Will the ISF run well with a blend of e85?
10-31-16, 02:56 PM
#138
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
The ECM starts learning in seconds once you get to closed loop operation and we have a wideband primary sensor, so I wouldn't bother with resetting it.
11-01-16, 11:28 AM
#140
Presuming this forum is open to diverse opinions; i'm kind of surprised I'd be the first to diss ethanol. I believe corn ethanol is a very politically motivated product designed to generate tax incentives and perhaps originally to reduce dependence on middle east oil, though since we and Canada produce so much oil now that part is not really a factor. Also, corn is not that easy to process into ethanol so it actually takes more energy to produce it than it generates. Finally i don't really trust long term effects on seals and engines. Fossil fuels get a bad rap from certain left wing environmentalists but for now there really isn't anything that produces energy so efficiently as good old oil.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
11-01-16, 11:46 AM
#141
Pole Position
Presuming this forum is open to diverse opinions; i'm kind of surprised I'd be the first to diss ethanol. I believe corn ethanol is a very politically motivated product designed to generate tax incentives and perhaps originally to reduce dependence on middle east oil, though since we and Canada produce so much oil now that part is not really a factor. Also, corn is not that easy to process into ethanol so it actually takes more energy to produce it than it generates. Finally i don't really trust long term effects on seals and engines. Fossil fuels get a bad rap from certain left wing environmentalists but for now there really isn't anything that produces energy so efficiently as good old oil.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
11-01-16, 12:56 PM
#143
Pole Position
Presuming this forum is open to diverse opinions; i'm kind of surprised I'd be the first to diss ethanol. I believe corn ethanol is a very politically motivated product designed to generate tax incentives and perhaps originally to reduce dependence on middle east oil, though since we and Canada produce so much oil now that part is not really a factor. Also, corn is not that easy to process into ethanol so it actually takes more energy to produce it than it generates. Finally i don't really trust long term effects on seals and engines. Fossil fuels get a bad rap from certain left wing environmentalists but for now there really isn't anything that produces energy so efficiently as good old oil.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
Agreed! And to point out it's over a $1 less than premium @104 octane here locally anyway which is a bonus! What's not to like.....
Last edited by MileHIFcar; 11-01-16 at 01:00 PM.
11-01-16, 01:12 PM
#144
Pole Position
Presuming this forum is open to diverse opinions; i'm kind of surprised I'd be the first to diss ethanol. I believe corn ethanol is a very politically motivated product designed to generate tax incentives and perhaps originally to reduce dependence on middle east oil, though since we and Canada produce so much oil now that part is not really a factor. Also, corn is not that easy to process into ethanol so it actually takes more energy to produce it than it generates. Finally i don't really trust long term effects on seals and engines. Fossil fuels get a bad rap from certain left wing environmentalists but for now there really isn't anything that produces energy so efficiently as good old oil.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
Ethanol, solar, big batteries; none of these are an ultimate solution or replacement for fossil fuel cars. Don't get me wrong, i would welcome a new form of efficient energy like a dylithium crystal-driven car, i just think its okay to use oil until that new form of energy is discovered.
In the end , political motivation or not, science is science. Ethanol has been proven to produce better power (through higher cylinder pressures, not energy/ unit mass) and fewer greenhouse gas pending design of the engine and origin of the raw fuel source (corn vs. sugar/biomass). I have also read some articles pointing to the fact that it actually does not take more energy to produce, although this tends to go back and forth. I actually think politics is why people tend to want to crush ethanol before it can gain traction. Let's not pretend that the politics of big oil (right wing?) probably far outweigh that of bio fuels, they have been in the game a little longer.
On the vehicle design side I can understand your concern, I do think there is truth on the effects of ethanol on car components, mainly designed for fossil fuels. Working for a automotive company I can tell you that if cost can be saved on NOT putting in special components/coatings when needed, cost will be saved. Ethanol has proven to be corrosive (mainly from it's hygroscopic qualities) for both metallic and polymer components if not designed. I know most modern cars have been designed to resist E10-E15 but when putting in anything above that we are putting additional faith in the engineers and beancounters going beyond the standard/requirements, which is entirely possible but still involves some risk. Motor oil has also been known to get diluted from usage, even on FFVs. The Toyota Tundra which also uses the UR motor has a Flex fuel version and requires the oil changes be done in half the interval (according to service manual). Don't get me wrong though, I'm not against trying E20 or even E30 in the F for some additional post-tune power, I have done it and enjoy all the data and technical discussion surrounding it. I would just like to bring attention to the fact that based on the frequency of use we might have to pay more attention to whats going on technically. Counterpoints welcome, as i'm still learning about this.
11-01-16, 03:44 PM
#145
In the end , political motivation or not, science is science. Ethanol has been proven to produce better power (through higher cylinder pressures, not energy/ unit mass) and fewer greenhouse gas pending design of the engine and origin of the raw fuel source (corn vs. sugar/biomass). I have also read some articles pointing to the fact that it actually does not take more energy to produce, although this tends to go back and forth. I actually think politics is why people tend to want to crush ethanol before it can gain traction. Let's not pretend that the politics of big oil (right wing?) probably far outweigh that of bio fuels, they have been in the game a little longer.
