Reconsidering the Factory Alignment
08-25-11, 12:23 AM
#92
Problem 2 - the initial settings on the 2WD compared to the final settings look very suspicious. "Working on the geometry" could mean a lot of things, but to fix camber is next to impossible. There isn't any appreciable slack in the bushings to exploit. The only thing we've seen is moving the front subframe, and this only corrects camber imbalance from side to side (it does also affect caster, but doesn't usually "fix" it without the caster correction bushings Lexus sells.) Your tech may have done a combination of things, but I'd still bet you'll have inside edge wear issues with as much toe out as you have. It won't be obvious until you've put at least 24k km on them.
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/2629/align2.jpg
http://imageshack.us/f/842/img0741n.jpg/ - Front Right
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7759/img0740v.jpg - Rear Right
Notice the dark band which is the boundary where it is not wearing? Observing, the dark band on the right is further to the right (for outer wear), than in comparision to where the dark band is on the left is not as far left of the tire (inner wear). I do not have inner wear issues and also confirmed during inspection of the tires by touching and feeling the tire tread itself.
Last edited by Sango; 08-25-11 at 12:41 AM.
08-25-11, 10:00 AM
#93
Tech Info Resource
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Appearance, touch, and feel mean nothing at this small mileage. You won't be able to see anything, feel anything, or touch anything with significance. Measure with a treadwear depth tool if you want to know what is really happening. This is why my pictures include the penny as a reference over time. At about 15k miles it will be pretty clear what's happening using sight, but at 10% of that, you have no choice but to measure and compare to a virgin tire.
08-25-11, 01:39 PM
#94
I'm sure I'm already seeing the pattern because the rubber is looking rough in those areas where I see indications of wear, so I'm a bit curious why you mention I would see nothing. I do recall that you had your tires checked at around 2K back near the beginning to the thread with the penny test.
With the tech's experience, he is able to feel it. He probably has a tread depth meter but does not use it for the same reason. When I sent a picture to him of the tire wear, he told me to actually come in - then he explained that the pictures do not tell everything. I will see how the tire is when it gets inspected at 5K as per tech's recommendation.
I do realize I had the inspection done early but it was because during an oil change at Lexus, they lowered the pressure down and did not realize it until I looked at the paper work - then I brought the car to the alignment tech (which was when I sent the picture) to put the pressure back up to what he had before and inspected the tires during this.
With the tech's experience, he is able to feel it. He probably has a tread depth meter but does not use it for the same reason. When I sent a picture to him of the tire wear, he told me to actually come in - then he explained that the pictures do not tell everything. I will see how the tire is when it gets inspected at 5K as per tech's recommendation.
I do realize I had the inspection done early but it was because during an oil change at Lexus, they lowered the pressure down and did not realize it until I looked at the paper work - then I brought the car to the alignment tech (which was when I sent the picture) to put the pressure back up to what he had before and inspected the tires during this.
Last edited by Sango; 08-25-11 at 06:30 PM.
10-14-11, 02:18 AM
#95
Got my new 11 250 F-Sport done.
No need for 0 toe... it is miss information about alignment from what I had been told by my tech as I asked yesterday morning about this "0" toe which is being mentioned around here and on the net. Camber and toe are related and work together in conjunction, therefore both need to be adjusted accordingly to properly offset each other. If not set correctly, it will affect the tire wear. My report shows this relation.
No need for 0 toe... it is miss information about alignment from what I had been told by my tech as I asked yesterday morning about this "0" toe which is being mentioned around here and on the net. Camber and toe are related and work together in conjunction, therefore both need to be adjusted accordingly to properly offset each other. If not set correctly, it will affect the tire wear. My report shows this relation.
Last edited by Sango; 10-14-11 at 02:56 AM.
10-14-11, 08:42 AM
#97
Tech Info Resource
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
Got my new 11 250 F-Sport done.
No need for 0 toe... it is miss information about alignment from what I had been told by my tech as I asked yesterday morning about this "0" toe which is being mentioned around here and on the net. Camber and toe are related and work together in conjunction, therefore both need to be adjusted accordingly to properly offset each other. If not set correctly, it will affect the tire wear. My report shows this relation.]
No need for 0 toe... it is miss information about alignment from what I had been told by my tech as I asked yesterday morning about this "0" toe which is being mentioned around here and on the net. Camber and toe are related and work together in conjunction, therefore both need to be adjusted accordingly to properly offset each other. If not set correctly, it will affect the tire wear. My report shows this relation.]
I'd also like to know what "your tech" did to sort out your camber issue? There is NO adjustment from the factory beside the slop in the bolt holes. Did he move the subframe much?
10-14-11, 11:25 AM
#98
That's comedy. I have a whole thread documenting this, and you say "it's misinformation." So, I'm photoshopping the pictures, the alignment and the settings? I've only been doing this stuff for about 20 years or so, but I think your tech is an idiot for saying what he said.
