhanced 3.0L V6 biturbo
- Acceleration0-100 km4.7 sec
- Net power@ 5,500-6,000 rpm362 hp
- Net torque@ 2,000-4,200 rpm384 lb-ft
Last edited by Solara350; 06-15-18 at 08:09 PM.
#38
Lexus Test Driver
I would never have thought the IS would be killed off, since it was the model that introduced a younger demographic and price point into the dealerships. Now with the UX coming (most likely will undercut the IS in pricing), and the huge shift to anything CUV/SUV, that NEED for the entry level sedan is just not there. People buy the 3 series and C Class because they are attainable uber luxury (not saying that they are in fact uber luxury), and it allows people to say I have a Benz or a BMW, and 99% of people don't ask "oh what kind or what model of 3 series or even what year". Lexus as a nameplate is almost there as well...kind of stuck in between the Germans/Europeans on the right and the other Asian and American luxury on the left. So it's not that the IS not capable or needs more engine choices, or whatever....it's the market trend away from sedans, and the not-quite-there brand cachet. Smart people buy Lexus, but most people are not that smart.
The AMG CLA 45 starts at $50,400 base excluding destination. The Lexus IS350 F-Sport starts $45,025 and reaches 50ish thousand dollars loaded. The Lexus IS350 F-Sport is way cheaper than the AMG CLA 45.
And besides - the AMG CLA 45 doesn't compete with the Lexus IS350 F-Sport. The Lexus IS doesn't have a competitor for this segment.
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Burrcold (06-16-18)
#39
I see what you mean, good pointing that out ! you're right ISF RCF GSF are competitor with M2-3-4 S or AMG but we don't have an IS-F for current IS series, AMG CLA 45 is cheaper than IS350 Fsport and it has more power and handling, regardless of reliable for now, lets compare with prices and production line, RC-F brand new 97k$ Canadian are you seriously ? IS350 F-sport AWD 66k $ Cad, have you driven a Mercedes CLS lineup or an M2-3 ? 2018 BMW M3 MSRP is 65k$
2018 BMW M3 is not $65k it's $81,450 and that's with ZERO added options.
A CLA AMG 45 starts at $52,500 with ZERO options added. Tack on about $10k to that if you want a comparably equipped model.
The 2018 IS350 F Sport AWD is not $65k it's $56k and that's with EVERY option selected.
Be real if you are going to try to be logical with your argument.
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signdetres (06-16-18)
#40
a lot of YOung Buyers gets CLA250 or AMG C45 version of CLA, and the price is CHEAP, MSRP in Canada $ is 33,695$ based , 35,695$ 4Matic and 51,395 $ for CLA AMG C45 , 51k$ CAD they can get a Mercedes AMG bro think about that, you know when Mercedes or BMW comes with a badge like M Series or AMG , they are serious about it, unlike Japanese Cars, people says TOyota Lexus reliable etc but as i've seen so far they are loosing sale, the Asian people now telling me to get Mercedes isn't that strange ?
Those badges are well and good until you need a $3000 service just for pads and rotors. I own both a 16 IS and a 15 BMW X5. I can actually work on my IS even with amateur "car guy" skills. The BMW apparently needs expert attention from mythical Bavarian elves earning $500/hr. ;-)
#41
Instructor
You need to go back and check your numbers because they are totally wrong. I'll preface this by saying these are Canadian prices since you are quoting Canadian prices.
2018 BMW M3 is not $65k it's $81,450 and that's with ZERO added options.
A CLA AMG 45 starts at $52,500 with ZERO options added. Tack on about $10k to that if you want a comparably equipped model.
The 2018 IS350 F Sport AWD is not $65k it's $56k and that's with EVERY option selected.
Be real if you are going to try to be logical with your argument.
CLA45 AMG its an AMG They don't have AMG 1 2 or 3 AMG including everything they need in there just ADD ON and IS350 is an F-sport CLA45 got more horses more toys, they have AMG Exhaust sound nice as well, C43 also the same toys with couple thousand $ adding, what do we get from IS350 F-sport ? a ODO Cluster ? a grill ? and rims ? they don't even including Sway bar strut bar and Sport bushing.or F_sport Exhaust and Intake, have you checked an AMG Mercedes ? they have much more toys, regardless if they are competitor lets talk about money we spend$ , where are the fun to drive ? in Canad if i want to add F-sport exhaust, they don't have, sway bar strut bar they don't have, now some dealer has F-sport Intake for 700$+
I'm not hating Lexus i'd like to state out the facts, Lexus parts are not cheap labor isn't cheap either, i just got a quote from Lexus Downtown, Tommy quoted me the RADIO UNIT for IS350 costs 8,486$ CAD, Hey i bought Lexus for RELIABLE
Last edited by Solara350; 06-16-18 at 08:29 PM.
#42
Instructor
Young buyers are not known for their wise car-buying decisions. :-)
Those badges are well and good until you need a $3000 service just for pads and rotors. I own both a 16 IS and a 15 BMW X5. I can actually work on my IS even with amateur "car guy" skills. The BMW apparently needs expert attention from mythical Bavarian elves earning $500/hr. ;-)
Those badges are well and good until you need a $3000 service just for pads and rotors. I own both a 16 IS and a 15 BMW X5. I can actually work on my IS even with amateur "car guy" skills. The BMW apparently needs expert attention from mythical Bavarian elves earning $500/hr. ;-)
#43
Instructor
Very true. There's a good chunk of MB and BMW drivers that buy the base model just to say they drive a MB and BMW. Its like you said, its likely no one will ask about the specs, trims or options.
