jororo

The IS500 weighs 11 lbs more than an IS350 AWD, with both weighing ~140lbs more up front relative to RWD ISs. As the AWD ISs aren’t having similar apron separation issues, the extra weight of the V8 is beyond negligible. Interesting thoughts nonetheless.

The cause of the front bumper clip issue is due a manufacturing flaw that lead to a front driver side clip having an overly flattened lip. Myself, and others on here, have seen this defect first hand. Even under very light driving, this almost lipless clip predictably works it’s way out. Looking back at photos I can see the separation occurring even during the break-in period, when my IS was under virtually no stress other than road irregularities. This has been very well-documented by now and should be about as concerning to a potential buyer as the rated amperage of the USB ports.

As to the 300C, its a parts sharing dinosaur. What is still being sold in 2023 originally hit the market in 2004, with that ‘new’ 2004 model itself being based extensively on the mid 90s E-Class. Some might even argue that the 2004 300C was just a reskinned ‘96 E-Class. But in typical Dodge/Chrysler fashion, to save even more $$ they went even went deeper into the MB parts bin, tossing on a ton of parts from the older E-Class that debuted in 1984. At best, the 2023 300C is effectively at least a 27yo architecture designed using 133 MHz computers with 8MB of RAM.

Picking the IS500 over a 300C is about as hard a decision as going with a nice porterhouse over a two day old McDs cheeseburger. Most of us are dumbfounded that the two are even being cross shopped, but here we are. Reminds me of how foolish I was in my mid 20s when I seriously cross shopped the Z06 & Viper with the Porsche that I (very wisely) ended up buying.

Regardless, best of luck enjoying the 300C should you go that route… can’t imagine the utter regret you’d feel should you ever see an IS500 in the wild while driving a 300C. Guarantee the IS500 owner won’t be looking longingly your way pondering what could have been. The only car I cross shopped with the IS500 was the Panamera 4S Sport Turismo, but I consciously decided to instead put the $70k+ savings towards a new Airstream, so still a big win on my end. Can’t imagine the regret I’d have if my driveway only had a Panamera in it instead of both an IS500 & Airstream. Life is all about avoiding avoidable regrets.

macmaster

Felixcat, you were the kid waiting up for Santa. You were so sure that Lexus would make improvements for 2023, and well....they didn't. No new infotainment, no 10 speed automatic, no suspension improvements, not even a transmission tune or the same LCA bushing the GSF RCF gets. How hard would that have been? Not hard at all. Santa didn't just bring crappy gifts, he didn't come at all. Ok fine, he left you a LED mood light. Whoopdie doo. Wait no he didn't. That was your parents, aka Lexus, because Santa doesn't exist.

Point is, I wouldn't blame you for walking away from the IS500. Your parents/Lexus screwed this one up and it's time to run away from home, all the way to whatever dealership your heart desires. I stand behind you, just like I stand behind Alec Baldwin (because I'm sure as hell not going to stand in front of him).

arentz07

I think this entire post could have been replaced by a link to the "Front Apron Separation?" thread, where you posted the exact same thing. Just to cut down on noise and keep things on topic here.

AmbyBomb

Go ask this question on a 300C forum and you'll get different answers. I wouldn't have considered cross-shopping the IS500 to the 300C even if it was a 2022 model because I haven't thought about the 300C since 2004 when it first came out; it still looks more or less the same and I still think of it as a drug dealer car/car for people who want to fake luxury.

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felixcat

I may be wrong about what improvement in the upcoming IS500 will be - obviously there is no change for 2023, and I do not know what 2024 will become (or, there may be no 2024 if the economic keep trending down like what we have seen in the past couple months). However the purpose I try to gather technical info here is to help me make a better decision. I would like to purchase a $60k range V8 car with ~500hp and sufficient amenities (regardless brand image or leveling) for my portfolio, previously only the IS500 fits the bill but there are some fundamental shortcomings on the borderline of being 50/50 for me. Now I have more choices so this worth some discussion. I would also like to suggest not to take this personal and let's keep the discussion technical, thank you.

felixcat

By human nature, people tend to be defensive or emotional on things they buy or own (to self-prove he/she has made the right judgement, psychologically), so I am used to how owners react on different forums. For me, I will just filter out any non-technical noises, and take useful technical info home.

AmbyBomb

Which is stupid, man. If all you care about is technical information, you can get that from the manufacturers. Lots of cars look great on paper but are garbage to drive. I don't know why you would ask owners for their opinions only to then say you only care about technical information.

felixcat

The front apron separation is one of my concern on the IS500 purchasing. In addition, I would like to summarize cons I have noticed so far on both cars. I hope to gather more details on top of the below list.

