Reconsidering the Factory Alignment
10-14-11, 12:17 PM
#106
^I
You clearly have a very loose grasp on the technicalities of vehicle alignment, yet you come in here spouting off second hand general knowledge and treating alignment as it is some black art or secret trade craft. I have no doubt that your "tech" has a very in depth knowledge of how to align vehicles for a variety of situations. But, you coming in here trying to pass this knowledge off as gospel is ridiculous and the equivalent of playing the telephone game. If anything, you are only discrediting this "tech" you so dearly revere.
You clearly have a very loose grasp on the technicalities of vehicle alignment, yet you come in here spouting off second hand general knowledge and treating alignment as it is some black art or secret trade craft. I have no doubt that your "tech" has a very in depth knowledge of how to align vehicles for a variety of situations. But, you coming in here trying to pass this knowledge off as gospel is ridiculous and the equivalent of playing the telephone game. If anything, you are only discrediting this "tech" you so dearly revere.
Telephone game? Really, well lets put it this way, the questions I've asked to him in email - he asked me to call him to get futher clarification of exactly what I was trying say.
I'm not discrediting him because he does not reveal anything to me either, we're both fine.
10-14-11, 12:27 PM
#107
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You are discrediting him by NOT revealing anything and indicating that this is his mindset towards dealing with customers.
10-14-11, 12:41 PM
#108
Lexus Test Driver
You just don't know when to quit do you.
When I own an IS 250 with the F-Sport package (shocks, springs, bars only I believe) I will give your "general use" specifications some consideration.
You do realize the ISF has a different weight distribution, is heavier, that has a heavier motor, different suspension geometry, camber specs, 19 wheels, different offsets, different spring rates, shock valving and at least 12 different part numbers for the suspension from all the other IS's.
If you must continue sharing your enlightening comments, at least take it to a relevant forum, IS 250.
When I own an IS 250 with the F-Sport package (shocks, springs, bars only I believe) I will give your "general use" specifications some consideration.
You do realize the ISF has a different weight distribution, is heavier, that has a heavier motor, different suspension geometry, camber specs, 19 wheels, different offsets, different spring rates, shock valving and at least 12 different part numbers for the suspension from all the other IS's.
If you must continue sharing your enlightening comments, at least take it to a relevant forum, IS 250.
And what of you? I don't need to reference ISF's since the tech has done IS-F - No complaints.
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lobuxracer, as mention it isn't rocket scientists looking at the sheet. That being said, could you employ something similar to your car to test such that can have toe and camber with good wear?
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lobuxracer, as mention it isn't rocket scientists looking at the sheet. That being said, could you employ something similar to your car to test such that can have toe and camber with good wear?
Last edited by UCrazyKid; 10-14-11 at 03:50 PM.
10-14-11, 12:43 PM
#109
Exactly, so just read the thread and learn something. Congratulations on being able to get a job with such a limited grasp of the English language.
If you wrote the Emails like you write your posts here I can understand why.
You are discrediting him by NOT revealing anything and indicating that this is his mindset towards dealing with customers.
If you wrote the Emails like you write your posts here I can understand why.
You are discrediting him by NOT revealing anything and indicating that this is his mindset towards dealing with customers.
Actually not true, because how about if that customer is actually a competitor? Have you thought about that? Same for us, we are very strict on what we can talk talk about to our customers unless under agreement (there is a lot more to it, but cannot disclose).
10-14-11, 12:50 PM
#110
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So you're saying that you can turn your English skills on or off at will, and choose to sound ignorant (and sometimes incoherent) on a public forum? Genius.
Secondly, as was stated previously, automotive alignment is not in line with national security. If he is working at a business which regularly does alignments for anyone willing to pay, there is no secret to it. He just thinks his customers are too stupid to understand, or uses the "i can do magic" idea to draw stupid customers in.
Secondly, as was stated previously, automotive alignment is not in line with national security. If he is working at a business which regularly does alignments for anyone willing to pay, there is no secret to it. He just thinks his customers are too stupid to understand, or uses the "i can do magic" idea to draw stupid customers in.
