High Altitude + Tune = Think again (bye KCLV)
05-21-16, 06:24 PM
#16
05-21-16, 07:50 PM
#17
Uh oh guys.... looks like it's not just High Altitude.
Just went to check out my KCLV, I'm at sea level here and before my KCLV was over 20, and I just checked it right now again because of curiosity thanks to this thread. My below and above 3k values have dropped down to 17.8 and 17.2
I have not resetted my ECU since installing.
I've been using the same 76 gas, nothing has changed really. The only thing changed is my driving habit, I've been driving it much more "normal and calm" than when I first got the tune.
Looking at my pre tune logs, my KCLV levels were all over 20. Could I have gotten a bad tank of gas recently or is the tune just a bit too aggressive for 91 octane?
Just went to check out my KCLV, I'm at sea level here and before my KCLV was over 20, and I just checked it right now again because of curiosity thanks to this thread. My below and above 3k values have dropped down to 17.8 and 17.2
I have not resetted my ECU since installing. I've been using the same 76 gas, nothing has changed really. The only thing changed is my driving habit, I've been driving it much more "normal and calm" than when I first got the tune.
Looking at my pre tune logs, my KCLV levels were all over 20. Could I have gotten a bad tank of gas recently or is the tune just a bit too aggressive for 91 octane?
05-21-16, 08:18 PM
#18
Uh oh guys.... looks like it's not just High Altitude.
Just went to check out my KCLV, I'm at sea level here and before my KCLV was over 20, and I just checked it right now again because of curiosity thanks to this thread. My below and above 3k values have dropped down to 17.8 and 17.2 I have not resetted my ECU since installing.
I've been using the same 76 gas, nothing has changed really. The only thing changed is my driving habit, I've been driving it much more "normal and calm" than when I first got the tune.
Looking at my pre tune logs, my KCLV levels were all over 20. Could I have gotten a bad tank of gas recently or is the tune just a bit too aggressive for 91 octane?
Just went to check out my KCLV, I'm at sea level here and before my KCLV was over 20, and I just checked it right now again because of curiosity thanks to this thread. My below and above 3k values have dropped down to 17.8 and 17.2
I have not resetted my ECU since installing. I've been using the same 76 gas, nothing has changed really. The only thing changed is my driving habit, I've been driving it much more "normal and calm" than when I first got the tune.
Looking at my pre tune logs, my KCLV levels were all over 20. Could I have gotten a bad tank of gas recently or is the tune just a bit too aggressive for 91 octane?
05-21-16, 08:35 PM
#19
Just went out to do some pulls while monitoring the KCLV, did a bunch of 6th, 7th and 8th gear pulls.
The KCLV below and above 3k stayed at 17.8/17.2, did not move one bit, before it would rise right away doing those pulls.
Now the question is, would a tuned KCLV level at 17ish perform worse than a stock tune with KCLV levels over 20? I'd hate to pay over 600 to get worse than stock performance, unless I'm on 93+ Octane or having to pour in a bottle of octane booster every tank.
The KCLV below and above 3k stayed at 17.8/17.2, did not move one bit, before it would rise right away doing those pulls.
Now the question is, would a tuned KCLV level at 17ish perform worse than a stock tune with KCLV levels over 20? I'd hate to pay over 600 to get worse than stock performance, unless I'm on 93+ Octane or having to pour in a bottle of octane booster every tank.
05-21-16, 08:43 PM
#20
Lexus does not recommend blended gasoline
● Lexus allows the use of oxygenate blended gasoline where the oxygenate con-
tent is up to 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE.
● If you use gasohol in your Lexus, be sure that it has an octane rating no lower than87.
● Lexus DOES NOT recommend the use of gasoline containing methanol
http://drivers.lexus.com/t3Portal/do...f/OM53893U.pdf
● Lexus allows the use of oxygenate blended gasoline where the oxygenate con-
tent is up to 10% ethanol or 15% MTBE.
● If you use gasohol in your Lexus, be sure that it has an octane rating no lower than87.
