We are in the process of evaluating some new stuff for Project IS-F
05-22-12, 06:34 AM
#17
Since intakes are very sensitive to air flow and temperature, and given that we all drive with the hood down, why do you dyno an intake with the hood up and with a huge fan blowing right in the intake direction? I know that's the standard procedure for a dyno sessions but that will give an HP improvement that won't be seen in real life. The problem with K&N intakes on the ISF (and reported on this forum) is caused by heat soak, something that you won't see during your dyno session.
05-22-12, 02:18 PM
#18
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The above point... AND I again don't understand the purpose of having the car in 3rd gear aside from directly comparing to K&N results which are obviously inflated.
You have EXCELLENT reviews though, now I need to supercharge my Tundra based off your website.
You have EXCELLENT reviews though, now I need to supercharge my Tundra based off your website.
05-23-12, 06:16 PM
#19
I do it with the hood up so I can control the intake air temp so all runs can be started with the same coolant and intake air temp. If you don't do this you can have variation of probably up to 40 hp with this particular car. Ever wonder why so many CL people have a lot of variation in their dyno runs and why peoples dyno results are so different for this car? My dyno results are professional results done by someone who has tons of experience with dynoing late model cars. Ask Joe Z he has witnessed how I test these cars.
I tested in third gear to see if I could duplicate K&N's results which have often been disputed. I also tested in 6th gear and got similar results as well.
I tested in third gear to see if I could duplicate K&N's results which have often been disputed. I also tested in 6th gear and got similar results as well.
05-23-12, 09:15 PM
#20
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Your website is awesome, your reviews are thorough, I truly respect that. Though, not to put words in Joe Z's mouth but he seems to admit himself that testing the car this way by cooling it off isn't entirely accurate to real world numbers when driving. For comparison sake I can see why it makes sense, as to limit as many parameters as possible.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/7250062-post24.html
So is it the coolant, or is it the IAT that make the numbers so variable? Is it the lack of CFM of airflow flowing over the radiator that doesn't proportionately correlate to real world driving?
I think more people would be excited about the project your undertaking if it was modifications that haven't already been done. Headers and suspension is norm on this board... How about going a bit bigger and onto things that many ISF owners haven't touched like more engine mods...?
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/7250062-post24.html
So is it the coolant, or is it the IAT that make the numbers so variable? Is it the lack of CFM of airflow flowing over the radiator that doesn't proportionately correlate to real world driving?
I think more people would be excited about the project your undertaking if it was modifications that haven't already been done. Headers and suspension is norm on this board... How about going a bit bigger and onto things that many ISF owners haven't touched like more engine mods...?
05-23-12, 11:45 PM
#21
Actually Joe sent me this thread in a separate message expressing his frustration to me about how people don't get it when it comes to dyno testing.
You might want to PM him and ask him about how he thinks of how I do it or maybe he will just chip in here if he see's this. I don't let the engine cool down, I keep it running and in gear spinning the rollers and allow the temps to normalize after a pull. I also put the dyno air temp sensor near where the engine draws air.
If you dyno with the hood down and if the engine fans kick on, you can often see a power variability of up to 15 hp. I use a small fan to keep this sort of heat bloom from affecting the IAT.
Engine repeatability seems to be most tied to intake air temp and coolant temp but I also try to keep the transmission and diff temp stable as that can make as much as 5-6 hp variability from dead cold to fully warm. I also look at long and short term fuel trims.
If you do all of this the power will settle down and the runs will lay on top of each other. When looking at Dyno tests it is important to look at the before and after differences rather than the peak numbers.
Late model Toyota products are one of the hardest cars to get consistent power readings from. Nissans unless they are 2003-2004 models for instance settle down in 3-4 pulls. Because of this I would take a lot of people's dyno results on the forum with a grain of salt. Their are a few people on here who know how to dyno these cars but I think at least half of the dyno results I look at could be quite a bit off. I guarantee you that a guy who does your typical three pull strap down can be off by 30 or more hp with an IS-F. I usually need at least twice that before the car reads right.
I am also a degreed engineer that has worked his whole life in the OEM automotive and motorsports industry so I have a lot of legit experience with this sort of stuff. I did all of the power validation testing for Nismo parts around 2004-2007 for instance.
You might want to PM him and ask him about how he thinks of how I do it or maybe he will just chip in here if he see's this. I don't let the engine cool down, I keep it running and in gear spinning the rollers and allow the temps to normalize after a pull. I also put the dyno air temp sensor near where the engine draws air.
If you dyno with the hood down and if the engine fans kick on, you can often see a power variability of up to 15 hp. I use a small fan to keep this sort of heat bloom from affecting the IAT.
Engine repeatability seems to be most tied to intake air temp and coolant temp but I also try to keep the transmission and diff temp stable as that can make as much as 5-6 hp variability from dead cold to fully warm. I also look at long and short term fuel trims.
If you do all of this the power will settle down and the runs will lay on top of each other. When looking at Dyno tests it is important to look at the before and after differences rather than the peak numbers.
Late model Toyota products are one of the hardest cars to get consistent power readings from. Nissans unless they are 2003-2004 models for instance settle down in 3-4 pulls. Because of this I would take a lot of people's dyno results on the forum with a grain of salt. Their are a few people on here who know how to dyno these cars but I think at least half of the dyno results I look at could be quite a bit off. I guarantee you that a guy who does your typical three pull strap down can be off by 30 or more hp with an IS-F. I usually need at least twice that before the car reads right.
