The V8 is back: IS 500 F SPORT Performance
#166
Okay so what have your friends actual cost of ownership and reliability experiences have been?
2020 IS 350 F SPORTvs 2020 BMW 330i (not even a 340i)
Depreciation $19,663 vs. $29,322
They are because with normal lease rates and incentives, no one will lease them. The German luxury cars are lease cars because they're only worth keeping during their warranty period. Heavy incentives and rebates at the front hurt resale value, which is why European cars take a huge hit in value after 5 years.
IS 350 F SPORT vs. BMW 330i
Repairs $937 vs $2,585
Total 5-Year Cost to Own: $56,201 vs. $64,556
These numbers are based on 2020 models from edmunds.com.
2020 IS 350 F SPORTvs 2020 BMW 330i (not even a 340i)
Depreciation $19,663 vs. $29,322
They are because with normal lease rates and incentives, no one will lease them. The German luxury cars are lease cars because they're only worth keeping during their warranty period. Heavy incentives and rebates at the front hurt resale value, which is why European cars take a huge hit in value after 5 years.
IS 350 F SPORT vs. BMW 330i
Repairs $937 vs $2,585
Total 5-Year Cost to Own: $56,201 vs. $64,556
These numbers are based on 2020 models from edmunds.com.
Also, my 5 year ownership cost was higher with my IS350 than either of my BMW friends as mine ate through tires and brakes far faster than theirs . Not to mention I got significantly worse gas mileage than either of them and theirs came with 3 years of free maintenance.
#167
Of course. You have Lexus/Brembo OEM Brake components. That's one of the key reasons why Brembo wasn't used on the IS 500 F SPORT Performance. Most people are going to go with an aftermarket rotor/pad setup later on. If you do your research ahead of time, it won't be a surprise. You gotta pay to play sometimes.
Also, screw “pay to play”. $400 for sensors and $1600 for half a brake job is BS.
#168
Originally Posted by EXE46
Agreed!! I made the same comment elsewhere online that someone like myself who's owned a 3IS, it won't be an easy sell. V8 alone isn't enough for me to ditch my M340i for this car since the interior is essentially worst than my 2106 except for the Navi. 3IS still lacks power folding mirrors and HUD things that I enjoy in my bimmer. 18 months in the BMW ownership and I have no regrets leaving Lexus. 200T was slow, plus i don't miss crappy brakes that were shot in one year. If only they had made the IS500 all those years we were begging for more power.
Anyhow, I will give it a test drive to see how it drives. Right now I am 100% satisfied with the M340I's performance. If this thing drives as good as my car and is cheaper I may consider it as a replacement next year summer provided it is under 60k. Over 60k, I will pass since my current car was a hair over 60K and I certainly wouldn't have a problem leasing another new M340i since so far I couldn't ask for a better car. Although, there's a good chance I might upgrade to the new M3.
Anyhow, I will give it a test drive to see how it drives. Right now I am 100% satisfied with the M340I's performance. If this thing drives as good as my car and is cheaper I may consider it as a replacement next year summer provided it is under 60k. Over 60k, I will pass since my current car was a hair over 60K and I certainly wouldn't have a problem leasing another new M340i since so far I couldn't ask for a better car. Although, there's a good chance I might upgrade to the new M3.
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gamma113 (03-03-21)
#169
I'm not sure you do. Just because they have the same performance specs doesn't mean they have all the same parts. IS 500 F SPORT will have good brakes and rotors, just not Brembo branded. The GS 350 F SPORT and RC 350 F SPORT have pretty good OEM brakes that are not Brembo branded. The only Brembo branded brakes are currently RC F only. GS F, IS F and 4th Gen LS 460 SPORT/F SPORT had Lexus/Brembo branded brakes. There are numerous posts here about people complaining about how expensive the OEM/Brembo pads and rotors are, which is why many people here have opted for lower cost aftermarket options as replacements. Toyota/Lexus has always always had awesome OEM brakes in the industry.
Originally Posted by NinjaNap
Also, screw “pay to play”. $400 for sensors and $1600 for half a brake job is BS.
Last edited by flipside909; 03-02-21 at 10:12 AM.
#170
I have some friends that actually bought their 340 (F30 generation). Its been reliable for both with only 1 warranty issue between them. The cost of maintenance is higher though. I have many others that lease them and they get great deals where the cost of an M340 lease is cheaper than an IS350 lease but in terms of ownership costs after 5 years, I wasn't debating that. I'm sure a Lexus will be more reliable, but to many, having the BMW's panache and performance outweigh the slight issues with reliability. I'm not going to go into the 7 series and 5 series as those tend to be way less reliable
Also, my 5 year ownership cost was higher with my IS350 than either of my BMW friends as mine ate through tires and brakes far faster than theirs . Not to mention I got significantly worse gas mileage than either of them and theirs came with 3 years of free maintenance.
