Friend hit stop sign doing 40mph and no airbags deployed
10-29-08, 10:00 AM
#16
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^^ Bingo..
Here is the Airbag info for an IS-F example...
View Demo
- A sophisticated network of sensors and airbags [1] help protect you and your passengers in certain types of severe frontal and side impacts.
With your safety in mind, the IS F interior is filled with an array of airbags [1] to help protect you and your passengers during different types of severe collisions. There are driver's and front passenger's knee airbags, front seat-mounted side airbags, and front and rear side curtain airbags. The driver's and front passenger's system utilizes dual-stage airbags that are designed to inflate at two different speeds depending on the severity of impact. The driver's airbag system takes into account such factors as the position of the front seat on the seat track in determining the speed of deployment. The IS F also comes equipped with a new twin-chamber airbag for the front passenger. Unlike a single-chamber airbag, the SRS twin-chamber airbag deploys with a slight depression in its center. This is designed to help disperse the forces applied to the passenger immediately after deployment.
Here is the Airbag info for an IS-F example...
Originally Posted by Lexus.com
View Demo
- A sophisticated network of sensors and airbags [1] help protect you and your passengers in certain types of severe frontal and side impacts.
With your safety in mind, the IS F interior is filled with an array of airbags [1] to help protect you and your passengers during different types of severe collisions. There are driver's and front passenger's knee airbags, front seat-mounted side airbags, and front and rear side curtain airbags. The driver's and front passenger's system utilizes dual-stage airbags that are designed to inflate at two different speeds depending on the severity of impact. The driver's airbag system takes into account such factors as the position of the front seat on the seat track in determining the speed of deployment. The IS F also comes equipped with a new twin-chamber airbag for the front passenger. Unlike a single-chamber airbag, the SRS twin-chamber airbag deploys with a slight depression in its center. This is designed to help disperse the forces applied to the passenger immediately after deployment.
10-29-08, 06:23 PM
#17
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any reason why a severe rear end isn't important enough to deploy airbags?
I mean if it is all about safety why is there no sensors in the rear. Let's just say a large semi slammed into the back of your car. You don't think that someone is going to get injured? Also why only protect the passenger and not the driver. If you look at your owners manuel it shows that if you get hit on passenger side the airbags will deploy but not really so much on the drivers side? Also read what you quoted : "The IS F also comes equipped with a new twin-chamber airbag for the front passenger. Unlike a single-chamber airbag, the SRS twin-chamber airbag deploys with a slight depression in its center. This is designed to help disperse the forces applied to the passenger immediately after deployment." Why doesn't the drivers side have anything like that? Thoughts? 
10-29-08, 08:46 PM
#18
Pole Position
I would not expect the air bags to deploy on a rear collision. You have air bags for frontal and side impacts. If they deployed in a rear end crash they would not reduce the severity of the backward force you would experience in a severe rear end collision.
I suspect that the reason for the difference in the passenger air bag and the driver's air bag is proximity. The driver's bag deploys from the steering wheel while the passenger's deploys from the dash. There is not enought room between the driver and the steering wheel for a two stage air bag.
Normally the side air bags are to protect the driver and passengers from another auto or truck intruding into the interior of the vehicle. My FIL was T-boned and his side air bag deployed keeping him from significant injury.
I suspect that the reason for the difference in the passenger air bag and the driver's air bag is proximity. The driver's bag deploys from the steering wheel while the passenger's deploys from the dash. There is not enought room between the driver and the steering wheel for a two stage air bag.
Normally the side air bags are to protect the driver and passengers from another auto or truck intruding into the interior of the vehicle. My FIL was T-boned and his side air bag deployed keeping him from significant injury.
10-29-08, 08:51 PM
#19
most people think airbags are always a good thing... they can do much more harm than good if the scenario isn't right... and in most cases airbags will not deploy on accidents with a speed under 40mph... but there are always exceptions
10-29-08, 09:44 PM
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Thanks I will tell him.
Here are my thoughts on this subject after reading the entire owners manual: It comes down to a money issue. Which is worth more: replacing a human life or replacing a new vehicle and so far it sounds like the insurance companies would rather pay for bodily harm then to replace a new Lexus. This issue has pissed me off so much that I read the owners manual from front to back and some of the things I came across really made me wonder how safe this vehicle is! I mean before everyone bought their car did they read the entire owner's manual? I know I didn't, but maybe I should have. Pages 77 to 87 in my owners manual, which might be different then yours, shows where all the airbags and airbag sensors are located. It also shows ZERO sensors in the rear and clearly states that you only have to be going 15mph and if the sensors somehow determines the object you are about to hit is unmovable then it will deploy the airbags but if it determines that the object you are going to hit is movable then you have to hit it at a higher rate of speed (it doesn't state exact mph) before it will deploy.
