IS - 3rd Gen (2014-present) Discussion about the 2014+ model IS models

RR Racing Ultimate Steering Response System (USRS) limited time $20 discount

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 09-05-18, 10:41 PM
  #61  
E46CT
Lexus Test Driver
 
E46CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 8,783
Received 2,181 Likes on 1,636 Posts
Default

Any performance oriented car for the street will have some inner tire wear simply due to the requirement of compliance. All BMW, MBZ, etc do this as they're also designed to have flexible suspension under load. BMW, MBZ uses thrust arms instead of control arm bushings but same concept.

But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.

Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
Old 09-06-18, 01:58 AM
  #62  
OneFastF
Intermediate
iTrader: (2)
 
OneFastF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: California
Posts: 313
Received 40 Likes on 21 Posts
Default

This still going on?
Old 09-06-18, 02:00 AM
  #63  
highrev6
Lead Lap
 
highrev6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 608
Received 87 Likes on 70 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by OneFastF
This still going on?
yes sir, Until the end of September 2018.
Old 09-06-18, 02:03 AM
  #64  
OneFastF
Intermediate
iTrader: (2)
 
OneFastF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: California
Posts: 313
Received 40 Likes on 21 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by highrev6


yes sir, Until the end of September 2018.
Oh Okay! I also realized im on the wrong thread LOL was confised I didn't see this earlier for the IS F
Old 09-06-18, 03:44 AM
  #65  
RRRacing
Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
 
RRRacing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,699
Received 1,400 Likes on 642 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by E46CT
Any performance oriented car for the street will have some inner tire wear simply due to the requirement of compliance. All BMW, MBZ, etc do this as they're also designed to have flexible suspension under load. BMW, MBZ uses thrust arms instead of control arm bushings but same concept.

But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.

Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.

Im sorry, but our product under absolutely no conditions will cause any instability, mid corner or anywhere. The stock LCA bushing is a complete piece of crap, and making it 20pct stiffer doesn’t make it any less crappy.

Our USRS bushings are more expensive because we billet machine our housings from 6061T6. We don’t just press stiffer bushings into a stock core extruded aluminum housing. The issue with stock bushings is not only the lateral movement, but significant axial movement as well, which we eliminate by preloading the bushing with a thrust plate.

Axial movement if the control arm during braking is what causes instability in the first place! When the control arm moves with respect to the chassis, toe changes (actually the front wheels toe OUT), what do you think that does for stability?

Rafi

Last edited by RRRacing; 09-06-18 at 03:47 AM.
The following users liked this post:
highrev6 (09-06-18)
Old 09-06-18, 06:08 AM
  #66  
ZISF
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
 
ZISF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 49
Received 5 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RRRacing


Hi Everyone,

In lieu of a GB, and because we appreciate everyone’s business, we are going to extend a discount to anyone reading this thread.

GB discount of $20 please use code USRSCL20 from now until end of September.

Thanks,

Rafi
Thanks Rafi for posting Simons response. I was a little tied up yesterday evening and couldn't get around to posting the code. I appreciate the discount code provided but like always, we want more but I am thankful for something. I'll make sure to run the idea past you guys in the future prior to getting peoples hopes up. I thought 25+ interested would of turned out to be a good group buy for you and would have enticed you to have a good group buy discount given that we surpassed last years group buy numbers. All in all, always happy to support your research and innovation. Thanks again for the code!
Old 09-06-18, 06:46 AM
  #67  
nan88
Driver
iTrader: (1)
 
nan88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: TX
Posts: 136
Received 27 Likes on 20 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by E46CT
Any performance oriented car for the street will have some inner tire wear simply due to the requirement of compliance. All BMW, MBZ, etc do this as they're also designed to have flexible suspension under load. BMW, MBZ uses thrust arms instead of control arm bushings but same concept.