● Lexus DOES NOT recommend the use of gasoline containing methanol
http://drivers.lexus.com/t3Portal/do...f/OM53893U.pdf
05-22-16, 01:49 AM
#21
Sponsor
iTrader: (1)
Well I figured I'd start a new thread to add more knowledge to the tuned community and give some important info to those considering the tune who DO NOT live at sea level.
WARNING lots of reading I'll add cliff notes for you lazy people
I'll start by saying the mile high group were the first on the board to give independent dyno results after the tunes were released. I was reluctant to be the baseline for everyone here since I was skeptical of the altitude and the tune behaving. Many people bashed us because not all of us did baselines ect ect but whatever... We have a good mixture of mods between a few of us and about 5 of us dyno'd the same day previously. Myself and another board member have nearly identical mods with the exception of tune TTFS vs RR and catted vs decatted. After our initial dyno day us with the tune were a little disappointed with the outcome of our tunes vs non tuned cars. I chalked mine up to only having a few hundred miles on my TTFS tune and thought maybe it didn't 'learn' enough yet... I didnt have Techstream yet. I've recently got my Techstream up and running with all this KCLV talk and have been doing the typical logging to research KCLV numbers since I was planning on hitting the dyno up again tomorrow (sat 5/21). After my first numbers pulled were a little frighteningly low I began reading and doing what the other members have been recommending as far as high gear WOT pulls to pull the numbers up.
Day 1. Pull my numbers after 2k miles with the tune. KCLV =14.9/13.x (under 3k/over 3k)
"That can't be right, can it?" I didn't think it was supposed to go under the 'default' value of 15. I'm at about 58k miles nearly so I think hmm maybe I should replace my plugs. I order some OEM Denso plugs but until then lets go try doing some highway pulls until those show up. I get the car all warmed up and head out to the highway with my laptop and Techstream riding shotgun.
I begin doing some high load 6-8 gear pulls while trying to monitor the KCLV. I eagerly expect this value to be climbing as others have stated but mine keeps going down. I do more and more pulls with the same result and head back home.
End of day 1. My KCLV values have now plummeted to 10s/11s... yes you're reading that correct.
Day 2. Pull the ECU fuses lets reset this bad boy this can't be real life. Warm up the car and head out to the open roads for more WOT pulls... more WTF moments as my KCLV continue to plummet from 15 back down. Amazon Prime FTW my spark plugs arrive tomorrow. Read up on the boards and people recommend Octane booster... that's my next thing after testing my plugs.
Day 3. Plugs arrive and head to my buddies shop and bribe some local F guys to help swap my plugs, that was fun. New plugs, new high KCLV numbers here I come! Wait now my Techstream wont connect, how convenient... did some troubleshooting & fix it. stupid antivirus keeps removing the xhorse dll as a 'virus'. I replace it good to go. Buy some Royal Purple octane booster.
Day 4. Add more 91 Shell (91 highest in CO)... Off to try more pulls with the new plugs... KCLV still sucks after wasting a half tank driving around.
Day 5. Head to gas station add RP octane booster to half tank of gas and topped off again before work. Go do more pulls tonight... nope still just drops even after resetting the ecu ect. Head to meet up with the local guys now that I've got my Techstream running and thinking my car is just FUBAR. Hook up to the RR tuned ECU and to my excitement (mostly that my car isn't really FUBAR) and his numbers were below 15 as well. I let him do some pulls and his is behaving exactly like mine where the numbers are going down @ WOT. Hooked up to our buddies non tuned ECU and his values are all above 15 and closer to 20. So much like I had posted in one of the other tuned threads I was skeptical of the 'cookie cutter' tune. I wanted to use altitude as a bit of an excuse but now it seems to backed up a bit more with evidence that works great for the sea level folks but sucks ***** for altitude. I'm planning on trying to get the KCLV of other stock vs tuned Colorado guys but we're all over the state so that's going to take some work.
Cliffs:
-My KCLV numbers sucked bad... like really bad.
-Bought new OEM plugs and installed them
-KCLV numbers didn't climb but instead keep going down at WOT.
-Reset ECU and the default value of 15 goes down at WOT again. Think my car is damaged.
-Added Royal Purple Octane booster to Shell 91 and still not helping
-Pull KCLV of fellow members RR tuned car his numbers suck as well even after doing more WOT pulls. Good my car isn't broke.