Exactly what Burrcold said - majority of sales aren't in output models. The base model/lower trim models are the highest sellers. This is why the Lexus IS250, 200T or 300 is the highest sold form of the IS. If there is a IS400 with a TTV6, it'll definitely be a niche sale.
The AMG CLA 45 is not cheaper than the Lexus IS350 F-Sport.
The AMG CLA 45 starts at $50,400 base excluding destination. The Lexus IS350 F-Sport starts $45,025 and reaches 50ish thousand dollars loaded. The Lexus IS350 F-Sport is way cheaper than the AMG CLA 45.
And besides - the AMG CLA 45 doesn't compete with the Lexus IS350 F-Sport. The Lexus IS doesn't have a competitor for this segment.
Exactly what Burrcold said - majority of sales aren't in output models. The base model/lower trim models are the highest sellers. This is why the Lexus IS250, 200T or 300 is the highest sold form of the IS. If there is a IS400 with a TTV6, it'll definitely be a niche sale.
The AMG CLA 45 is not cheaper than the Lexus IS350 F-Sport.
The AMG CLA 45 starts at $50,400 base excluding destination. The Lexus IS350 F-Sport starts $45,025 and reaches 50ish thousand dollars loaded. The Lexus IS350 F-Sport is way cheaper than the AMG CLA 45.
And besides - the AMG CLA 45 doesn't compete with the Lexus IS350 F-Sport. The Lexus IS doesn't have a competitor for this segment.
Check IS350 AWD https://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/config..._AWD#/packages
CLA45 MSRP 52,300$ CANADIAN . Lexus IS350 AWD F-sport is 56,000$ Canadian
#44
Have you ever been in a CLA? AMG or otherwise? It's so poorly built it's crazy! Interior is all hard plastics, definitely not "luxury" to me. If you feel that an engine makes a car, I think it's time you start looking at the Mustang (totally serious).
In any case, the bottom line is that the German competition in the comparable trim are going to cost way more. You can hang your hat on the CLA AMG all day if you want, but I would not want one over the IS 350 F Sport.
Oh and if you try to configure a CLA AMG with the premium package (only thing that comes close to a fully equipped IS350), it is a hair over $56k...To get it to a comparable IS, that would be the premium plus which will bring you close to the $60k category. So no, it's NOT cheaper. Do your homework "bro".
In any case, the bottom line is that the German competition in the comparable trim are going to cost way more. You can hang your hat on the CLA AMG all day if you want, but I would not want one over the IS 350 F Sport.
Oh and if you try to configure a CLA AMG with the premium package (only thing that comes close to a fully equipped IS350), it is a hair over $56k...To get it to a comparable IS, that would be the premium plus which will bring you close to the $60k category. So no, it's NOT cheaper. Do your homework "bro".
Last edited by Burrcold; 06-16-18 at 08:56 PM.
#45
Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
Here’s my take on Lexus vs MB and BMW.
Lexus F cars are powerful but fall short of the big numbers (that’s why RR-Racing is here. Owners of these cars read car magazines and want to be wowed by the big numbers. Never mind that 95% of us mere mortal drivers could not come within 5-10sec of the magazine lap times.
I find that most Lexus owners purchased their car in large part due to the reliability. Many come from the other brands and don’t want to deal with problems.
Lexus COULD Supercharge the v8, or ramp the boost up on the new V6 TT, make 600hp+, but their overriding concern is their reputation for reliability. BMW/MB don’t particilarly care because their customers for the most part are willing to accept reliability compromises.
Why are M and AMG owners willing to accept these compromises? BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE CARS GET LEASED, NOT PURCHASED! In 2-3 years they get turned in and owners don’t give a crap how long they last.
We all know that a GSF purchased today will drive like new 15 years and 150,000 miles from now.
But this is Lexus’s problem.... when they make a car, they are really building it for the 2nd or 3rd owner
Rafi
Lexus F cars are powerful but fall short of the big numbers (that’s why RR-Racing is here. Owners of these cars read car magazines and want to be wowed by the big numbers. Never mind that 95% of us mere mortal drivers could not come within 5-10sec of the magazine lap times.
I find that most Lexus owners purchased their car in large part due to the reliability. Many come from the other brands and don’t want to deal with problems.
Lexus COULD Supercharge the v8, or ramp the boost up on the new V6 TT, make 600hp+, but their overriding concern is their reputation for reliability. BMW/MB don’t particilarly care because their customers for the most part are willing to accept reliability compromises.
Why are M and AMG owners willing to accept these compromises? BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE CARS GET LEASED, NOT PURCHASED! In 2-3 years they get turned in and owners don’t give a crap how long they last.
We all know that a GSF purchased today will drive like new 15 years and 150,000 miles from now.
But this is Lexus’s problem.... when they make a car, they are really building it for the 2nd or 3rd owner
Rafi