Kanpai

Like I said, they don't offer anything close to what Lexus has for driver assists. If none of what is included in the Lexus Safety suite is important to you, then go with whatever makes you happier.

macmaster

Why don't you try putting it through my algorithm.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

felixcat

It turns out the current economy is not as good as people have hoped...

I have asked around some dealerships nationwide, for both cars I am able to find at least one dealer is able to do: 2023 IS500 at invoice (not including the Special Appearance Package limited edition), and 300C at 4% below invoice. Please do not ask me which dealership can do this because people will flock to them and destroy the pricing opportunity.

macmaster

There are actually a lot of Lexus dealerships that sell at MSRP, even before the economy started turning sour. It's all about being in the front of the line or being in the right place at the right time.

TipsyTonio

Invoice and MSRP are two different things so I just want to double check that you do in fact mean Invoice and not MSRP

felixcat

Obviously I know the difference between invoice and MSRP. From the way how the dealerships reacted to my inquiry/negotiation, they are kind of lacking confidence in insisting on their pricing, completely different tone than last year. I feel a couple months later (end of this year or the first half of next year), there will be even bigger discount on these cars.

The all new 2024 Mustang came out, there are so many good V8 cars in the market right now, compounding with the worsen economy, it is trending to the buyer market.

macmaster

I believe it. But there's also still a shortage. And Americans are weird - we must have a new cars every 3 years.

RWCIS500LE

Thought about it, but nah.

Coconut

Of most of if not all of the responses here will be biased but I can tell you this, the IS500 will be the last iteration of the Lexus' performance V8 and the in 5-10 years I'm fairly certain it'll retain it's value better than the 300C 6.4.

jororo

Without a doubt definitely pony up the extra $8k and get the IS 500. It's as close to a no-brain as life offers. Pretty much impossible to imagine that at any point in the coming months/years/decades will the 300C 6.4 be worth within $8,000 of an IS 500, so the 'value' sadly disappears as your net asset value will always be less in a 300C 6.4 than what it would be with an IS 500 (even after adjusting for extra interest & sales tax).

Also the '23 300C 6.4 might seem unique right now, but for 2023 Dodge is offering a couple of one-off, final Hellcat versions that will all but bury the uniqueness of the 300C 6.4 amongst collectors in years to come.

Regardless, no way you buy an IS 500 and regret not getting the 300C 6.4 instead, but seems all but certain you'd end up regret going the other route.

felixcat

I do not collect cars...both of the IS500 and 300C won't hold value - in fact no one should use automobile as an investment tool because historically speaking, most of the one-off type exotic cars even won't hold any value, let alone these massively-produced with thousands of units sold to the public. Let me give you 2 examples:

1. you can think it this way, besides the IS500, Lexus also produced GS-F, RC-F and LC500 which have identical or better drivetrain than the IS500, and some of them are even true "F" models;
2. The latest Aston Martin Lagonda Taraf sedan (the brand's last sedan, with V12 engine), only 120 are built with MSRP = $1,000k (one million dollars). However a couple months ago, there is one unit with only 88 miles on the clock (obviously its owner simply stored it and not drive it at all) for sale for only $800k

A couple years ago I see people claimed the GS-F will be very collectible and hold value in the future, but see how much it worth in the used car market now? What makes or justifies IS500 to be so different than the GS-F to hold value?

jororo

Not saying the IS 500 will be collectible or not, just that it’s incredibly likely to - at all points moving forward - be worth at least $8k more than the 300C 6.4, making the front end value proposition of an $8000 cheaper 300C 6.4 nonexistent in the short, medium and long terms. It’s similar to those people who foolishly buy a new Chevy for $22k instead of spending $3k more on the equivalent Honda, only to find out 10 years later that their Chevy is worth only $2k to the Honda’s $10k. The Honda owner lost $15k to the Chevy owner’s $20k, all while also not suffering repair after repair after repair.

And plenty of cars can make great investments. My two other cars are both worth much more than when I bought them, one by a factor of 5x (FZJ80) in under 5 years. I don’t see the IS 500 being in this category, but I also don’t see it predictably being in a junk yard like so many of the 300C’s predecessors.

felixcat

Based on data we can collect, depreciation curve of lower volume production cars are less relevant to the brand or its "prestige level".

For example we can look at pre-owned market (many resources to check, cargurus, autotrader etc.), for GS-F (total 2,484 made), previous gen IS-F (5,118 made), Mercury Marauder (11,052 made) and pre-face lift 300 SRT (3,157 made), you can see their value depreciation trends are quite similar. So the 2023 300C and IS500 will be no exception as well.

felixcat

Well, after diving deep into some issues reported on the 2022 model year IS500, looks like it is kind of a "makeshift" trim that Lexus did not even consider at the beginning of designing this vehicle.

If Lexus planned to put a V8 engine into a model, it would have taken this into consideration at the very beginning of the design, to make sure it does not need to lengthen/change the front so prominently to make room for the V8. For example the GS, RC and LC - their engine bay packaging can naturally fit a V8 without modification. A heavier engine put in a car which you do not plan to during the initial design, will lead to significantly different stress dynamics and distribution, without extensive car body structure overhaul, unexpected problems will happen. For example this front apron separation issue:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...eparation.html

The root cause is: the IS front subframe/structure is not strong enough to bear the extra weight of the V8 engine, which means when driving on uneven road surfaces, the larger torsional stress (because of the heavier engine) generated between the front wheels will cause excessive "micro twists" effect to the front end, this high frequency small deformation will constantly wiggle the front bumper cover attached to it. Finally the clips that hold the cover to the front fender will give up and fail, and leads to the separation. Because the twist is originated from the bottom of the front end (the engine mount on front subframe), the small deformation of the fender's shape is more prominent on upper side of the vehicle, this is the reason why the separation always starts from the top of the bumper cover.

The reason why some owner see this issue but some do not, is mainly due to the local road condition of where the owner lives and drives the vehicle. If he/she lives in an area with very good road condition, most roads are flat without potholes, uneven expansion joints etc., then the front bumper cover clips can hold up longer; or vice versa, they will fail sooner.

There are 2 options to address this issue:

(1). Beef up the IS500's front structure (highly unlikely due to high cost);
(2). Use stronger bumper clips that will not fail so easily.

BMGS

iTrader: (1)

I owned a 300c SRT8 for many years. It was a great car and the quality was surprising as it was my first and only American car. I modded it heavily to nearly 600hp and nothing broke nor did I have any electrical, body, or mechanical failures.

That said, I would choose almost any Lexus immediately over the 300. The 300 example I owned was a 2006 and the underlying chassis that you would be buying in 2023 is fundamentally the same LX chassis since the original design in 2004. The engine is great but the body control would be more important to me and compared to the IS, it will be night and day. To be fair, it's two size classes up from the IS.

The price isn't bad though. I think the sticker on my 2006 was mid $40k.