10-14-11, 12:52 PM
#111
Tech Info Resource
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
The point of a forum is to openly discuss issues, concerns, techniques, solutions, frustrations, and elation. Calling it proprietary just means it's not in the spirit of a forum, it's a trade secret. So you are saying your tech is closed source about methods and procedures. That's fine and well. Bringing this to an open source community isn't going to win friends or positively influence people.
The point of this thread is to document photographically and contextually what is happening with our cars, specifically the IS-F which is different than all other 2IS, so that other owners can see what did and did not work. Nothing proprietary, nothing hidden from view, open and honest communication. If it isn't possible to do this, then it's time to stop posting anything of value and hide it in my toolbox.
The point of this thread is to document photographically and contextually what is happening with our cars, specifically the IS-F which is different than all other 2IS, so that other owners can see what did and did not work. Nothing proprietary, nothing hidden from view, open and honest communication. If it isn't possible to do this, then it's time to stop posting anything of value and hide it in my toolbox.
10-14-11, 01:03 PM
#113
You just don't know when to quit do you.
When own an IS 250 with the F-Sport package (shocks, springs, bars only I believe) I will give your "general use" specifications some consideration.
You do realize the ISF has a different weight distribution, is heavier, that has a heavier motor, different suspension geometry, camber specs, 19 wheels, different offsets, different spring rates, shock valving and at least 12 different part numbers for the suspension from all the other IS's.
If you must continue sharing your enlightening comments, at least take it to a relevant forum, IS 250.
When own an IS 250 with the F-Sport package (shocks, springs, bars only I believe) I will give your "general use" specifications some consideration.
You do realize the ISF has a different weight distribution, is heavier, that has a heavier motor, different suspension geometry, camber specs, 19 wheels, different offsets, different spring rates, shock valving and at least 12 different part numbers for the suspension from all the other IS's.
If you must continue sharing your enlightening comments, at least take it to a relevant forum, IS 250.
All I am really trying to say, is if there is another way to do the alignment without resorting to using 0 toe. I believe lobuxracer, could experiment it in this manner. The 0 toe is also trying to be recommended on the relevant ISX50 forums as well. There must be another way. I'm just curious and am interested.
So you're saying that you can turn your English skills on or off at will, and choose to sound ignorant (and sometimes incoherent) on a public forum? Genius.
Secondly, as was stated previously, automotive alignment is not in line with national security. If he is working at a business which regularly does alignments for anyone willing to pay, there is no secret to it. He just thinks his customers are too stupid to understand, or uses the "i can do magic" idea to draw stupid customers in.
Secondly, as was stated previously, automotive alignment is not in line with national security. If he is working at a business which regularly does alignments for anyone willing to pay, there is no secret to it. He just thinks his customers are too stupid to understand, or uses the "i can do magic" idea to draw stupid customers in.
There is no secret to your typical alignment, but it's the extra stuff that he does that he will not disclose. Yes people are willing to pay for it since they were happy with their results from comming from other competitors which did botched alignment jobs (and yes I had a botched job from the dealer).
Last edited by Sango; 10-14-11 at 01:08 PM.
10-14-11, 01:13 PM
#114
The point of a forum is to openly discuss issues, concerns, techniques, solutions, frustrations, and elation. Calling it proprietary just means it's not in the spirit of a forum, it's a trade secret. So you are saying your tech is closed source about methods and procedures. That's fine and well. Bringing this to an open source community isn't going to win friends or positively influence people.
The point of this thread is to document photographically and contextually what is happening with our cars, specifically the IS-F which is different than all other 2IS, so that other owners can see what did and did not work. Nothing proprietary, nothing hidden from view, open and honest communication. If it isn't possible to do this, then it's time to stop posting anything of value and hide it in my toolbox.