This is what blows me away:
The front airbags won't deploy if
1. The collision is from the side
2. The collision is from the rear
3. The vehicle rolls over
The Side and curtain airbags won't deploy if
1. The collision is to the side of the body other than the passenger compartment (is the passenger worth more?)
2. The collision is from a side angle
3. The collision is from the side, rear, or rolls over.
This basically states and has pictures to go with it that you have to be in a head on collision with an object that the car determines is unmovable or you have to be hit on the side at a certain angle (but it doesn't tell you what that angel is). ***** It sounds like the chances for your airbags to deploy are as good as your changes for winning the lotto.
The one good thing your car has is an EDR Electronic Data Recorder and it records everything that was going on prior to, at the time of, and after the accident so Lexus can download it to see what happened. But there are stipulations on who can see the data and who can't.
Do you think you are allowed to see the data? Nope.. even though it says you should have a right to.
Lessoned learned don't just look at owners manual, but take it, sit down, and read the entire thing.
Here are my thoughts on this subject after reading the entire owners manual: It comes down to a money issue. Which is worth more: replacing a human life or replacing a new vehicle and so far it sounds like the insurance companies would rather pay for bodily harm then to replace a new Lexus. This issue has pissed me off so much that I read the owners manual from front to back and some of the things I came across really made me wonder how safe this vehicle is! I mean before everyone bought their car did they read the entire owner's manual? I know I didn't, but maybe I should have. Pages 77 to 87 in my owners manual, which might be different then yours, shows where all the airbags and airbag sensors are located. It also shows ZERO sensors in the rear and clearly states that you only have to be going 15mph and if the sensors somehow determines the object you are about to hit is unmovable then it will deploy the airbags but if it determines that the object you are going to hit is movable then you have to hit it at a higher rate of speed (it doesn't state exact mph) before it will deploy.
This is what blows me away:
The front airbags won't deploy if
1. The collision is from the side
2. The collision is from the rear
3. The vehicle rolls over
The Side and curtain airbags won't deploy if
1. The collision is to the side of the body other than the passenger compartment (is the passenger worth more?)
2. The collision is from a side angle
3. The collision is from the side, rear, or rolls over.
This basically states and has pictures to go with it that you have to be in a head on collision with an object that the car determines is unmovable or you have to be hit on the side at a certain angle (but it doesn't tell you what that angel is). ***** It sounds like the chances for your airbags to deploy are as good as your changes for winning the lotto.
The one good thing your car has is an EDR Electronic Data Recorder and it records everything that was going on prior to, at the time of, and after the accident so Lexus can download it to see what happened. But there are stipulations on who can see the data and who can't.
Do you think you are allowed to see the data? Nope.. even though it says you should have a right to.
Lessoned learned don't just look at owners manual, but take it, sit down, and read the entire thing.
Airbags are there to prevent DEATH or SEVERE injury. They are not there to prevent scratches on the face or body. In fact they cause many cuts, bruises and can break bones by going off. This is one reason you DO NOT want them going off if it isn't likely you're going to die or be maimed.
No sensors in the rear? Because you aren't going to be slammed into a steering wheel or thrown through the window like you would in a frontal impact. There is also much more area in the rear to absorb an impact.
Determining if an object is "movable" is really just simple-speak. The car will measure the rate of deceleration in the event of an impact and after a certain level the airbags will deploy.
Again, airbags prevent death, not your pretty-boy good looks.
10-29-08, 10:27 PM
#21
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Airbags have not been proved to save even one life. Not one. They've definitely proved they can and do kill, especially small adults and children. They blacken your face with unnecessary bruises you would not have if you were wearing your seatbelt. They break arms and wrists, especially in low speed impacts. They will remove the feet of any hapless passenger who puts his feet on the dash when an airbag deploys (take a drive on a holiday weekend and marvel at how many people seem to be completely unaware they'll lose their feet in an accident if they have them on the dash and the airbag deploys.) Knee airbags will jam that big key ring right into your leg and cause severe injuries if you have a conventional key car. Finally, whatever you do, DON'T lay on the horn before an impact. Your hand will be rocketing back into your face at 200 mph and likely severely injure both your hand and your face if the airbag deploys while your hand is on the center of the horn button.
A statistician at UGA did a study of accident data (not FARS and for good reason) and determined a car with airbags was statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a car without airbags. The study was based on this premise: if we know airbags can kill at low speeds, why is it reasonable to assume they don't kill at higher speeds?
So to get back to your friend - airbags deploy once. Let's assume they actually do something good. If he hit multiple objects, the bags would deploy once and be done. Any subsequent impact would be without airbags, so if they do deploy, you want to be sure they only deploy on frontal impact since they're designed to keep you out of the windshield and away from the A & B pillars. If they deploy in a rear-end accident and you spin around to hit/get hit from the front, you're back to basics and depending entirely on your seatbelt because the airbags have already deflated (and powder burned you...)
If you couldn't guess by now, I have no love for airbags. I used to think they were great until I saw what happened to my ex when she totaled my first Supra in September of '95. Now I think they're the greatest automotive safety scam ever foisted on the public. So, again, I believe your friend was best off without them deploying.
Here's a pic showing the sensor for deploying airbags in a Scion tC. The wife rolled her car on October 15th, so these pics are fresh. The airbags did not deploy in her car, and she was relatively uninjured. She didn't realize she was upside down and released the seatbelt and landed on her head. Anyway, this is where the sensors live on most cars.