But yes as said, these aftermarket solutions will help with dynamic tire wear however at the expense of being really stiff. Careful as an overly stiff setup can cause instability mid-corner, say if you hit a bump. The suspension is designed on purpose to have "give" to increase control and driver confidence. It's what made BMW famous in the 90s with E36 and E46 era cars. BMW invented the entire concept of "Elastokinematics" in their suspensions. Its what made their cars supremely stable during aggressive maneuvers on the street and became the standard bearer for any car that wanted to compete in the class it created. Excessive stiffness is not good as tire adhesion is at risk of being broken if the suspension is loaded to quickly. The other part of this is the rear end remains soft while the front is stiffened up so you have the front acting wildly different from the rear.

Honestly I like the idea of the stock RCF/GSF option if true it's 20% stiffer. I'd be inclined to go with that, especially due to price. I understand these business charging as much as they do because of the research, investment, tooling for such a niche/low volume product. But it's still kind of hard to swallow.
I might follow the route of 3IS --> RCF/GSF bushings.

2/3IS --> ISF bushings = 20% stiffer
ISF --> RCF/GSF bushings = +20% stiffer

So jumping from 2/3IS --> RCF/GSF should be more than 20%.
Old 09-06-18, 07:34 AM
  #68  
Flash5
Pole Position
 
Flash5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: GA
Posts: 2,627
Received 459 Likes on 367 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by nan88
I might follow the route of 3IS --> RCF/GSF bushings.

2/3IS --> ISF bushings = 20% stiffer
ISF --> RCF/GSF bushings = +20% stiffer

So jumping from 2/3IS --> RCF/GSF should be more than 20%.
Watch out, RR Racing says they are crap (; lol
Old 09-06-18, 08:14 AM
  #69  
nan88
Driver
iTrader: (1)
 
nan88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: TX
Posts: 136
Received 27 Likes on 20 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Flash5

Watch out, RR Racing says they are crap (; lol
Lol I'm sorry, I forgot Lexus makes crap parts
*Laughs in proven crap Lexus OE quality


Last edited by nan88; 09-06-18 at 08:20 AM.
Old 09-06-18, 08:40 AM
  #70  
E46CT
Lexus Test Driver
 
E46CT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 8,783
Received 2,181 Likes on 1,636 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by RRRacing



Im sorry, but our product under absolutely no conditions will cause any instability, mid corner or anywhere. The stock LCA bushing is a complete piece of crap, and making it 20pct stiffer doesn’t make it any less crappy.

Our USRS bushings are more expensive because we billet machine our housings from 6061T6. We don’t just press stiffer bushings into a stock core extruded aluminum housing. The issue with stock bushings is not only the lateral movement, but significant axial movement as well, which we eliminate by preloading the bushing with a thrust plate.

Axial movement if the control arm during braking is what causes instability in the first place! When the control arm moves with respect to the chassis, toe changes (actually the front wheels toe OUT), what do you think that does for stability?

Rafi
Hello,

You are welcome to your opinion--it is afterall your product. I'm just stating mine, in general on stiffening things up too much.

I am well aware of dynamic toe change due to axial movement or movement in general due to bushings. In a race track setting, you'd be right. Full stiffness and less compliance is what you'd want. But most of us drive our cars on the street. If your wheel can't absorb energy mid-corner, traction is going to break sooner, possibly slowing you down further because now stability control detects wheel slips and hits the brakes and cuts throttle to intervene. If your tires are already at 100% grip in a corner, what's going to happen when you hit a bump? Same reason why we have suspensions. That energy/shock has to go somewhere.

If you notice now even stock, our 3IS stability control cuts in VERY early at the slightest detection of wheel slip. Overall I agree your product would generally provide more feel and feedback in most situations, but as with most things there is a price to be paid such as with an overly stiffer front: understeer. You have not addressed the rear of the car which has a very softly tuned subframe setup

Additionally, this argument has been going on forever in the BMW world. People replacing OEM multi-axis bushings designed to deflect and move with stiff bushings (in this case poly bushings). Just for reference, this is what famous and respected BMW Racer/tuner Team Vorshlag Motorsports has to say about stiffening bushings on a street car:

Many racers just blindly install polyurethane into this and all bushing locations as a "fix" for a worn OEM rubber RTAB bushing. Polyurethane is a bad choice for a bushing material if it has to deflect....