-Pull non tuned ecu KCLV... his numbers are closer to 20.
-Tuned ECU at high altitude (5,280') is doing the opposite to KCLV numbers than at sea level.
-Planning to pull more KCLV numbers from other locals to see tuned vs non tuned to gather more data.
Hope this information is useful to those still considering the tune and even to the tuners. It's definitely not the end all be all tune for everyone. Seems like it works great for those at low elevation but its not helping us at all one bit and needs work...So until TTFS and RR get that resolved for us I'd say hold on to that money if a future tune is burning a hole in your pocket.
WARNING lots of reading I'll add cliff notes for you lazy people
I'll start by saying the mile high group were the first on the board to give independent dyno results after the tunes were released. I was reluctant to be the baseline for everyone here since I was skeptical of the altitude and the tune behaving. Many people bashed us because not all of us did baselines ect ect but whatever... We have a good mixture of mods between a few of us and about 5 of us dyno'd the same day previously. Myself and another board member have nearly identical mods with the exception of tune TTFS vs RR and catted vs decatted. After our initial dyno day us with the tune were a little disappointed with the outcome of our tunes vs non tuned cars. I chalked mine up to only having a few hundred miles on my TTFS tune and thought maybe it didn't 'learn' enough yet... I didnt have Techstream yet. I've recently got my Techstream up and running with all this KCLV talk and have been doing the typical logging to research KCLV numbers since I was planning on hitting the dyno up again tomorrow (sat 5/21). After my first numbers pulled were a little frighteningly low I began reading and doing what the other members have been recommending as far as high gear WOT pulls to pull the numbers up.
Day 1. Pull my numbers after 2k miles with the tune. KCLV =14.9/13.x (under 3k/over 3k)
"That can't be right, can it?" I didn't think it was supposed to go under the 'default' value of 15. I'm at about 58k miles nearly so I think hmm maybe I should replace my plugs. I order some OEM Denso plugs but until then lets go try doing some highway pulls until those show up. I get the car all warmed up and head out to the highway with my laptop and Techstream riding shotgun.I begin doing some high load 6-8 gear pulls while trying to monitor the KCLV. I eagerly expect this value to be climbing as others have stated but mine keeps going down. I do more and more pulls with the same result and head back home.
End of day 1. My KCLV values have now plummeted to 10s/11s... yes you're reading that correct.
Day 2. Pull the ECU fuses lets reset this bad boy this can't be real life. Warm up the car and head out to the open roads for more WOT pulls... more WTF moments as my KCLV continue to plummet from 15 back down. Amazon Prime FTW my spark plugs arrive tomorrow. Read up on the boards and people recommend Octane booster... that's my next thing after testing my plugs.
Day 3. Plugs arrive and head to my buddies shop and bribe some local F guys to help swap my plugs, that was fun. New plugs, new high KCLV numbers here I come! Wait now my Techstream wont connect, how convenient... did some troubleshooting & fix it. stupid antivirus keeps removing the xhorse dll as a 'virus'. I replace it good to go. Buy some Royal Purple octane booster.
Day 4. Add more 91 Shell (91 highest in CO)... Off to try more pulls with the new plugs... KCLV still sucks after wasting a half tank driving around.
Day 5. Head to gas station add RP octane booster to half tank of gas and topped off again before work. Go do more pulls tonight... nope still just drops even after resetting the ecu ect. Head to meet up with the local guys now that I've got my Techstream running and thinking my car is just FUBAR. Hook up to the RR tuned ECU and to my excitement (mostly that my car isn't really FUBAR) and his numbers were below 15 as well. I let him do some pulls and his is behaving exactly like mine where the numbers are going down @ WOT. Hooked up to our buddies non tuned ECU and his values are all above 15 and closer to 20. So much like I had posted in one of the other tuned threads I was skeptical of the 'cookie cutter' tune. I wanted to use altitude as a bit of an excuse but now it seems to backed up a bit more with evidence that works great for the sea level folks but sucks ***** for altitude. I'm planning on trying to get the KCLV of other stock vs tuned Colorado guys but we're all over the state so that's going to take some work.
Cliffs:
-My KCLV numbers sucked bad... like really bad.