A statistician at UGA did a study of accident data (not FARS and for good reason) and determined a car with airbags was statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a car without airbags. The study was based on this premise: if we know airbags can kill at low speeds, why is it reasonable to assume they don't kill at higher speeds?
So to get back to your friend - airbags deploy once. Let's assume they actually do something good. If he hit multiple objects, the bags would deploy once and be done. Any subsequent impact would be without airbags, so if they do deploy, you want to be sure they only deploy on frontal impact since they're designed to keep you out of the windshield and away from the A & B pillars. If they deploy in a rear-end accident and you spin around to hit/get hit from the front, you're back to basics and depending entirely on your seatbelt because the airbags have already deflated (and powder burned you...)
If you couldn't guess by now, I have no love for airbags. I used to think they were great until I saw what happened to my ex when she totaled my first Supra in September of '95. Now I think they're the greatest automotive safety scam ever foisted on the public. So, again, I believe your friend was best off without them deploying.
Here's a pic showing the sensor for deploying airbags in a Scion tC. The wife rolled her car on October 15th, so these pics are fresh. The airbags did not deploy in her car, and she was relatively uninjured. She didn't realize she was upside down and released the seatbelt and landed on her head. Anyway, this is where the sensors live on most cars.
10-30-08, 01:23 AM
#22
Lexus Connoisseur
I don't quite get what you're not understanding. Everything you've listed seems to have a very logical and simple reason behind it.
Airbags are there to prevent DEATH or SEVERE injury. They are not there to prevent scratches on the face or body. In fact they cause many cuts, bruises and can break bones by going off. This is one reason you DO NOT want them going off if it isn't likely you're going to die or be maimed.
No sensors in the rear? Because you aren't going to be slammed into a steering wheel or thrown through the window like you would in a frontal impact. There is also much more area in the rear to absorb an impact.
Determining if an object is "movable" is really just simple-speak. The car will measure the rate of deceleration in the event of an impact and after a certain level the airbags will deploy.
Again, airbags prevent death, not your pretty-boy good looks.
Airbags are there to prevent DEATH or SEVERE injury. They are not there to prevent scratches on the face or body. In fact they cause many cuts, bruises and can break bones by going off. This is one reason you DO NOT want them going off if it isn't likely you're going to die or be maimed.
No sensors in the rear? Because you aren't going to be slammed into a steering wheel or thrown through the window like you would in a frontal impact. There is also much more area in the rear to absorb an impact.
Determining if an object is "movable" is really just simple-speak. The car will measure the rate of deceleration in the event of an impact and after a certain level the airbags will deploy.
Again, airbags prevent death, not your pretty-boy good looks.
And to add onto rear impacts, the ALR/ELR aka seatbelt pretensioners and locking retractors help reduce injury by keeping your body in the seat. There are many new cars out now with active safety headrests like Mercedes Benz for example. During a rear end impact, a gas charge pops the headrest up and forward to help reduce the chance of whiplash. It basically helps cradle your head from slamming back and over the headrest from a rear end impact. Front airbag deployment would be useless as the momentum of your body/head slamming back into the seat is usually what causes the injuries in this type of loss. The seat belt is key as it is what keeps you from slamming your body into the steering wheel and or dash.
10-30-08, 02:05 AM
#23
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ok point take this thread is almost closed except if they do more damage then good
Airbags have not been proved to save even one life. Not one. They've definitely proved they can and do kill, especially small adults and children. They blacken your face with unnecessary bruises you would not have if you were wearing your seatbelt. They break arms and wrists, especially in low speed impacts. They will remove the feet of any hapless passenger who puts his feet on the dash when an airbag deploys (take a drive on a holiday weekend and marvel at how many people seem to be completely unaware they'll lose their feet in an accident if they have them on the dash and the airbag deploys.) Knee airbags will jam that big key ring right into your leg and cause severe injuries if you have a conventional key car. Finally, whatever you do, DON'T lay on the horn before an impact. Your hand will be rocketing back into your face at 200 mph and likely severely injure both your hand and your face if the airbag deploys while your hand is on the center of the horn button.
A statistician at UGA did a study of accident data (not FARS and for good reason) and determined a car with airbags was statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a car without airbags. The study was based on this premise: if we know airbags can kill at low speeds, why is it reasonable to assume they don't kill at higher speeds?
So to get back to your friend - airbags deploy once. Let's assume they actually do something good. If he hit multiple objects, the bags would deploy once and be done. Any subsequent impact would be without airbags, so if they do deploy, you want to be sure they only deploy on frontal impact since they're designed to keep you out of the windshield and away from the A & B pillars. If they deploy in a rear-end accident and you spin around to hit/get hit from the front, you're back to basics and depending entirely on your seatbelt because the airbags have already deflated (and powder burned you...)
If you couldn't guess by now, I have no love for airbags. I used to think they were great until I saw what happened to my ex when she totaled my first Supra in September of '95. Now I think they're the greatest automotive safety scam ever foisted on the public. So, again, I believe your friend was best off without them deploying.
