ISFer

iTrader: (2)

Lobux:
There are examples of water injection/induction into the engine over the years -- I can think of Chrysler doing this in the years gone by, so I believe there is some benefit from water injection/induction, but can you explain what procedure you use please.
Thanks,
ISFer

hahahaf

iTrader: (2)

yes please elaborate

Joe Z

iTrader: (10)

I would say no....

Ekorre

I am not sure exactly what he meant by his comment, as you cannot just literally put water through the induction path, but in other cars, particularly turbo charged ones, sometimes we would setup a water/meth injection kit usually before or in the intake manifold.

The water and methane will cool the charge (of air) and allow you to run a little safer from detonating. The methane also increases the octane of the fuel, so essentially you are adding a few points of octane, which is always useful in cars boosting higher amounts and with aggressive timing...

The cooler charge is holding more oxygen as well, so the timing will fire like it would on a colder day.

There are many different water injection kits that spray into the induction path. Some are very simple. and others can get pretty complex, like the Aquamist setup, iirc.

I am not sure if that is what he meant. The only method I know that really cleans out the carbon deposits, once they are there-meth and water can prevent the collection of deposits I think, is by physically getting to the valves and air blasting the valves with walnut shell..all the other detergents, even sea foam were not effective enough on the audi engines. They would have preffered to just use sea foam rather than the invasive procedure of opening the top of the engine up, but it wasnt working.


that is so awesome btw that the ISF has both forms of injection, I was wondering what the hell all the extra lines and tubing was on top of the engine, this would explain some of it.

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Yes you can literally put water through the induction system in a car. I've literally poured water into a carburetor while the engine was running to clean out carbon. You don't need a kit or an injection set up. You just need a port on the vacuum side of the throttlebody, a hose, and a container with water in it. If you're worried about hydrolocking the thing, put a restriction in the line with the water in it, but generally speaking, you can remove the PCV valve, stuff a hose in the hole and run water through the engine to de-carbon it pretty quickly. This works by removing heat from the carbon faster than the underlying metal, so the carbon flakes off.

No, the water and the methanol don't "cool" the charge, their heat of vaporization removes heat from the compression cycle by taking it to vaporize the liquid. This is true for any injected liquid, even gasoline, which is why running richer helps control detonation.

raptor22

nice thread.

so why doesn't lexus have both DI and port injection for the 4GR-FSE in the IS250? maybe they figure the car is so slow anyway that any further reduction in performance due to carbon deposit can't make it go any slower LOL j/k j/k.

seriously though, is it due to cost? design consideration? or perhaps it's an older engine compared to e.g. the 2GR-FSE?

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

It's an older design. There's some history here.

Ekorre

not trying to argue , just give the people the info.

YES it DOES cool the intake charge, the effect your mentioning is not what's primarily cooling the charge as it comes in.. I've seen it first hand when logging the intake air temps on engines running meth water injection. Youll see the IAT'S DROP sometimes as much as 10 degrees when the system goes on.

this is from wiki regarding water meth injection in cylindrical combustion engines:

In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

It's pretty intuitive, when the cooler temped water gets sprayed into hotter air its immediately going to reduce the temp, its the same reason the location of the nozzle mattered so much, if you plumb it in too far down the intake stream your going to lose alot of the cooling effect as the air is going to heat up again all the way into the cylinder, too close and you have other risks, too much water and it's going to possibly pool, which also is what makes me question your hose method, as its not being atomized or sprayed.

additionally , engines running rich to not detonate is primarily to manipulate A/F mixtures away from lean, its not primarily to reduce the temp of the charge/

as far as your water cleaning, have you done it on a fuel injected engine? not a carb'd engine? I can see spraying it in, but I cant see how you could use a hose and just let it loose, depending on the volume its not going to steam up enough etc. But if you have had success doing this method on a fuel injected engine then game on

trixxx519

iTrader: (14)

lob, do you have pictures along to what you're saying? im kinda confuse as i dont understand engine terms
edit-i drive an 06 is250 and i would like to clean the carbon every so often from now on

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

How about pouring it in from a container in a liquid stream right down the carburetor as fast as I could pour with the engine running at 2000 rpm? It doesn't need to atomize to decarbon, it's going to flash boil very quickly on the backs of the closed intake valves. I've done this on my own Supra with one of the throttlebody bleeds, so, yes, I've done this on a fuel injected engine with success.

There are so many endo/exo thermic actions going on when you spray anything, saying the water and meth cools the charge is guesswork at best. Where and how did you measure? Are you familiar with wet and dry bulb temperature measurements and the effect of a liquid in contact with a measuring device vs. the device being dry? I'm confident you observed a temperature drop, but it might not at all be for the reasons you present.

Besides, there's no such thing as "cooling" - either heat is present or its not. Cold is a concept and a poor one at that. It only describes an absence of heat. The heat in the intake charge is being absorbed by the water/meth mixture because the water/meth mixture went from high pressure to low pressure and became endothermic so all that is really happening is thermal balance is being restored between the liquid and gas elements of the intake charge.

There are other endothermic actions happening on the intake charge by virtue of the intake design and the fundamental configuration of the ports and valves. Then the piston compresses everything as close to autoignition as possible (it has to, or the engine will be inefficient). When you add water or meth to this you just create more mass in the cylinder to absorb the heat generated when the mixture compresses, so the temperature rise is a little less.

And you are really confused about why a richer mixture makes power at WOT. It is purely because the extra mass in the cylinder absorbs more heat. When you lean out the mixture what happens? Autoignition and detonation. Why? Because the cylinder got too hot on the compression stroke and lit the fuel before the optimum time and the pressure peak occurred before 7 degree ATDC. Add a little fuel and we can make that problem go away. Add a little water or meth (or both) and we can make that problem go away. Water and meth are more effective because they absorb more heat per unit volume than gasoline. Ideally you'd run stoichiometric ratios at WOT, but no one's been able to do this well (except Smokey Yunick's famous adiabatic engine) because the engine will detonate and destroy itself. AMHIK.