-Bought new OEM plugs and installed them
-KCLV numbers didn't climb but instead keep going down at WOT.
-Reset ECU and the default value of 15 goes down at WOT again. Think my car is damaged.
-Added Royal Purple Octane booster to Shell 91 and still not helping
-Pull KCLV of fellow members RR tuned car his numbers suck as well even after doing more WOT pulls. Good my car isn't broke.
-Pull non tuned ecu KCLV... his numbers are closer to 20.
-Tuned ECU at high altitude (5,280') is doing the opposite to KCLV numbers than at sea level.
-Planning to pull more KCLV numbers from other locals to see tuned vs non tuned to gather more data.
Hope this information is useful to those still considering the tune and even to the tuners. It's definitely not the end all be all tune for everyone. Seems like it works great for those at low elevation but its not helping us at all one bit and needs work...So until TTFS and RR get that resolved for us I'd say hold on to that money if a future tune is burning a hole in your pocket.
Since you don't have our tune, I am really curious whose car you datalogged a low KCLV on and what the numbers actually were with our tune.
Secondly, I suspect most of you guys are not driving at over 4000ft elevation (which is I suspect about 95% of you). So obviously our tune was not tested at that kind of altitude, as we would have had to drive the car up Mt. Washington to do so
That said, as of today, we have not received a single complete datalog from a high altitude car. The good news is that if something needs to be improved, it is much easier to do so now with the OBD handheld tuner. So we look forward to receiving some data and trying some things out.Rafi
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Last edited by RRRacing; 05-22-16 at 01:54 AM.
05-22-16, 07:47 AM
#22
Thanks Rafi, hoping some of the guys here can send you some data numbers. We know you are at a much lower elevation and haven't had the opportunity to optimize the tune for this altitude.
Sadly, I haven't bought a tune yet... Have not done any data logging either (Mac user) Does any software exist for data logging that is Mac friendly? I don't have any Windows software to try and setup dual boot on my old mac laptop.
Just checked my altitude, where my house sits it shows over 5,700ft above sea level. I can't speak for all the Colorado guys/gals, but I think most of us live and drive over 5,280ft elevation on a regular basis.
Sadly, I haven't bought a tune yet... Have not done any data logging either (Mac user) Does any software exist for data logging that is Mac friendly? I don't have any Windows software to try and setup dual boot on my old mac laptop.
Just checked my altitude, where my house sits it shows over 5,700ft above sea level. I can't speak for all the Colorado guys/gals, but I think most of us live and drive over 5,280ft elevation on a regular basis.
05-22-16, 10:27 AM
#23
Pole Position
So it looks like it would be safe to conclude that the tuned ECU's timing is too aggressive to run at altitude, causing engine knock, and causing the KCLV to drop when driven hard.
On a stock ECU, the timing is not as aggressive, and is less prone to knock when driven hard, allowing the KCLV to stay up in the 20's ....?
On a stock ECU, the timing is not as aggressive, and is less prone to knock when driven hard, allowing the KCLV to stay up in the 20's ....?
05-22-16, 01:55 PM
#24
Driver
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It probably makes sense to revert back to stock and monitor KCLV values, since you weren't looking at them before. Although you must not have the ODB turner since that was just released, disregard not easy to go back to stock without buying that thing.
05-22-16, 06:52 PM
#25
Advanced
Thread Starter
Since you don't have our tune, I am really curious whose car you datalogged a low KCLV on and what the numbers actually were with our tune.
Secondly, I suspect most of you guys are not driving at over 4000ft elevation (which is I suspect about 95% of you). So obviously our tune was not tested at that kind of altitude, as we would have had to drive the car up Mt. Washington to do so That said, as of today, we have not received a single complete datalog from a high altitude car. The good news is that if something needs to be improved, it is much easier to do so now with the OBD handheld tuner. So we look forward to receiving some data and trying some things out.