Here's a pic showing the sensor for deploying airbags in a Scion tC. The wife rolled her car on October 15th, so these pics are fresh. The airbags did not deploy in her car, and she was relatively uninjured. She didn't realize she was upside down and released the seatbelt and landed on her head. Anyway, this is where the sensors live on most cars.
A statistician at UGA did a study of accident data (not FARS and for good reason) and determined a car with airbags was statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a car without airbags. The study was based on this premise: if we know airbags can kill at low speeds, why is it reasonable to assume they don't kill at higher speeds?
So to get back to your friend - airbags deploy once. Let's assume they actually do something good. If he hit multiple objects, the bags would deploy once and be done. Any subsequent impact would be without airbags, so if they do deploy, you want to be sure they only deploy on frontal impact since they're designed to keep you out of the windshield and away from the A & B pillars. If they deploy in a rear-end accident and you spin around to hit/get hit from the front, you're back to basics and depending entirely on your seatbelt because the airbags have already deflated (and powder burned you...)
If you couldn't guess by now, I have no love for airbags. I used to think they were great until I saw what happened to my ex when she totaled my first Supra in September of '95. Now I think they're the greatest automotive safety scam ever foisted on the public. So, again, I believe your friend was best off without them deploying.
Here's a pic showing the sensor for deploying airbags in a Scion tC. The wife rolled her car on October 15th, so these pics are fresh. The airbags did not deploy in her car, and she was relatively uninjured. She didn't realize she was upside down and released the seatbelt and landed on her head. Anyway, this is where the sensors live on most cars.
10-30-08, 02:44 AM
#24
Lexus Champion
I could see this happening.
They will remove the feet of any hapless passenger who puts his feet on the dash when an airbag deploys (take a drive on a holiday weekend and marvel at how many people seem to be completely unaware they'll lose their feet in an accident if they have them on the dash and the airbag deploys.)
The physics in this scenario are just not working for me here. What is the tatal travel distance of your average airbag?
10-30-08, 07:29 AM
#25
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Honestly I don't care if you believe what I'm saying or not. If it were up to me airbags would be entirely optional and I would never order a vehicle with them. The add weight, complexity, and put you in close proximity with an explosive charge every time you drive. They violate the fundamentals of safety - they ADD energy to an impact. Since I've been in a car without seat belts ('63 Ford Falcon) that was hit with a full frontal impact (by a '72 Impala) and suffered the consequences (cracked sternum, split chin, major tongue lacerations), not to mention saw the damage to my sister and the driver, I though airbags were cool until the wife totaled the Supra and got a whole lot more damaged than she would have without airbags. I've also broken out the driver's side window in my '88 Corolla (without airbags) with a face plant to the glass, so I know exactly what it means to have glass in my face from not having a side airbag.
I don't trust the government to make good decisions on airbags. They were Joan Claybrook's pet project and she was going to ram them down our throats any way she could. I do trust paramedics. They see the carnage first hand. They see kids killed by airbags all the time, and not because they're in the front - they see kids killed by side airbags too. So, IMHO, they should be optional at best.
Click here for Amstats article on airbag research.
Mary Meyers website about her research.
If you read through this and still believe the hype, rock on. I'm not here to change your mind, only open it to possibilities the government would not like you to believe. This is also not an exhaustive list of the negatives, just a sound statistical analysis of existing crash data.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 10-30-08 at 07:58 AM.
10-30-08, 09:27 PM
#26
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Decision is still out for me?
And what would the damage to your face be if it hit the steering wheel or the windsheild if you were not wearing a seat belt? I would rather have those unessacary bruises than a cracked skull. Or did I miss the point you were making?
I could see this happening.
I am not really up with the workings of how an air bag works, but I would like to hear how they can take your feet off?
I think that is something the driver needs to address.
The physics in this scenario are just not working for me here. What is the tatal travel distance of your average airbag?
I could see this happening.
I am not really up with the workings of how an air bag works, but I would like to hear how they can take your feet off?
I think that is something the driver needs to address.
The physics in this scenario are just not working for me here. What is the tatal travel distance of your average airbag?
All bets are off if you are so stupid you refuse to wear a seatbelt. You should mount your Darwin Award on the dash and be proud.
Distance is only one of the factors. The airbag deploys at 200 mph over 200 msec. That's a lot of velocity turning into kinetic energy. If your hand is on the place where the bag starts, it's going to be in front of the bag when you hit it. So face, neck, chest are all fair game for being whacked by your hand with all the speed an momentum imparted by the expanding bag.
Honestly I don't care if you believe what I'm saying or not. If it were up to me airbags would be entirely optional and I would never order a vehicle with them. The add weight, complexity, and put you in close proximity with an explosive charge every time you drive. They violate the fundamentals of safety - they ADD energy to an impact. Since I've been in a car without seat belts ('63 Ford Falcon) that was hit with a full frontal impact (by a '72 Impala) and suffered the consequences (cracked sternum, split chin, major tongue lacerations), not to mention saw the damage to my sister and the driver, I though airbags were cool until the wife totaled the Supra and got a whole lot more damaged than she would have without airbags. I've also broken out the driver's side window in my '88 Corolla (without airbags) with a face plant to the glass, so I know exactly what it means to have glass in my face from not having a side airbag.