That said, some folks with fully track prepared race BMWs have had OK results with polyurethane RTABs (trailing arm bushings). This is due to the much higher spring rates and smoothness of tracks they tend to run with - higher spring rates and smooth tracks limit suspension travel, and thus limits the potential for bind from a polyurethane bushing at this bushing location. So even though you may hear good results from one racer, it doesn't necessarily mean that poly RTABs are the right choice for you. If you have a street car or dual purpose BMW you should always stick with OEM bushings

Just food for thought. everyone can make their own choice. But there's always a compromise somewhere when you "upgrade" something, particularly on a street driven vehicle. Just my opinion =)
The following users liked this post:
nan88 (09-06-18)
Old 09-06-18, 09:19 AM
  #71  
Spam89
Intermediate
 
Spam89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 431
Received 47 Likes on 44 Posts
Default

Rafi is a great guy and there is no one I would trust except him when it comes to Lexus. We should support him because he is the only person that provides us with great aftermarket support. He definitely knows what he is talking about. Coming up with the first supercharger to ecu tuning, he is a pioneer for our cars. It sucks that the gb wasn't enough but maybe next time.
The following users liked this post:
RRRacing (09-06-18)
Old 09-06-18, 09:49 AM
  #72  
Flash5
Pole Position
 
Flash5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: GA
Posts: 2,627
Received 459 Likes on 367 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Spam89
Rafi is a great guy and there is no one I would trust except him when it comes to Lexus. We should support him because he is the only person that provides us with great aftermarket support. He definitely knows what he is talking about. Coming up with the first supercharger to ecu tuning, he is a pioneer for our cars. It sucks that the gb wasn't enough but maybe next time.
Idk just based off his responses seems like he just cares about money and selling which of course when you have a business is a good thing but the way you go about it is something different and he gives off an unprofessional and arrogant tone. RR Racing may be a good brand, but just based of his responses it doesn’t make me want to buy from them. Calling Lexus oem parts crap just because they do not do the same thing as your product isn’t very professional. Clearly Lexus went with soft bushing to increase comfort they could have made the bushing super stiff and then you’d have people complaining it’s too stiff. They opted for soft and I’m sure that caused less complaints then going for stiff bushings. Just my honest opinion no hard feelings.
Old 09-06-18, 09:58 AM
  #73  
dteskmo
Driver
 
dteskmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alberta
Posts: 87
Received 22 Likes on 15 Posts
Default

SuperPro makes the bushings that FIGS sells. I bought a set of 90 durometer bushings and had them pressed into the OEM housings (unlike FIGS, they don't sell them installed in housings). I find they have a lot less NVH then the RR Racing bushings (which I ran for over a year before selling), cost a LOT less, and still correct the inner tire wear problem. Couldn't be happier!
Old 09-06-18, 09:59 AM
  #74  
Flash5
Pole Position
 
Flash5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: GA
Posts: 2,627
Received 459 Likes on 367 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by dteskmo
SuperPro makes the bushings that FIGS sells. I bought a set of 90 durometer bushings and had them pressed into the OEM housings (unlike FIGS, they don't sell them installed in housings). I find they have a lot less NVH then the RR Racing bushings (which I ran for over a year before selling), cost a LOT less, and still correct the inner tire wear problem. Couldn't be happier!
Thanks for the input, all I really want to do is minimize the inner tire wear problem so whatever does that and isn’t $350 is cool with me so may look into that.
Old 09-06-18, 10:00 AM
  #75  
Flash5
Pole Position
 
Flash5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: GA
Posts: 2,627
Received 459 Likes on 367 Posts
Default

@dteskmo Also would you happen to have a link for those?


Quick Reply: RR Racing Ultimate Steering Response System (USRS) limited time $20 discount



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:39 PM.