Also, my 5 year ownership cost was higher with my IS350 than either of my BMW friends as mine ate through tires and brakes far faster than theirs . Not to mention I got significantly worse gas mileage than either of them and theirs came with 3 years of free maintenance.
#171
Okay so what have your friends actual cost of ownership and reliability experiences have been?
2020 IS 350 F SPORTvs 2020 BMW 330i (not even a 340i)
Depreciation $19,663 vs. $29,322
They are because with normal lease rates and incentives, no one will lease them. The German luxury cars are lease cars because they're only worth keeping during their warranty period. Heavy incentives and rebates at the front hurt resale value, which is why European cars take a huge hit in value after 5 years.
IS 350 F SPORT vs. BMW 330i
Repairs $937 vs $2,585
Total 5-Year Cost to Own: $56,201 vs. $64,556
These numbers are based on 2020 models from edmunds.com.
2020 IS 350 F SPORTvs 2020 BMW 330i (not even a 340i)
Depreciation $19,663 vs. $29,322
They are because with normal lease rates and incentives, no one will lease them. The German luxury cars are lease cars because they're only worth keeping during their warranty period. Heavy incentives and rebates at the front hurt resale value, which is why European cars take a huge hit in value after 5 years.
IS 350 F SPORT vs. BMW 330i
Repairs $937 vs $2,585
Total 5-Year Cost to Own: $56,201 vs. $64,556
These numbers are based on 2020 models from edmunds.com.
Here's an older comparison chart from Consumer Reports which segments short term (3 year) vs. long term (10 year) and it does a good job of showing the dichotomy between the 2 segments when looking at BMW. Short term it's among the lowest cost to own, but long term it's easily the highest (and joined in the top 3 by its Germen brethren). And thus.... people lease...
#172
Not sure about your driving characteristics, but i'm pretty sure you and your friends do not have the same commute or driving styles. BMW makes great cars. The only one I would really consider would be an Alpina B3 if they every brought it here and of course a GR Supra. I'd rather have the GR Supra first.
I would still have my Lexus IS if they had this option when i got it in 2014. Its a fantastic little car.
The following 2 users liked this post by EZZ:
flipside909 (03-02-21),
natnut (03-03-21)
#173
I'm not sure you do. Just because they have the same performance specs doesn't mean they have all the same parts. IS 500 F SPORT will have good brakes and rotors, just not Brembo branded. The GS 350 F SPORT and RC 350 F SPORT have pretty good OEM brakes that are not Brembo branded. The only Brembo branded brakes are currently RC F only. GS F, IS F and 4th Gen LS 460 SPORT/F SPORT had Lexus/Brembo branded brakes. There are numerous posts here about people complaining about how expensive the OEM/Brembo pads and rotors are, which is why many people here have opted for lower cost aftermarket options as replacements. Toyota/Lexus has always always had awesome OEM brakes in the industry.
Okay, so perhaps do some research on cost of ownership on a vehicle you may be interested for your next daily? There are plenty of great threads here discussing costs of these replacement parts.
Okay, so perhaps do some research on cost of ownership on a vehicle you may be interested for your next daily? There are plenty of great threads here discussing costs of these replacement parts.
I’m not talking about aftermarket availability I’m talking about the ridiculous dealer prices that the IS500 f-sport is going to command despite it not being a F car.
#174
I think when comparing cost of ownership, it's worth segmenting time periods (3 years, vs. long term), since so many BMW's are leased. Over that short term period BMW has a significantly lower cost of ownership because basic maintenance is covered (i.e. oil changes), in addition to the highly subsidized lease deals. Understanding it's not completely an apples-apples comparison (unless you're also leasing the IS). Of course long term ownership it's hard to compete with a Lexus.
Here's an older comparison chart from Consumer Reports which segments short term (3 year) vs. long term (10 year) and it does a good job of showing the dichotomy between the 2 segments when looking at BMW. Short term it's among the lowest cost to own, but long term it's easily the highest (and joined in the top 3 by its Germen brethren). And thus.... people lease...
Here's an older comparison chart from Consumer Reports which segments short term (3 year) vs. long term (10 year) and it does a good job of showing the dichotomy between the 2 segments when looking at BMW. Short term it's among the lowest cost to own, but long term it's easily the highest (and joined in the top 3 by its Germen brethren). And thus.... people lease...