I don't trust the government to make good decisions on airbags. They were Joan Claybrook's pet project and she was going to ram them down our throats any way she could. I do trust paramedics. They see the carnage first hand. They see kids killed by airbags all the time, and not because they're in the front - they see kids killed by side airbags too. So, IMHO, they should be optional at best.
Click here for Amstats article on airbag research.
Mary Meyers website about her research.
If you read through this and still believe the hype, rock on. I'm not here to change your mind, only open it to possibilities the government would not like you to believe. This is also not an exhaustive list of the negatives, just a sound statistical analysis of existing crash data.
Distance is only one of the factors. The airbag deploys at 200 mph over 200 msec. That's a lot of velocity turning into kinetic energy. If your hand is on the place where the bag starts, it's going to be in front of the bag when you hit it. So face, neck, chest are all fair game for being whacked by your hand with all the speed an momentum imparted by the expanding bag.
Honestly I don't care if you believe what I'm saying or not. If it were up to me airbags would be entirely optional and I would never order a vehicle with them. The add weight, complexity, and put you in close proximity with an explosive charge every time you drive. They violate the fundamentals of safety - they ADD energy to an impact. Since I've been in a car without seat belts ('63 Ford Falcon) that was hit with a full frontal impact (by a '72 Impala) and suffered the consequences (cracked sternum, split chin, major tongue lacerations), not to mention saw the damage to my sister and the driver, I though airbags were cool until the wife totaled the Supra and got a whole lot more damaged than she would have without airbags. I've also broken out the driver's side window in my '88 Corolla (without airbags) with a face plant to the glass, so I know exactly what it means to have glass in my face from not having a side airbag.
I don't trust the government to make good decisions on airbags. They were Joan Claybrook's pet project and she was going to ram them down our throats any way she could. I do trust paramedics. They see the carnage first hand. They see kids killed by airbags all the time, and not because they're in the front - they see kids killed by side airbags too. So, IMHO, they should be optional at best.
Click here for Amstats article on airbag research.
Mary Meyers website about her research.
If you read through this and still believe the hype, rock on. I'm not here to change your mind, only open it to possibilities the government would not like you to believe. This is also not an exhaustive list of the negatives, just a sound statistical analysis of existing crash data.
Is it not still possible to slam your face into the dash or window even with a seatbelt on? Ok What it looks like it comes down to is do they prevent or cause more damage! The manuel for the IS-F states that the passengers should sit (not lean back) back as far as possible as well as keep kids even tall or large kids out of the front, which would then put them in the back so they say that airbags are more dangerous for kids. I even think seat belts aren't designed for kids and that could be changed too. So Lexus agrees that airbags are more dangerous for children & Babies. Not real clear about adults.
Another thing: Don't vehicles go through repeated crash tests. Wouldn't those tests in all actuality prove that airbags have a higher % at preventing injuries/death then without?
OK let's use your kinetic theory here: what's the persons hand going to do if no airbag deploys.. Stay on the dash? Also doesn't the airbag deploy in two stages. A slow one and fast one?
I work at a hospital so I will go ask the paramedics what they think from what they have seen and let you know. I also thought airbags were optional! Can't you get them turned off? If you can't turn them off then can't you have them removed?
I have yet to read the provided links, which I will here shortly. I can truly understand that airbags are dangerous for children & babies. But how do you conclude that your wife would have been better off without airbags? It is not like she had the same accident without airbags? Maybe she could have been worse without them? Not trying to say you don't know what you are talking about just asking if they didn't go off what might have happened
BTW were these studies the only ones that showed the true dangers of airbags? In your research did you also find studies that showed the opposite? Believe me I am the last one to trust what Governments say but from all the Threads on here I can tell that the majority of people believe what large Corporations say. Might want to look into who is really running the country. I am sure I can find plenty of links that show why we are called Corporate America! Sorry off topic. Too much meds
Sorry is the Government making the money on the airbags or is it some Corporation making money on airbags which might behoove them to monetarily support our Government causing them to come to the same conclusion as the Corporations?
So maybe you are right..hmmm
Last edited by tastemydus; 10-30-08 at 09:41 PM. Reason: spelling cut and paste
10-30-08, 09:45 PM
#27
Lexus Champion
Distance is only one of the factors. The airbag deploys at 200 mph over 200 msec. That's a lot of velocity turning into kinetic energy. If your hand is on the place where the bag starts, it's going to be in front of the bag when you hit it. So face, neck, chest are all fair game for being whacked by your hand with all the speed an momentum imparted by the expanding bag.
