Interested in ECU tune for the ISF ?
03-14-13 | 03:48 PM
#76
First, no one is going to crack the ECM. There are people in Japan who believe they have access to tune US models with the tools available through SARD. We are still unsure this is real as the encryption keys may have no relationship to the keys used for JDM ECMs.
Yes, the encryption is the problem. tgui, if you can write algorithms for cam timing control from scratch by reverse engineering, I seriously think you are not in the right business and you're making far less money than you could writing ECM software for the OEMs. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to see that code going over the wire. Ever. Toyota does some very special stuff in their ECM design and part of it includes writing to protected ROM so the code can never be changed. There are accessible portions of the maps, and there are inaccessible portions of the maps. It's just another one of the reasons why no one has cracked Toyota's ECMs, and I've been following this since I bought a Supra in 1994. I've had LOTS of discussions with people in the industry who are also developers (and h4x0rz) and we've all come to the conclusion it can't be done with Toyota's hardware, unless you are granted access.
SARD has obviously made a business case for this. Not sure yet how Toyota will respond if they start tuning US cars, so let's all hope for the best:
1. SARD's tools will work on USDM ECMs.
2. Toyota/Scion/Lexus do not take umbrage and cut SARD off from access to the tools once they start doing this.
Given Toyota's legal department and how ridiculously restrictive they are in the US, it would not surprise me at all if there are more issues to overcome or face as this moves forward. Again, let's all hope for the best. No one would like to see this option come to fruition more than I would.
Yes, the encryption is the problem. tgui, if you can write algorithms for cam timing control from scratch by reverse engineering, I seriously think you are not in the right business and you're making far less money than you could writing ECM software for the OEMs. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to see that code going over the wire. Ever. Toyota does some very special stuff in their ECM design and part of it includes writing to protected ROM so the code can never be changed. There are accessible portions of the maps, and there are inaccessible portions of the maps. It's just another one of the reasons why no one has cracked Toyota's ECMs, and I've been following this since I bought a Supra in 1994. I've had LOTS of discussions with people in the industry who are also developers (and h4x0rz) and we've all come to the conclusion it can't be done with Toyota's hardware, unless you are granted access.
SARD has obviously made a business case for this. Not sure yet how Toyota will respond if they start tuning US cars, so let's all hope for the best:
1. SARD's tools will work on USDM ECMs.
2. Toyota/Scion/Lexus do not take umbrage and cut SARD off from access to the tools once they start doing this.
Given Toyota's legal department and how ridiculously restrictive they are in the US, it would not surprise me at all if there are more issues to overcome or face as this moves forward. Again, let's all hope for the best. No one would like to see this option come to fruition more than I would.
03-15-13 | 07:55 AM
#77
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: NOVA
First, no one is going to crack the ECM. There are people in Japan who believe they have access to tune US models with the tools available through SARD. We are still unsure this is real as the encryption keys may have no relationship to the keys used for JDM ECMs.
Yes, the encryption is the problem. tgui, if you can write algorithms for cam timing control from scratch by reverse engineering, I seriously think you are not in the right business and you're making far less money than you could writing ECM software for the OEMs. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to see that code going over the wire. Ever. Toyota does some very special stuff in their ECM design and part of it includes writing to protected ROM so the code can never be changed. There are accessible portions of the maps, and there are inaccessible portions of the maps. It's just another one of the reasons why no one has cracked Toyota's ECMs, and I've been following this since I bought a Supra in 1994. I've had LOTS of discussions with people in the industry who are also developers (and h4x0rz) and we've all come to the conclusion it can't be done with Toyota's hardware, unless you are granted access.
SARD has obviously made a business case for this. Not sure yet how Toyota will respond if they start tuning US cars, so let's all hope for the best:
1. SARD's tools will work on USDM ECMs.
2. Toyota/Scion/Lexus do not take umbrage and cut SARD off from access to the tools once they start doing this.
Given Toyota's legal department and how ridiculously restrictive they are in the US, it would not surprise me at all if there are more issues to overcome or face as this moves forward. Again, let's all hope for the best. No one would like to see this option come to fruition more than I would.
Yes, the encryption is the problem. tgui, if you can write algorithms for cam timing control from scratch by reverse engineering, I seriously think you are not in the right business and you're making far less money than you could writing ECM software for the OEMs. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to see that code going over the wire. Ever. Toyota does some very special stuff in their ECM design and part of it includes writing to protected ROM so the code can never be changed. There are accessible portions of the maps, and there are inaccessible portions of the maps. It's just another one of the reasons why no one has cracked Toyota's ECMs, and I've been following this since I bought a Supra in 1994. I've had LOTS of discussions with people in the industry who are also developers (and h4x0rz) and we've all come to the conclusion it can't be done with Toyota's hardware, unless you are granted access.