The point of this thread is to document photographically and contextually what is happening with our cars, specifically the IS-F which is different than all other 2IS, so that other owners can see what did and did not work. Nothing proprietary, nothing hidden from view, open and honest communication. If it isn't possible to do this, then it's time to stop posting anything of value and hide it in my toolbox.
Sango is a lost cause.. Just ignore him lol. He was on this thread trying to give his same opinion https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...d-tires-2.html
10-14-11, 01:30 PM
#115
Tech Info Resource
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
He moved the front subframe to balance the camber problem clearly evident in the before settings, then set the toe to factory spec. Same solution anyone who got this properly fixed used.
10-14-11, 02:06 PM
#116
Thanks lobuxracer. This also implies the the answer to the question, when he mentioned "geometry", which is apparently the sub frame.
Just curious, have you tried moving the sub frame yourself in your experiments?
Just curious, have you tried moving the sub frame yourself in your experiments?
Last edited by Sango; 10-14-11 at 08:25 PM.
10-14-11, 03:13 PM
#117
Tech Info Resource
Thread Starter
iTrader: (2)
My car came from the factory with balanced front end camber, so I've had no need to do this. There have been at least three F owners with severe enough problems to have the front subframe moved to get the camber right.
Once you move the subframe, everything else needs to be adjusted - toe will be off, center steer will be off, caster might have issues as well depending on if/how the subframe rotated when it moved from one side to the other. This is one of the reasons putting headers on the F might have unintended consequences - you have to drop the front subframe to get the headers on the engine.
I dropped the front subframe on my Supra to remove the upper oil pan and reseal it because it was ever so slightly dripping oil from what appeared to be the rear main seal, but was in fact the upper oil pan to block joint. When I put the car back together, the first place I went was to the alignment shop because I knew there was no way the original alignment was good. One of the key measures when you do this is the right to left wheelbase. They should be as much the same as possible. It was 2mm different from one side to the other and my tech (much like yours, well respected and been doing this longer than I've been around) said, "Good job! You wouldn't believe how many people drop a subframe and have their wheelbase off by more than a quarter inch."
Also looking at your alignment, I'm pretty certain your tech had to loosen a few things, push them in one direction or another, then retighten them to get the numbers to work out right. The car probably drives very nicely. I'll just be surprised if it doesn't wear the inside edges on the front excessively. It's been a common issue with all 2IS since they first arrived in the US.
Once you move the subframe, everything else needs to be adjusted - toe will be off, center steer will be off, caster might have issues as well depending on if/how the subframe rotated when it moved from one side to the other. This is one of the reasons putting headers on the F might have unintended consequences - you have to drop the front subframe to get the headers on the engine.
I dropped the front subframe on my Supra to remove the upper oil pan and reseal it because it was ever so slightly dripping oil from what appeared to be the rear main seal, but was in fact the upper oil pan to block joint. When I put the car back together, the first place I went was to the alignment shop because I knew there was no way the original alignment was good. One of the key measures when you do this is the right to left wheelbase. They should be as much the same as possible. It was 2mm different from one side to the other and my tech (much like yours, well respected and been doing this longer than I've been around) said, "Good job! You wouldn't believe how many people drop a subframe and have their wheelbase off by more than a quarter inch."
Also looking at your alignment, I'm pretty certain your tech had to loosen a few things, push them in one direction or another, then retighten them to get the numbers to work out right. The car probably drives very nicely. I'll just be surprised if it doesn't wear the inside edges on the front excessively. It's been a common issue with all 2IS since they first arrived in the US.
10-14-11, 03:57 PM
#118
Lexus Test Driver
I am one of the members Lobuxracer is referring to regarding having the subframe shifted to achieve even camber in the front. If this is the "magic" or "trade secrete" your mechanic is alluding too, then he is a fool for hiding it and claiming it is some secrete skill only he posses. Sounds like his marketing "game".
Last edited by UCrazyKid; 10-14-11 at 04:01 PM.