Honestly I don't care if you believe what I'm saying or not. If it were up to me airbags would be entirely optional and I would never order a vehicle with them. The add weight, complexity, and put you in close proximity with an explosive charge every time you drive. They violate the fundamentals of safety - they ADD energy to an impact. Since I've been in a car without seat belts ('63 Ford Falcon) that was hit with a full frontal impact (by a '72 Impala) and suffered the consequences (cracked sternum, split chin, major tongue lacerations), not to mention saw the damage to my sister and the driver, I though airbags were cool until the wife totaled the Supra and got a whole lot more damaged than she would have without airbags. I've also broken out the driver's side window in my '88 Corolla (without airbags) with a face plant to the glass, so I know exactly what it means to have glass in my face from not having a side airbag.
I don't trust the government to make good decisions on airbags. They were Joan Claybrook's pet project and she was going to ram them down our throats any way she could. I do trust paramedics. They see the carnage first hand. They see kids killed by airbags all the time, and not because they're in the front - they see kids killed by side airbags too. So, IMHO, they should be optional at best.
Click here for Amstats article on airbag research.
Mary Meyers website about her research.
If you read through this and still believe the hype, rock on. I'm not here to change your mind, only open it to possibilities the government would not like you to believe. This is also not an exhaustive list of the negatives, just a sound statistical analysis of existing crash data.
Honestly I don't care if you believe what I'm saying or not. If it were up to me airbags would be entirely optional and I would never order a vehicle with them. The add weight, complexity, and put you in close proximity with an explosive charge every time you drive. They violate the fundamentals of safety - they ADD energy to an impact. Since I've been in a car without seat belts ('63 Ford Falcon) that was hit with a full frontal impact (by a '72 Impala) and suffered the consequences (cracked sternum, split chin, major tongue lacerations), not to mention saw the damage to my sister and the driver, I though airbags were cool until the wife totaled the Supra and got a whole lot more damaged than she would have without airbags. I've also broken out the driver's side window in my '88 Corolla (without airbags) with a face plant to the glass, so I know exactly what it means to have glass in my face from not having a side airbag.
I don't trust the government to make good decisions on airbags. They were Joan Claybrook's pet project and she was going to ram them down our throats any way she could. I do trust paramedics. They see the carnage first hand. They see kids killed by airbags all the time, and not because they're in the front - they see kids killed by side airbags too. So, IMHO, they should be optional at best.
Click here for Amstats article on airbag research.
Mary Meyers website about her research.
If you read through this and still believe the hype, rock on. I'm not here to change your mind, only open it to possibilities the government would not like you to believe. This is also not an exhaustive list of the negatives, just a sound statistical analysis of existing crash data.
And if you were to believe statistics I find these statements ridiculus,
This is what seems to be happening with airbags. In a severe accident, airbags can save lives. However, they are inherently dangerous and pose a risk to the occupant. Our analyses show that in lower-speed crashes, the occupant is significantly more likely to die with an airbag than without. This effect is not seen in the analysis using FARS, because this database does not contain information about low-speed crashes without deaths.
Anyway, I am not trying to argue with you, on the contray I want to find out if air bags really are a threat, but from my experience I have say that they are similar to seat belts, they have their dangers but the majority of the time they do more good than bad.
10-31-08, 03:27 PM
#28
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Airbags have not been proved to save even one life. Not one. They've definitely proved they can and do kill, especially small adults and children. They blacken your face with unnecessary bruises you would not have if you were wearing your seatbelt. They break arms and wrists, especially in low speed impacts. They will remove the feet of any hapless passenger who puts his feet on the dash when an airbag deploys (take a drive on a holiday weekend and marvel at how many people seem to be completely unaware they'll lose their feet in an accident if they have them on the dash and the airbag deploys.) Knee airbags will jam that big key ring right into your leg and cause severe injuries if you have a conventional key car. Finally, whatever you do, DON'T lay on the horn before an impact. Your hand will be rocketing back into your face at 200 mph and likely severely injure both your hand and your face if the airbag deploys while your hand is on the center of the horn button.
A statistician at UGA did a study of accident data (not FARS and for good reason) and determined a car with airbags was statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a car without airbags. The study was based on this premise: if we know airbags can kill at low speeds, why is it reasonable to assume they don't kill at higher speeds?
So to get back to your friend - airbags deploy once. Let's assume they actually do something good. If he hit multiple objects, the bags would deploy once and be done. Any subsequent impact would be without airbags, so if they do deploy, you want to be sure they only deploy on frontal impact since they're designed to keep you out of the windshield and away from the A & B pillars. If they deploy in a rear-end accident and you spin around to hit/get hit from the front, you're back to basics and depending entirely on your seatbelt because the airbags have already deflated (and powder burned you...)
If you couldn't guess by now, I have no love for airbags. I used to think they were great until I saw what happened to my ex when she totaled my first Supra in September of '95. Now I think they're the greatest automotive safety scam ever foisted on the public. So, again, I believe your friend was best off without them deploying.
Here's a pic showing the sensor for deploying airbags in a Scion tC. The wife rolled her car on October 15th, so these pics are fresh. The airbags did not deploy in her car, and she was relatively uninjured. She didn't realize she was upside down and released the seatbelt and landed on her head. Anyway, this is where the sensors live on most cars.