I am also a degreed engineer that has worked his whole life in the OEM automotive and motorsports industry so I have a lot of legit experience with this sort of stuff. I did all of the power validation testing for Nismo parts around 2004-2007 for instance.
Last edited by smartbomb; 05-23-12 at 11:49 PM.
05-23-12, 11:50 PM
#22
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05-23-12, 11:53 PM
#23
I don't want to do wild modifications to the car. It is my wife's car and she is already mad at me for" messing it up". So don't expect lots of compression, big cams, turbo or superchargers unless I can live at your house.
It is also a pretty refined, well engineered and expensive car. Not to many hard core parts exist for it and I don't feel like engineering stuff that my wife will hate.
What you do get is careful evaluation of stuff a lot of people do I guess.
It is also a pretty refined, well engineered and expensive car. Not to many hard core parts exist for it and I don't feel like engineering stuff that my wife will hate.
What you do get is careful evaluation of stuff a lot of people do I guess.
05-24-12, 05:44 PM
#24
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Your website is awesome, your reviews are thorough, I truly respect that. Though, not to put words in Joe Z's mouth but he seems to admit himself that testing the car this way by cooling it off isn't entirely accurate to real world numbers when driving. For comparison sake I can see why it makes sense, as to limit as many parameters as possible.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/7250062-post24.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/7250062-post24.html
By "Cooling Down Engine" before Dyno runs... I mean literally turning OFF the car / motor for 5, 10, 15, 20 mins at a time between pulls....
This practice is known in the industry.. It allows the motor to operate in cooler conditions, which also causes a SPIKE in higher dyno numbers between each run...
These spiked numbers are just not realistic..!!
I have seen how "smartbomb" aka Mike K. controls his dyno environment and honestly I was & still am very impressed on all the results he delivers..
They are just about as "real world" as they can get...
Most importantly Mike has nothing to gain or lose by delivering everyone honest results..
He does gain a ton of respect from me since I have only been involved in Dynoing the Lexus IS line since 2002..
He has been doing this a whole lot longer than me…
Regards,
Joe Z
Actually Joe sent me this thread in a separate message expressing his frustration to me about how people don't get it when it comes to dyno testing.
You might want to PM him and ask him about how he thinks of how I do it or maybe he will just chip in here if he see's this. I don't let the engine cool down, I keep it running and in gear spinning the rollers and allow the temps to normalize after a pull. I also put the dyno air temp sensor near where the engine draws air.
If you dyno with the hood down and if the engine fans kick on, you can often see a power variability of up to 15 hp. I use a small fan to keep this sort of heat bloom from affecting the IAT.
Engine repeatability seems to be most tied to intake air temp and coolant temp but I also try to keep the transmission and diff temp stable as that can make as much as 5-6 hp variability from dead cold to fully warm. I also look at long and short term fuel trims.
If you do all of this the power will settle down and the runs will lay on top of each other. When looking at Dyno tests it is important to look at the before and after differences rather than the peak numbers.
Late model Toyota products are one of the hardest cars to get consistent power readings from. Nissans unless they are 2003-2004 models for instance settle down in 3-4 pulls. Because of this I would take a lot of people's dyno results on the forum with a grain of salt. Their are a few people on here who know how to dyno these cars but I think at least half of the dyno results I look at could be quite a bit off. I guarantee you that a guy who does your typical three pull strap down can be off by 30 or more hp with an IS-F. I usually need at least twice that before the car reads right.
I am also a degreed engineer that has worked his whole life in the OEM automotive and motorsports industry so I have a lot of legit experience with this sort of stuff. I did all of the power validation testing for Nismo parts around 2004-2007 for instance.
You might want to PM him and ask him about how he thinks of how I do it or maybe he will just chip in here if he see's this. I don't let the engine cool down, I keep it running and in gear spinning the rollers and allow the temps to normalize after a pull. I also put the dyno air temp sensor near where the engine draws air.
If you dyno with the hood down and if the engine fans kick on, you can often see a power variability of up to 15 hp. I use a small fan to keep this sort of heat bloom from affecting the IAT.
Engine repeatability seems to be most tied to intake air temp and coolant temp but I also try to keep the transmission and diff temp stable as that can make as much as 5-6 hp variability from dead cold to fully warm. I also look at long and short term fuel trims.
If you do all of this the power will settle down and the runs will lay on top of each other. When looking at Dyno tests it is important to look at the before and after differences rather than the peak numbers.
Late model Toyota products are one of the hardest cars to get consistent power readings from. Nissans unless they are 2003-2004 models for instance settle down in 3-4 pulls. Because of this I would take a lot of people's dyno results on the forum with a grain of salt. Their are a few people on here who know how to dyno these cars but I think at least half of the dyno results I look at could be quite a bit off. I guarantee you that a guy who does your typical three pull strap down can be off by 30 or more hp with an IS-F. I usually need at least twice that before the car reads right.
I am also a degreed engineer that has worked his whole life in the OEM automotive and motorsports industry so I have a lot of legit experience with this sort of stuff. I did all of the power validation testing for Nismo parts around 2004-2007 for instance.
^^ Mike, you are spot on with this post..!!!
I have truely learned a lot more since meeting you back in Feb. 11"
Looking forward to the next phase of your Project IS-F.. LMK when it happens and if you want be to be there..
Also, lets get Proejct GS wrapped up real soon ...
Thank You
Joe Z
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