Rafi
Secondly, I suspect most of you guys are not driving at over 4000ft elevation (which is I suspect about 95% of you). So obviously our tune was not tested at that kind of altitude, as we would have had to drive the car up Mt. Washington to do so
That said, as of today, we have not received a single complete datalog from a high altitude car. The good news is that if something needs to be improved, it is much easier to do so now with the OBD handheld tuner. So we look forward to receiving some data and trying some things out.Rafi
TTFS included the OBD tuner when I purchased my tune earlier this year. I was already considering flashing back to my stock map and seeing what happens I just wish I had time to have done it before the dyno day yesterday. I wish I discovered all this info a week sooner and had time to troubleshoot before my dyno day. Oh well shoulda, woulda, coulda. No more dyno days for me til hopefully Frank comes out here. If/when I revert back I'll throw more info in here but I'm assuming based off other locals w/o the tune that my KCLV will infact go up.
05-23-16, 07:47 AM
#26
Awesome information. Thanks for doing the leg work! Are these numbers corrected? If not, 377 N/A at our altitude is pretty impressive, IMO.
Also, my family used to own a gas station on Centennial and 30th and we had 93 octane. Couldn't begin to tell you the amount of exotic/fast(er) cars I saw while working there - clearly taking advantage of the only 93 octane in the city. It might be worth a call to see if they still carry 93 octane.
Also, my family used to own a gas station on Centennial and 30th and we had 93 octane. Couldn't begin to tell you the amount of exotic/fast(er) cars I saw while working there - clearly taking advantage of the only 93 octane in the city. It might be worth a call to see if they still carry 93 octane.
05-23-16, 09:38 AM
#27
Any other tuned CA cars can confirm KCLV levels dropping down to below stock levels on 91 gas?
If that's the case, I'll be ordering a case of Torco octane boosters, half a can (16oz) at every fill up is like an extra $11.. which ain't so bad.
If that's the case, I'll be ordering a case of Torco octane boosters, half a can (16oz) at every fill up is like an extra $11.. which ain't so bad.
Last edited by RSXiMUS; 05-23-16 at 09:50 AM.
05-23-16, 10:59 AM
#28
Funny I asked the question when the tunes came out if I would need to data log for my altitude I drive anywhere from 3,500-4,500ft and I was told no we have enough logs... It was a huge red flag for me if a tuner dosent know a car at altitude needs a different tune than one at sea level.
I am hoping a custom tuning options becomes availible soon so everyone can get dyno tunes for the altitude and fuel they run. Even with superchargers becoming availible and I have a couple shops near me that would love to build turbo systems for the ISF (unobtanium welding and Boosted performance are both friends of mine google them to see thier work) until custom tuning is availible we will be living with one size fits all tunes.
I am hoping a custom tuning options becomes availible soon so everyone can get dyno tunes for the altitude and fuel they run. Even with superchargers becoming availible and I have a couple shops near me that would love to build turbo systems for the ISF (unobtanium welding and Boosted performance are both friends of mine google them to see thier work) until custom tuning is availible we will be living with one size fits all tunes.
05-24-16, 09:03 PM
#29
Well I spoke to Rafi today for quite some time... We went over a few things and he is without a doubt eager to help and get this tune up an running for us at altitude. We are suspecting that the tune may be too aggressive for the current air flow causing the ecu to pull timing. There has been some power gains for sure but the timing being pulled seems to be "evening itself out". Rafi at RR has his hands tied at the moment, I haven't been able to get him accurate data logs. The cell phone apps are just not cutting it. I'm a first time data logger and mediocre at computers, we all start somewhere. Waiting (hopefully) a good friend will be able to back door the tech stream onto my laptop so I can shoot Rafi results on the fly and get some issues sorted out. With the new handheld I can log several maps and find what works best for future tunes at altitude. Hopefully, given our data a middle ground can be met to maximize the tunes efficiency at mid altitudes around 2k-4k Ft and so fourth if need be. I will keep everyone posted on the progress being made
05-25-16, 09:00 AM
#30
My house in Colorado Springs sits at 6600', so I would never consider buying a blanket tune that works best in elevations that I will probably never see.
If they don't want to spend the time to supply to the above guesstimated %5 of us up in this clean, crisp air, then I wouldn't bother with a tune. I completely understand that it's a business decision as RRR doesn't want to lose money, but if it's as simple as viewing data logs and adjusting numbers to prevent knock, I hope they cater to us.