Negative Nancy, Debbie Downer, Hater, WTFever. I just call it experience. So, you've done this and blown up a few engines? I have for sure. It's pretty expensive, and eats up a lot of development time not to mention ruins the cylinder head you just put 100 hours of port work in.

If you want to do timing right, you get instrumentation from Kistler, build a pressure/volume map of the engine in service under full load, and set timing for peak pressure at 8 degrees ATDC. Advancing timing beyond this will destroy the engine in seconds. BTDT.

Last but definitely not least, an engine needing more advance to work well means the combustion chamber design sucks. Some of the best engines I've seen need less than 10 degrees at full load. It takes a lot of careful work to get there, but the rewards are phenomenal, and fuel octane isn't the real problem here.

 

You might want to read Ricardo's work on water injection. Under all conditions, it allows you to run lower octane fuel and retain output.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/naca_H2O.pdf

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/NACA_H2O_2.pdf

I'm confused by "God forbid you retard the flame front so much and run such high timing that you allow for ignition before TDC. (ouch)" because all ignition timing is set BTDC. It's just a question of how much. I also agree, the OEM timing at WOT is going to be as close to right as you can expect unless you blueprint the engine - or at least set the combustion chamber squish to design spec, not production spec. But that's a whole different discussion.

 

Jeff Lange has made the only comment with any substance in this whole thread

 

Oh yeah, I know. I used to be able to run **** 80-something octane fuel in my turbo car with meth/water. Only did it once though.

I was just pointing out nicely that with good fuel and no tuning that doing a mist of water can still benefit you when racing. In VA summer it gets nasty hot and I liked having the water injection going on track days for added assurance. Because it was just a light water spray without tuning to extract more power, a pump failure wouldn't be the end of my engine.

As far as my cryptic message... I could have stated things clearer but went for brevity instead. Oops!


Water/meth alters when combustion occurs by altering the stability of the combustion under heat and pressure (effectively upping octane). It also causes an alteration of the flame front (how it occurs), propogation from ignition source to cylinder. (I could have bad sources) but had thought I read that water/meth injection can really slow this down. To compensate you have to run ridiculous appearing timing. If you have a poor tune or unreliable water/meth delivery this can cause the flame front to coincide with an up-stroke of the piston.


So, flame front down on piston moving up makes for pieces of piston, rings, connecting rods etc.. and I know you know this, just explaining my poor previouis post!


Unless we have reliable tuning and monitoring, water/meth on our cars for added power is just silly. Using it lightly to stabilize our engines under load is not so silly.


Slowing flame front:
http://www.avweb.com/news/features/a..._208139-1.html

 

Yes actually i've been though many engines. I'm a supra owner and not just a supra owner, but a mk3 supra owner. That means I order engines by the truck load. Currently my mk3 is on it's 5th engine and 6th transmission.

2 7m's, 1 1jz, 2 2jz's....

First 7m, BGH, tossed it for a JDM 7m and tossed on a MHG. Made 450WHP until I melted a piston (my tuning a little lean lesson learned)

1jz 523 HP, EGT's got a little too hot with water/meth and hurt a piston. But still driveable and making decent power. Finally finished off, by helping BC create the 1jz cams and testing all the configurations. After my 6 or 7th test set, I ended up spitting a shim because I was too lazy to change the one shim out because it was late and I was tired...

First 2jz made 647 WHP, ended up with a rod knock due to overheating because of a ****ty electric fan setup.......

On current 2jz, mechanical fan, 430 whp on stock twins, running great... When I get around to Toronto to run it.

Yes every SINGLE engine was tuned by me except for the 647 which was tuned by John Reed on my AEM, however, I started the base map he finished it.

Oh and I tuned my mk4 and my aristo which never blew an engine ever and ran like champs for LONG periods of time and drove like stock! So yes I had my learning process and cost me tons of money.

Anyways, rant done.

So yes with water/meth or E85.... Tuning in or out timing ad fuel would be very handy is all i'm saying.

 

Like this one I did for an NA 2JZ. Last I heard the owner was running 8's with it:





So while I'm really glad we'll have an option to use the OEM ECM and get more, I'm really interested in what Slay is doing, and very interested in what a properly blueprinted 2UR-GSE would do with a tighter tune, because we wouldn't be talking about water and meth if the squish is set right.

 

^^ Impressive!

 

Very interesting thread. It sounds like there are a few of you with serious programming chops in here. From what I'm reading/understanding, IF this "tune" becomes a reality, it'll operate just like a reflash.

For those that remember, Hondata only offered (and probably still offers) a reflash for the K20A and K20A2 and a few other engines before they released K-Pro, which was the fully tuneable program. People would send their ECU off for a reflash, have their car down for about 2-3 days, and then receive the remapped ECU for plug-n-play performance. It'd change the redline, VTEC engagement point and add about 15whp and torque. It was a mild upgrade, but performance you could feel. It was best when used with a cold air intake, but worked just fine on a bone stock car.

It seems like the best that we can expect is a reflash for our ISF, which of course is better than nothing. I'd like to see some dyno plots if/when this becomes available.

 

this ever go anywhere?

 

When does it ever haha

 

If we can send a U.S. spec IS F to Japan, Yes, it can be done 100%.
Once the first one is done, then everyone can do it.

 

Hell we can send my IS-F then. I don't mind shipping it to Japan.....IF I could get the tune for no cost. We could start a "kickstarter"!!!

 

Novel has a LHD Lexus ISF already.

 

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/...03404549_n.jpg

Does Stock ECU @ 393.6whp include Novel headers & exhaust?

 

^^^^You don't need Novel headers and exhaust to get over 390 wheel HP. Attached is a dyno chart showing:

1. My F with PPE headers and the prototype of PPE's new dual mode exhaust with cats that produced over 392whp on the dyno.

2. A friends F with PPE headers and the JoeZ exhaust with no cats that produced over 399whp on the same dyno, a few month's earlier.

Lou