10-14-11, 06:26 PM
#119
My co-worker said the same thing about the tech I see about the "trade" part. For him, he knows significantly more about cars than me - drives an M3 and uses it mainly on the track (racing license). Had him look at it, and said yeah, looks like the sub frame and could be some other things (since he's not familiar with Lexus vehicles but try to improvise theorically what it might have). He did say for his car, he does have 1/32th or 1/64 camber increment setting adjustments (iirc) which I was surprised. Gets his alignment dialed in the way he wants it from the tech he goes to as well. Occasionally advises me to get the F... loll!
I do not think moving the subframe is a secret either, but probably on how he does it and what other adjustments he does in the process probably is to him.
I do not think moving the subframe is a secret either, but probably on how he does it and what other adjustments he does in the process probably is to him.
Last edited by Sango; 10-14-11 at 07:56 PM.
11-28-11, 07:49 PM
#120
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8530/img0675l.jpg - Rear tires (which were at the front initially before first rotation at about 12K, this about 2K after)
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4407/img0678t.jpg - Front tires (which were at the back initally before first rotation at about 12K, this is about 2K after)
I barely have any sign of inside wear from the pics - it does show signs on the outside (cupping), but was confirmed as normal wear from city driving and steering.
As for the RWD car which appears werid, the tech did say he worked on the geometry of the car.
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4407/img0678t.jpg - Front tires (which were at the back initally before first rotation at about 12K, this is about 2K after)
I barely have any sign of inside wear from the pics - it does show signs on the outside (cupping), but was confirmed as normal wear from city driving and steering.
As for the RWD car which appears werid, the tech did say he worked on the geometry of the car.
Sango, your tires are showing outside edge wear, and this is after 14k miles?
I wouldn't just accept this as "normal wear from city driving and steering". Eventually it will wear down to the cords on the outside edge and you will have to replace it prematurely, despite having plenty of tread in the center and inside. And my past car saw plenty of city driving and steering yet the tires always wore down evenly, edge to edge.
On my IS 250, the original Bridgestone ER33 on the fronts wore on both the outsides and insides. I replaced them at 32,500 miles which was still well before I got down to the cords because they would hydroplane badly which is something I cannot have driving through the frequent thunderstorms in Florida.
The alignment I had done when I replaced the tires showed that before I had 0.34 degrees total toe in. I believe this is 4.25mm toe in and the spec is -1mm toe out to 3mm toe in, so I had too much toe in. I think this toe in caused the outside edge wear. Sango, from the alignment sheet for your AWD, you have 3.4mm toe in. Perhaps the spec is different for AWD but don't you think the toe in is causing the outside edge wear on your tires?
This may be unrelated but before when turning at full lock, I had a funny feeling like the tires were grinding or slipping on the edges. After the alignment and new tires in which the front toe was set to zero (caster, camber, SAI all practically the same), this feeling has now gone. Was this a consequence of having too much toe in?
My alignment sheet:
Camber
LF Actual: -0.4, Before: -0.4, Specified Range: -1.1 to 0.4deg
RF Actual: 0.0, Before: -0.1
LR Actual: -0.7, Before: -0.7, Specified Range: -1.9 to -0.4deg
RR Actual: -0.7, Before: -0.7
Toe
LF Actual: -0.01, Before: 0.20, Specified Range: -0.04 to 0.12deg
RF Actual: 0.02, Before: 0.14
LR Actual: 0.08, Before: -0.03, Specified Range: 0.04 to 0.20deg
RR Actual: 0.09, Before: 0.05
Caster
LF Actual: 7.2, Before: 7.2, Specified Range: 7.3 to 8.8deg
RF Actual: 7.1, Before: 7.1
SAI
LF Actual: 11.3, Before: 11.3, Specified Range: 9.9 to 11.4deg
RF Actual: 10.4, Before: 10.5
Included Angle
LF Actual: 10.9, Before: 10.9, Specified Range: 8.8 to 11.8deg
RF Actual: 10.4, Before: 10.4
Thrust Angle
Actual: 0.00deg, Before -0.04deg