On the vehicle design side I can understand your concern, I do think there is truth on the effects of ethanol on car components, mainly designed for fossil fuels. Working for a automotive company I can tell you that if cost can be saved on NOT putting in special components/coatings when needed, cost will be saved. Ethanol has proven to be corrosive (mainly from it's hygroscopic qualities) for both metallic and polymer components if not designed. I know most modern cars have been designed to resist E10-E15 but when putting in anything above that we are putting additional faith in the engineers and beancounters going beyond the standard/requirements, which is entirely possible but still involves some risk. Motor oil has also been known to get diluted from usage, even on FFVs. The Toyota Tundra which also uses the UR motor has a Flex fuel version and requires the oil changes be done in half the interval (according to service manual). Don't get me wrong though, I'm not against trying E20 or even E30 in the F for some additional post-tune power, I have done it and enjoy all the data and technical discussion surrounding it. I would just like to bring attention to the fact that based on the frequency of use we might have to pay more attention to whats going on technically. Counterpoints welcome, as i'm still learning about this.
On the vehicle design side I can understand your concern, I do think there is truth on the effects of ethanol on car components, mainly designed for fossil fuels. Working for a automotive company I can tell you that if cost can be saved on NOT putting in special components/coatings when needed, cost will be saved. Ethanol has proven to be corrosive (mainly from it's hygroscopic qualities) for both metallic and polymer components if not designed. I know most modern cars have been designed to resist E10-E15 but when putting in anything above that we are putting additional faith in the engineers and beancounters going beyond the standard/requirements, which is entirely possible but still involves some risk. Motor oil has also been known to get diluted from usage, even on FFVs. The Toyota Tundra which also uses the UR motor has a Flex fuel version and requires the oil changes be done in half the interval (according to service manual). Don't get me wrong though, I'm not against trying E20 or even E30 in the F for some additional post-tune power, I have done it and enjoy all the data and technical discussion surrounding it. I would just like to bring attention to the fact that based on the frequency of use we might have to pay more attention to whats going on technically. Counterpoints welcome, as i'm still learning about this.
Thanks for sharing.-Mike
11-01-16, 03:57 PM
#146
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Greenhouse gas is a politically charged word. When someone can explain why the polar ice cap on Mars is disappearing too, I'll start to believe there may be a grain of truth in the whole silliness about anthropogenic climate change. Until then, any alcohol makes more power because the heat of vaporization is greater which means the fuel naturally resists detonation better. Alcohol is not cheap to produce without subsidies, and is especially more expensive when the government taxes it instead of subsidizing it - go to any bar and feel the pain of paying tax for your alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
11-01-16, 04:01 PM
#147
Greenhouse gas is a politically charged word. When someone can explain why the polar ice cap on Mars is disappearing too, I'll start to believe there may be a grain of truth in the whole silliness about anthropogenic climate change. Until then, any alcohol makes more power because the heat of vaporization is greater which means the fuel naturally resists detonation better. Alcohol is not cheap to produce without subsidies, and is especially more expensive when the government taxes it instead of subsidizing it - go to any bar and feel the pain of paying tax for your alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
Thanks! -Mike
11-02-16, 06:48 AM
#148
Pole Position
Greenhouse gas is a politically charged word. When someone can explain why the polar ice cap on Mars is disappearing too, I'll start to believe there may be a grain of truth in the whole silliness about anthropogenic climate change. Until then, any alcohol makes more power because the heat of vaporization is greater which means the fuel naturally resists detonation better. Alcohol is not cheap to produce without subsidies, and is especially more expensive when the government taxes it instead of subsidizing it - go to any bar and feel the pain of paying tax for your alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
I agree, long term high alcohol content usage was probably not a design parameter for our DI.
11-02-16, 06:53 AM
#149
Greenhouse gas is a politically charged word. When someone can explain why the polar ice cap on Mars is disappearing too, I'll start to believe there may be a grain of truth in the whole silliness about anthropogenic climate change. Until then, any alcohol makes more power because the heat of vaporization is greater which means the fuel naturally resists detonation better. Alcohol is not cheap to produce without subsidies, and is especially more expensive when the government taxes it instead of subsidizing it - go to any bar and feel the pain of paying tax for your alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
Alcohol has fewer BTUs per unit volume, so you need more to go the same distance. Add 10% alcohol to your fuel, expect about 4% less fuel economy. But, if you build an engine to run on alcohol, you can put static compression much higher than a gasoline engine, or you can boost the same compression ratio much higher because you can resist detonation better. You just have to make everything happy running on alcohol. Viton seals everywhere. Anodized aluminum. Teflon. Lots of fun stuff. But even the alcohol guys "pickle" their engines with gasoline to prevent corrosion.
With direct injection, I'd be less inclined to believe high alcohol content is going to make a happy engine long term. Those injectors were never intended for high percentages of alcohol.
11-02-16, 12:37 PM
#150
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)