For accurate information on water injection, look up a guy named Ricardo who did the seminal work on water injection in aircraft engines. His work was published in the 1940s and it's brilliant. The information in Wikipedia is deficient at best.

Quote:

Studies in the early part of the Second World War proved conclusively that as you add water you can lean out your overly rich mixtures as you raise your boost pressures. As Sir Harry Ricardo stated…”By the introduction of water…the fuel/air ratio could be reduced once again; in fact, with water injection, no appreciable advantage was found from the use of an over-rich fuel/air mixture”.

Ekorre

You wrote that huge long thing and you are still unsure of whether water and meth sprayed into the intake path can cool- ( or as you would prefer removes some heat) from the incoming air......

AND Im the confused one?

ok.

The temperatures were usually measured at the throttle body, or right prior to it.

The fact you are unsure of this simple matter really makes me doubt it's worth writing anything, this isn't a difficult concept, and it's widely accepted throughout the automotive community.

If you want to rewrite that wiki page with your own theories, about how water and meth injection may or may not actually cool the incoming air charge.....then by all means do so, and duke it out with the others who wrote that. Refute it, it's right there, don't try and make this a personal thing about how much I know, address the words I gave you, they're right there on the wall, change it if the info is incorrect, it corroborates w/ my own experiences, but I guess not your mental calculations and theories?


Your last post above shows me you're really splitting hairs here, and it's clear you're more intent on just proving that you are right over getting the info out and understandable for people here.

I sent you a link, you can look at the sources, you can do independent research, I've already told you my own experiences, and its based off of configuring many different maps for many different cars after I added a water meth injection system, from difficult ecu's like a Bosch Me7 to more user friendly Japanese standalones, later logging the cars with programs that can record the data and then reviewing the data.

Additionally, you can use the word 'cool' when describing the lowering of a temperature.... it means to lower the temp of,

if you want to overcomplicate it go ahead, yes there is no such thing as cold, that's completely irrelevant and basically trying to obfuscate the simple matter Im talking about, you knew what I meant by 'cool' and if you go out and deal with other engineers and people, they will use the term 'cool'. When talking about InterCOOLERS, Radiators, Transmission COOLERS, Oil COOLERS etc, they will always use the term COOL, COOL DOWN, no one in the last 15 years of dealing with many different custom cars HAS ever said, 'Will remove the heat from' when they are talking about lowering a temperature, whether air or liquid! lol....If that's not splitting hairs I dont know what is.

As far as A/F ratios go, I never said running rich gave you power, and I never mentioned anything about WOT?? And you're wrong, if you want to be nitpicky-since you have been, stoic is best anyways for pure power, no matter how hard to obtain.

Again, it's clear to me you just want to have the final say and be the knowledgeable one. That's fine, I have no problem w/ that, but Im just relating what real results I know, not theories, not fancy words.

I've used meth and water on 3 DIFFERENT CARS, I've reaped real results from it, I've changed 100's of maps on different ecu's to take advantage of the difference, and you're telling me to go educate myself, when you disagree with a simple fundamental aspect of the whole area? the sensors dont lie, and they weren't just getting wet as you stated was possible.

I will look up that guy though.

You write whatever you want chief, I'm not saying anything more here, I jsut wanted to help the guys understand how you can introduce the meth and water into the engine, you seem to care alot over whether or not it 'COOLS' the intake charge.

I also wrote the original post because I do not think it is safe to introduce the water in the way you mentioned, especially not in that volume, unless we are talking about dwarf people hoses here. even then, thats too big. Maybe the hose of the size a large squirrel would use if it were to have a garden it tended and such.

lastly, I dont think you dumping water on the carb of a carb'd engine, is a good basis to assume it will be fine on a fuel injected engine imho. I dont think the same amount of water would be safe. I wont say anything else here. you go ahead and say what you need., all I'm trying to say, and all I ever mentioned originally is that meth and water injected into the stream can cool down the incoming charge and has a few perks, and that your method on these modern engines is not safe imo. thats all.
If you have real world results with water and meth injection by all means share them, especially if they differ from my experience.

ISFer

iTrader: (2)

'Cool' info, Ekorre .. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us all.

Very interesting subject.

ISFer

BB/F

Holy going off on a tangent. About using water to get rid of carbon, Lobux is correct about this method of cleaning. The old school method was to use a setup similar to what an IV bag, only the container was glass. A hose was hung over the open carb and a water drip was introduced to the running engine. It's not so different than they way people use a vacume hose to introduce seafoam into a running FI engine.

BB/F

An engine is an engine. They all operate the same way using the same principals. Only difference is the way it receives fuel. Theres nothing about a fuel injected engine that would make it more susceptible to damage using this method of cleaning than an engine using a carb.

ming15237

iTrader: (3)

You two really are splitting hairs here, Lobo you are correct in that you can add water to a modern fuel injected engine and it will still run, it will reduce engine deposits in the area of the valves and on the top of the piston crown, this is due to the steam created when water boils, just like a steam carpet cleaner, (you two can call it whatever you want to call it, it is still steam). You, however are being a little (remember we can't ALWAYS be right) defensive and splitting hairs when you are referring to the cooling effect of meth/water injection, any time you add meth/water you ARE going to remove heat. This is the same principle that on a cool day the engine produces more power due to the density of the charge. Whether the air is cool before it enter the intake, or is "cooled" after it enters the intake track via water/meth it is still cooled. NO BEHAVE YOU TOO!