300C:

• older platform (by 2-3 years) compared to the IS
• cast-iron engine which makes it unnecessarily heavier
• Narrower rear wheel width which may hurts handling if you track it
• The mandatory pano roof will reduce the whole car body torsional rigidity (this depends on how much the LX/LD platform relies on the steel roof to provide additional rigidity - I will find out later)
• inferior brand image (may matter to other people, but not me)
• Worse refinement in build quality, and some interior areas as well

IS500:

• Unplanned V8 placement in the initial design, insufficient front axle-to-firewall distance leads to near-FWD F/R weight distribution (56/46)
• The above afterthought also leads to various consequences: prominently lengthened frontend and too long front overhang impacts the side profile proportion, and various dynamics/stress distribution issues
• Smaller tire size = more impact forces when rolling over the same pothole or expansion joint, which magnifies the stress distribution problem
• Dated 8AT which does not provide the best shift performance compared to the ZF unit (the Aisin 8AT exhibits "hesitation", with unwanted delay in responsiveness. See the 30-50mph, 50-70mph acceleration test result from C&D, kind of lack behind)
• The factory mandatory moonroof makes half area of the roof unable to provide additional rigidity (I wish Lexus can provide an option to delete the moonroof)

felixcat

Manufacturers won't provide customer advanced technical data. For example, did FCA and Lexus ever publish their car's structural rigidity data? Or 1st order harmonic vibration frequency?

I never defend cars I have ever owned, in fact when others ask me feedback on the cars I have ever driven, I will focus on the negative aspects of those cars. For example I have owned the last 2 generations of 750i, and also the G90. My suggestions is don't buy them. Despite their claimed high rigidity, they all exhibit excessive shimmy/scuttle shake symptoms when driving on public roads, which is caused by insufficient rigidity relative to their long wheel base.

I also owned the last 2 generations of GS350, not good user experience as well - weak rigidity, slow reaction transmission and lazy buildup of torque compared to the BMW 5 series.

The above issues cannot be discovered by some simple 30-minute test drive, so information from existing owners are very important. This is the feedback I want from the forum when making a future purchase: objective opinion.

AmbyBomb

Have any owners published structural rigidity data?

I think you're flip flopping, and what you're really saying is you want to pick what you like and ignore what you don't.

felixcat

To understand how a vehicle perform in the rigidity aspect, one can look at the exact data (from the manufacture); or actual owner reports whether he can feel scuttle shake, vibration under various road conditions and vehicle speed.

AmbyBomb

Which is subjective and hardly qualifies as "technical information".

arentz07

These cars both qualify as "emotional purchase" vehicles. Let's be real. They can be used to ferry people around, but there are better ways to do that. Ultimately, if you can't test-drive the car, you have to hope that you make the right choice. So, I see the value of technical data.

Having said that, the technical data is almost counter to what makes a fun car good. Sure, fast can be fun, or at least exhilarating to a degree. But, I think what keeps me coming back to a car is the way I interact with it. No technical data can really tell the full story of the man-machine connection. And I think the IS has a good thing going on with its inputs.

The only Chrysler 300 I've driven was sadly a rental 2019-model-year car with the Pentastar engine. However, even in that specification, it was not all bad. The steering was actually pretty good - not overly light or numb, and accurate. The ride was very nice, and the ZF 8-speed mostly stayed out of the way. The transmission in that rental was likely tuned more conservatively than it would be in the Hemi models, as I found it to be generally pretty good, just nowhere near as refined and snappy as in, say, my wife's 330i. All in all though, as a family sedan, it was decent to drive.

Where I think the IS has some advantages is just in its size and styling. The 300 is almost its own archetype of a car now. They are everywhere and have been for a while. However, I can't deny, in a vacuum, I don't hate its looks. Compared to an IS though? Yeah, no. The IS is smaller and tidier while being more edgy at the same time. And the newer update makes it look more mature than it did before as well. With it being a smaller car, it's also lighter weight and is easier to park. For me, I would pretty much never buy a 300 because it's just too big. I rarely have backseat passengers, so the IS's somewhat small rear seats are just fine. If you have a family to haul around, the IS is actually a terrible choice, to be honest. It can do it, but the people in back had better be in elementary school, or just vertically-limited adults.

What I can say is that I think these cars are simply for two different buyers, even if they are both four-door, five-seat, RWD, V-8-powered sedans. If that's the only criteria, sure, go for it. A V-8 in a sedan is becoming a rarity. But, I think driving them will feel vastly different - especially when driving spiritedly. The IS, and probably many Lexus cars that are supposed to be more sporty, can feel a little lazy if all you do is leave them in Normal or Eco mode and putter around. But, I have always said they really come alive when pushed hard. It's then that I appreciate the daily livability of them, from the ride to their smooth inputs, compromised only just enough to make them handle great on a back road. This applies to the IS 500 perhaps even more than the lesser models. With the V-8 kept at low RPM and the dampers in Normal, it's sublime to just roll around in. But put it in Sport S+, and it will boogie.

Having said all of that, I suspect there will be some mischief about the 300C. Dodge's recent Hemi cars are known for entertaining whatever sort of shenanigans the driver wants, and being totally ridiculous to drive. So, if straight-up fun factor is important, maybe the 300C will deliver, but until driving impressions come out, it's hard to say for sure. I don't doubt it will be a great driver, but perhaps not in the same way as an IS would.

macmaster

You want a car designed from the ground up? Can you drive stick? If so I think you should get the Corolla GR. It's getting rave reviews unlike the Nissan Z. It also happens to be the highest scoring car to come out of my spreadsheet which hilariously is ticking some people off here but obviously there's some truth to it.



If you can drive stick but must have a V8, I'd consider a Cadillac CT5V blackwing before a 300C.

AmbyBomb

I think I've convinced the wife on a Corolla GR.