A statistician at UGA did a study of accident data (not FARS and for good reason) and determined a car with airbags was statistically more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than a car without airbags. The study was based on this premise: if we know airbags can kill at low speeds, why is it reasonable to assume they don't kill at higher speeds?
So to get back to your friend - airbags deploy once. Let's assume they actually do something good. If he hit multiple objects, the bags would deploy once and be done. Any subsequent impact would be without airbags, so if they do deploy, you want to be sure they only deploy on frontal impact since they're designed to keep you out of the windshield and away from the A & B pillars. If they deploy in a rear-end accident and you spin around to hit/get hit from the front, you're back to basics and depending entirely on your seatbelt because the airbags have already deflated (and powder burned you...)
If you couldn't guess by now, I have no love for airbags. I used to think they were great until I saw what happened to my ex when she totaled my first Supra in September of '95. Now I think they're the greatest automotive safety scam ever foisted on the public. So, again, I believe your friend was best off without them deploying.
Here's a pic showing the sensor for deploying airbags in a Scion tC. The wife rolled her car on October 15th, so these pics are fresh. The airbags did not deploy in her car, and she was relatively uninjured. She didn't realize she was upside down and released the seatbelt and landed on her head. Anyway, this is where the sensors live on most cars.
Also, as far as airbags being good for one impact. This isn't true. Current generations of airbags, typically side curtain airbags, can stay inflated for many seconds. This is particularly geared towards reducing injuries in a rollover accidents.
Placing your HAND on the horn will not cause it to be flung into your face. On every vehicle I've seen, the front cover opens in an upward direction. The bag also inflates in this direction. Your hand and arm will be thrown upwards, most likely well above your head.
There are _many_ factors that influence the deployment of airbags, and your wifes Scion not deploying was probably by design. I am not sure if it has an electronic gryo to detect rollovers like some cars do, but something clearly made the computer think the airbags were not necessary(or the sensors were broke). Judging by the pictures it doesn't appear to have been a high speed rollover or anything more than just a flop(I am not downplaying the severity of the crash, just viewing the crash from the computers perspective). I've personally witnessed rollovers that were essentially just flops, and were well below the speeds necessary to deploy, and didn't have a solid IMPACT associated with them. tires/wheels just happened to grab curbs or other objects.
10-31-08, 07:37 PM
#29
Tech Info Resource
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Apparently you'd all like to take issue with my stance. I'm not here to argue it. Reread what I wrote. There's a lot of reading into what I said going on here. I write at face value - I'm not a poet. Read it at face value.
If you want to believe airbags save lives, rock on. If you think the $30B we've spent on airbags over the last 10 years is worthwhile when IMHO all it has done is increase minimum cost and minimum weight of every vehicle sold in the US, rock on.
To answer some specifics - NO you can't hit your head on the windshield with your seatbelt on. If you could it would be completely and utterly useless. You can hit your head on the side window since seat belts in cars do a poor job of lateral control.
Using FARS to measure the efficacy of airbags is like choosing a group of terminal cancer patients for drug testing a cholesterol drug. Your sample pool is tainted. In order for a statistical analysis to be valid it needs to include ALL accident types, not just fatal accidents. Government statistical analyses of FARS indicate airbags are effective in restraining and reducing injury in unbelted car occupants. There is no significant statistical difference between belted occupants with or without airbags in fatal accidents. If you want to argue with the conclusions of a statistical analysis you would need to take it up with the study's author. She's taken loads of abuse from government sources because the government can't afford to admit it made a mistake and killed a few hundred children and small adults with airbags they mandated.
NO airbags are NOT optional, and removing or disabling them is a Federal offense.
The airbags didn't deploy in the wife's tC and rightly so. There was no sudden frontal impact. I did not in any way imply they should have deployed. And the assessment of the speed and severity of the accident is completely wrong. She was traveling 65 mph, swerved to miss a dog, and rolled the car when a wheel went off the pavement down a small berm and she tried to steer back onto the road without stopping. Predictably, the car rolled. It hit nothing solid other than a road sign. The car did precisely what I would expect and precisely what was required to keep her safe. Had she not released her seat belt while inverted she would only have had minor cuts and bruises from glass shards and the roll itself. I included the picture to do ONE thing - show where the sensors are mounted. NOTHING ELSE.
More on Mary C. Meyer's work here.
More reading for those who are interested. This piece is written by Leonard Evans.
An oldie but a goodie.
If you want to believe airbags save lives, rock on. If you think the $30B we've spent on airbags over the last 10 years is worthwhile when IMHO all it has done is increase minimum cost and minimum weight of every vehicle sold in the US, rock on.
To answer some specifics - NO you can't hit your head on the windshield with your seatbelt on. If you could it would be completely and utterly useless. You can hit your head on the side window since seat belts in cars do a poor job of lateral control.
Using FARS to measure the efficacy of airbags is like choosing a group of terminal cancer patients for drug testing a cholesterol drug. Your sample pool is tainted. In order for a statistical analysis to be valid it needs to include ALL accident types, not just fatal accidents. Government statistical analyses of FARS indicate airbags are effective in restraining and reducing injury in unbelted car occupants. There is no significant statistical difference between belted occupants with or without airbags in fatal accidents. If you want to argue with the conclusions of a statistical analysis you would need to take it up with the study's author. She's taken loads of abuse from government sources because the government can't afford to admit it made a mistake and killed a few hundred children and small adults with airbags they mandated.