SARD has obviously made a business case for this. Not sure yet how Toyota will respond if they start tuning US cars, so let's all hope for the best:
1. SARD's tools will work on USDM ECMs.
2. Toyota/Scion/Lexus do not take umbrage and cut SARD off from access to the tools once they start doing this.
Given Toyota's legal department and how ridiculously restrictive they are in the US, it would not surprise me at all if there are more issues to overcome or face as this moves forward. Again, let's all hope for the best. No one would like to see this option come to fruition more than I would.
FWIW, the people that write the code for ECUs are given easy to use toolkits. Cam timing etc would be a game of heuristics, logging and using tools and SDKs given to build up a releasable ROM. I once poured over Renesas toolkits. The defence and health world will remain my bread and butter.
I haven't had enough coffee to tie this up in a coherent response. Damn.
Suffice to say we agree on all points. If there are in fact good USD results from Sard tuning, I'll try to purchase the needed hardware. If I get that far I'll release any and all code and information needed to make it work. This is all pie in the sky thinking at this point of course.
I'll be watching and waiting.
03-18-13 | 10:45 AM
#78
A little update for all of you. I guess I can consider them GOOD NEWS.
First of all, to clear out some of the problem and questions that you guys mentioned.
Stay tune.
Thank you
Nigel
First of all, to clear out some of the problem and questions that you guys mentioned.
Stay tune.
Thank you
Nigel
Last edited by Nigel-JDMParts; 03-18-13 at 10:50 AM.
03-18-13 | 11:51 AM
#80
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: NOVA
1) I would like to pay for a good pre-programmed ECU that is more aggressive.
2) I would like to be able to then tune timing/fuel/injectors/knock control. Can I purchase SARD software and tune myself?
3) Can you tell us what limited tables and data the SARD software can change?
Thanks!
03-18-13 | 04:26 PM
#81
Pole Position
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 315
Likes: 2
From: VA
This is all good information. Will a solution he offered for the end user to tune their own cars? Similar to www.uprev.com for the 350z/g35/370z/g37 crowd. Just give me something like that and i will be happy.
03-18-13 | 06:30 PM
#82
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: NOVA
This is all good information. Will a solution he offered for the end user to tune their own cars? Similar to www.uprev.com for the 350z/g35/370z/g37 crowd. Just give me something like that and i will be happy.
www.uprev.com
Code:
Up to 5 Maps on cruise control equipped vehicles
Idle RPM
Speed Limiter
Electronic Throttle Control to achieve Wide Open Throttle at all speeds.
Rev Limiter
DTC disable
AFR Targets
Fuel Compensation
Ignition Timing Advance
Cam Phasing for equipped vehicles.
MAF transfer function
Cranking Enrichment and Ignition Advance
Injector Latency
K Fuel Multiplier
Intake Temp
Calculated Load vs. RPM
Minimum Effective Injector Pulse Width
03-19-13 | 11:36 PM
#87
Timing advance is not a performance increase. Timing should be set based on peak cylinder pressure and nothing else. Advancing timing arbitrarily is foolish, AMHIK.
03-20-13 | 01:55 AM
#88
Instructor
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 767
Likes: 10
From: NORCAL/GTA
Clearly i'm not talking about putting more timing on cursing speeds but in WOT situations in and after peak torque and even before. The stock timing map can only be so aggressive.
Last edited by zazzn; 03-20-13 at 02:02 AM.
03-20-13 | 07:18 AM
#89
You are clearly just being an negative Nancy. Foolish is thinking that 91 octane can provide full timing on a high compression engine.
Clearly i'm not talking about putting more timing on cursing speeds but in WOT situations in and after peak torque and even before. The stock timing map can only be so aggressive.
Clearly i'm not talking about putting more timing on cursing speeds but in WOT situations in and after peak torque and even before. The stock timing map can only be so aggressive.
03-20-13 | 07:41 AM
#90
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: NOVA
Oh SNAP!!! Breaking out the "Negative Nancy" card!....lol... That's just his style Zazzn, Lance doesn't mean any harm by it, so don't take it personally, he is just stating what "his" past experiences have been, and to boot I think he may have misunderstood your original statement. For what it's worth to ALL involved, being factual without being biting goes a long way in communication. None the less the Negative Nancy thing was hysterical....
I wouldn't bother with meth/water/E85 on a NA motor though. Its really hard to tune properly and its effects are too easily made detrimental on NA setups. You're already really close to safe amounts of timing as is. Going too close to TDC just absolutely hammers your bearings because of the torque vectors being accentuated on the bearings. God forbid you retard the flame front so much and run such high timing that you allow for ignition before TDC. (ouch)
The most I would do on my engine is a light water mist in super hot weather on track days just to ensure I'm not knocking at higher RPMs. No tuning needed.
Meth/Water/E85 on a turbo/SC engine is of course a different beast.