Generally most people lease German vehicles because of the enticing payment. Once that warranty is over, it's a different story.
If you want to compare numbers, this is a compelling chart from yourmechanic.com:
#175
The IS500 is not going to have f-sport level performance brakes. Whatever setup that’s allowing the OEM brakes to meet performance stats of an F car will not be cheap - Brembo or not. I’ve read plenty of the threads and a lot of people don’t do DIY they go to the dealer.
Originally Posted by NinjaNap
I’m not talking about aftermarket availability I’m talking about the ridiculous dealer prices that the IS500 f-sport is going to command despite it not being a F car.
#176
No arguments here. This chart more or less backs up that consumer reports chart from 2017. Long term cost of ownership for BMW is through the roof, whereas for Lexus it's significantly lower. My only point was over the course of a lease (3 years), which I believe most people choose as their method of acquiring a BMW - BMW is among the lowest. And for that reason I suggested segmenting cost of ownership time periods. I'm currently leasing an m340i and once my lease is over I have absolutely no intention of buying it out (not because I don't like the car - it's an incredible car - but for the reasons discussed here with long term cost of ownership). It'll be on to the next car.
Last edited by wtwo3; 03-02-21 at 12:47 PM.
#177
Everybody knows the only real advantage the IS500 may have is the long term reliability and resale value but those things don't matter to people who lease and or those who don't consider cars investment instruments. My M340 is now 18 months old and will be making my 4th trip to the dealer end of this month for service. So far zero out of pocket. Also, the services are more frequent so my oil changes occur about every 7k miles since the computer decides based on driving characteristics. My IS200T F sport only came with two complimentary services. Brakes were shot in one year, BMW brakes were at 90% after a year and I drive this thing very hard. 3IS brakes couldn't handle that level of intensity, I would get to my destination and smell the IS brakes burning from being over-heated and that car never saw the track. My M340i doesn't even have the track handing package brakes which are even more substantial than the stock brakes but they're superior to what my IS had by far. As far as reliability, BMW has gotten a lot better than my E46 days. Many F80 M cars and F30's are running big tunes, down pipes etc for years without engines being blown up. I can definitely notice their quality has improved since those cars are running hard and problem free.
As for Lexus reliability it can be luck of the draw, my IS developed an issue whereby it was going into limp mode. It took two different dealer visits to fix it. Fix was spark-plugs and injector replacement; again that car was slow, couldn't be driven anywhere close to my current car. As you can see any car can develop issues. Now, it is true that the typical Lexus will always be most likely more reliable than a BMW but not everybody buys a car with long term reliability being their primary deciding factor. I am leasing the bimmer as I did the Lexus IS. G20 chassis is superior to the F30 by far, the F30 was why Ia defected to Lexus 3IS. M340I pulled i believe a faster lightning lap than the GSF, imagine that. We can already assume this IS500 won't be a better handling car than the GSF since it won't have the bespoke suspension, RCF/GSF tranny and various bits that the true F cars get. If you have only driven a 3IS you'll think the transmission is decent until you try a BMW ZF8 which makes the Lexus transmission feels archaic. A lot of the advantage the M340i has had in various performance tests is attributed to how the transmission is tuned and as well as the suspension. I know the Lexus V8 is great motor but that alone doesn't mean it will be a better driver's car than a RWD M340i. Anyhow, soon we will know how these two cars match up.
As for Lexus reliability it can be luck of the draw, my IS developed an issue whereby it was going into limp mode. It took two different dealer visits to fix it. Fix was spark-plugs and injector replacement; again that car was slow, couldn't be driven anywhere close to my current car. As you can see any car can develop issues. Now, it is true that the typical Lexus will always be most likely more reliable than a BMW but not everybody buys a car with long term reliability being their primary deciding factor. I am leasing the bimmer as I did the Lexus IS. G20 chassis is superior to the F30 by far, the F30 was why Ia defected to Lexus 3IS. M340I pulled i believe a faster lightning lap than the GSF, imagine that. We can already assume this IS500 won't be a better handling car than the GSF since it won't have the bespoke suspension, RCF/GSF tranny and various bits that the true F cars get. If you have only driven a 3IS you'll think the transmission is decent until you try a BMW ZF8 which makes the Lexus transmission feels archaic. A lot of the advantage the M340i has had in various performance tests is attributed to how the transmission is tuned and as well as the suspension. I know the Lexus V8 is great motor but that alone doesn't mean it will be a better driver's car than a RWD M340i. Anyhow, soon we will know how these two cars match up.
Last edited by EXE46; 03-02-21 at 04:05 PM.