NO airbags are NOT optional, and removing or disabling them is a Federal offense.
The airbags didn't deploy in the wife's tC and rightly so. There was no sudden frontal impact. I did not in any way imply they should have deployed. And the assessment of the speed and severity of the accident is completely wrong. She was traveling 65 mph, swerved to miss a dog, and rolled the car when a wheel went off the pavement down a small berm and she tried to steer back onto the road without stopping. Predictably, the car rolled. It hit nothing solid other than a road sign. The car did precisely what I would expect and precisely what was required to keep her safe. Had she not released her seat belt while inverted she would only have had minor cuts and bruises from glass shards and the roll itself. I included the picture to do ONE thing - show where the sensors are mounted. NOTHING ELSE.
More on Mary C. Meyer's work here.
More reading for those who are interested. This piece is written by Leonard Evans.
Leonard Evans is an internationally-renowned traffic safety expert who holds a doctorate in physics from Oxford University, England. He has presented traffic-safety lectures, including 22 Keynote Addresses, in 30 countries. His 169 publications include Traffic Safety (2004) and his distinctly different earlier book Traffic Safety and the Driver (1991). His research has appeared in 48 different technical journals.
Dr. Evans has received many recognitions, including awards from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the International Association for Accident and Traffic Medicine, the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society, the Detroit Institute of Ophthalmology, the Society of Automotive Engineers, and General Motors.
He has been president of the International Traffic Medicine Association (ITMA) and the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine (AAAM), the only individual to have headed both organizations. He is president of Science Serving Society, a one-man organization he formed in 2000 to continue research and other professional activities after completing a 33-year research career with GM.
Dr. Evans was a Sigma Xi Distinguished Lecturer (2001-2), and recipient of the Society of Automotive Engineer’s Lloyd L. Withrow Distinguished Speaker Award (2005, and also 2006). He is a fellow of the SAE, a fellow of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society, a fellow of the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, and a member of the National Academy of Engineering.
Dr. Evans has received many recognitions, including awards from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, the International Association for Accident and Traffic Medicine, the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society, the Detroit Institute of Ophthalmology, the Society of Automotive Engineers, and General Motors.
He has been president of the International Traffic Medicine Association (ITMA) and the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine (AAAM), the only individual to have headed both organizations. He is president of Science Serving Society, a one-man organization he formed in 2000 to continue research and other professional activities after completing a 33-year research career with GM.
Dr. Evans was a Sigma Xi Distinguished Lecturer (2001-2), and recipient of the Society of Automotive Engineer’s Lloyd L. Withrow Distinguished Speaker Award (2005, and also 2006). He is a fellow of the SAE, a fellow of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society, a fellow of the Association for the Advancement of Automotive Medicine, and a member of the National Academy of Engineering.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 10-31-08 at 07:48 PM.
11-01-08, 08:09 AM
#30
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Forgive me for speaking out of turn, because I haven't read all the posts on this thread (they are quite lengthy). But if you guys are seriously pondering whether or not seatbelts are more of a health hazard then a life saver, that is rediculous.
As far as the seatbelts not going off: Cars and technology are getting a lot more "smart" these days. The cars computers can tell where the impact came from and what the cars trajectory will be. Like if you hit a curb in an SUV and it begins to start rolling, the side curtain airbags will go off. But there is no reason the front bags to engage unless you have impact head on. That would possibly jostle the passengers unnecessarily. This kind of stuff is way over my head, cuz I'm no engineer developing airbags nor could I. About 3 years ago I was in a head on crash, not going too fast probably 20 mph, and my airbags did not deploy. Didn't matter either way, I didn't hit my head/face on anything. Just wasn't enough impact plain and simple.
Im glad your friends are ok. But this looks like the biggest case of GROUPTHINK I have ever seen. Basically convicing each other seatbelts and airbags don't save lives. With all the kids visiting these forums, it's almost rediculous that it is still allowed to be up IMO.
As far as the seatbelts not going off: Cars and technology are getting a lot more "smart" these days. The cars computers can tell where the impact came from and what the cars trajectory will be. Like if you hit a curb in an SUV and it begins to start rolling, the side curtain airbags will go off. But there is no reason the front bags to engage unless you have impact head on. That would possibly jostle the passengers unnecessarily. This kind of stuff is way over my head, cuz I'm no engineer developing airbags nor could I. About 3 years ago I was in a head on crash, not going too fast probably 20 mph, and my airbags did not deploy. Didn't matter either way, I didn't hit my head/face on anything. Just wasn't enough impact plain and simple.
Im glad your friends are ok. But this looks like the biggest case of GROUPTHINK I have ever seen. Basically convicing each other seatbelts and airbags don't save lives. With all the kids visiting these forums, it's almost rediculous that it is still allowed to be up IMO.