I'd also like to know what "your tech" did to sort out your camber issue? There is NO adjustment from the factory beside the slop in the bolt holes. Did he move the subframe much?
I'd also like to know what "your tech" did to sort out your camber issue? There is NO adjustment from the factory beside the slop in the bolt holes. Did he move the subframe much?
If customers are willing to bring their exotic cars, such as Lambo, Ferrari which I have seen in his shop, he must be good. I've seen customers who have specific requirements and he can dial them in with precision. You can also find them as part of the recommend tire installers at tirerack with a lot of reviews.
Last edited by Sango; 10-14-11 at 11:35 AM.
10-14-11, 11:35 AM
#99
Tech Info Resource
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
I know exactly what he did just from looking at the alignment sheet - alignment isn't rocket science. Suspension design is a lot closer though. Hiding behind "trade secrets" is even worse. It's great, folks with money trust him with their cars. There are people in Atlanta with the same credentials, but at least they're willing to discuss the whole solution with you - and yes, they've got all the pics from all the racers thanking them for getting their cars dialed in and making them faster too. Strange how none of them are disagreeing with what I've posted here.
10-14-11, 11:48 AM
#100
I assume you mean the AES credentials, yes he has a wide variety of ranges.
The tech does explain the situation in a way which the customer understands without disclosing the "trade" part of it. To me anyways, he explains it in a more technical aspect since I'm a computer programmer and I am interested in the tech stuff.
Well yes, he does have some racing pics, and binder of reviews (which he appends, from new tire rack reviews, personal emails) from customers who have had service at his shop which the majority of them, your typical daily drivers, followed by the luxury, racing etc...
The tech does explain the situation in a way which the customer understands without disclosing the "trade" part of it. To me anyways, he explains it in a more technical aspect since I'm a computer programmer and I am interested in the tech stuff.
Well yes, he does have some racing pics, and binder of reviews (which he appends, from new tire rack reviews, personal emails) from customers who have had service at his shop which the majority of them, your typical daily drivers, followed by the luxury, racing etc...
10-14-11, 12:07 PM
#101
Lexus Test Driver
I assume you mean the AES credentials, yes he has a wide variety of ranges.
The tech does explain the situation in a way which the customer understands without disclosing the "trade" part of it. To me anyways, he explains it in a more technical aspect since I'm a computer programmer and I am interested in the tech stuff.
Well yes, he does have some racing pics, and binder of reviews (which he appends, from new tire rack reviews, personal emails) from customers who have had service at his shop which the majority of them, your typical daily drivers, followed by the luxury, racing etc...
The tech does explain the situation in a way which the customer understands without disclosing the "trade" part of it. To me anyways, he explains it in a more technical aspect since I'm a computer programmer and I am interested in the tech stuff.
Well yes, he does have some racing pics, and binder of reviews (which he appends, from new tire rack reviews, personal emails) from customers who have had service at his shop which the majority of them, your typical daily drivers, followed by the luxury, racing etc...
I would like to request that the Admin delete Sango's posts.
10-14-11, 12:08 PM
#102
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^I second the above
Sango, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you are going to espouse the virtues of your particular "tech" then be considerate of your audience. Lobuxracer has not claimed that this is the be-all-end-all of the alignment solutions available to ISF owners. He has done an extremely thorough job documenting and analyzing his particular situation and solutions which he has tried.
You clearly have a very loose grasp on the technicalities of vehicle alignment, yet you come in here spouting off second hand general knowledge and treating alignment as it is some black art or secret trade craft. I have no doubt that your "tech" has a very in depth knowledge of how to align vehicles for a variety of situations. But, you coming in here trying to pass this knowledge off as gospel is ridiculous and the equivalent of playing the telephone game. If anything, you are only discrediting this "tech" you so dearly revere.
Sango, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you are going to espouse the virtues of your particular "tech" then be considerate of your audience. Lobuxracer has not claimed that this is the be-all-end-all of the alignment solutions available to ISF owners. He has done an extremely thorough job documenting and analyzing his particular situation and solutions which he has tried.
You clearly have a very loose grasp on the technicalities of vehicle alignment, yet you come in here spouting off second hand general knowledge and treating alignment as it is some black art or secret trade craft. I have no doubt that your "tech" has a very in depth knowledge of how to align vehicles for a variety of situations. But, you coming in here trying to pass this knowledge off as gospel is ridiculous and the equivalent of playing the telephone game. If anything, you are only discrediting this "tech" you so dearly revere.
10-14-11, 12:12 PM
#103
I am so disappointed to see this EXTREMELY useful thread painstaking discribing Lobux's success with alignment by experiment TRASHED by worthless posts by an ignorant poster that has no mechanical understanding of car suspension and isnt even referencing an ISF!
I would like to request that the Admin delete Sango's posts.
I would like to request that the Admin delete Sango's posts.
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lobuxracer, as mention it isn't rocket scientists looking at the sheet. That being said, could you employ something similar to your car to test such that can have toe and camber with good wear?
