DIY: 08-14 ISF Valley Plate/Heat Exchanger
10-06-20, 05:26 PM
#31
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To this end, why fix it at all? I'm adding a pint or two maybe every three months, and am extra vigilant on track days... Is the tiny modicum of added peace of mind really worth the kilobuck or two Lexus wants for this (or the 5-8hrs of my time)? For me, definitely not yet.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
It can likely progress into something more problematic as the leaking area can widen in time..
Then you'll need more of an emergency repair somewhere down the road..
Joe Z
10-06-20, 06:02 PM
#32
To this end, why fix it at all? I'm adding a pint or two maybe every three months, and am extra vigilant on track days... Is the tiny modicum of added peace of mind really worth the kilobuck or two Lexus wants for this (or the 5-8hrs of my time)? For me, definitely not yet.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
For starters, a sealed system has a higher boiling point, you want this, this is how cars are designed and helps them peak and recover more quickly. When you reach 205-212* on track you can expect a thermal expansion in a sealed system at around 6% or 10-12PSI. that's what worked the sealent loose in the first place. Now you have a leak and the car spews coolant. When the fluid cools after losing a few table spoons of coolant, its drawing in air at the low spot of the valley plate since that is the path of least resistance over the 15psi fill cap. This adding air to the mix creates localized boiling and steam pockets and can cause your T-stat to not open if it get caught up in the wrong place. The steam pockets and unsealed system work in tandem to lower your boiling threshold and create more steam thereby working more and more valley plate sealant loose. This is not an infinite loop something will give at some point even if you just keep adding fluid. Something that may have held on under normal has a very finite life when you are increasing the waterpump flow rate with higher revs and heatload on track, It will "let go". Ask me how I know this.
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10-06-20, 09:19 PM
#33
Interesting feedback gents, thank you. Yes, curious about yours letting go.... "very finite life" ...radiator hose? That wouldn't surprise me, but catastrophic failures due to sudden release of coolant via valley plate? I'm not aware of these.
If it's a slow seepage as I've understood is typical, my heat xfer engineer brain tells me closed circuit should easily refill via overflow tank well before any air, no? Air entrainment is the only option after overflow runs dry, but unlikely if one stays on top of topping off coolant.
In my case, I'd noticed losing traces of coolant before any track time, and I've not seen an increase in consumption since tracking, despite all sessions at 90-100F, over a span between 65-110k miles and ~3 years.
If it's a slow seepage as I've understood is typical, my heat xfer engineer brain tells me closed circuit should easily refill via overflow tank well before any air, no? Air entrainment is the only option after overflow runs dry, but unlikely if one stays on top of topping off coolant.
In my case, I'd noticed losing traces of coolant before any track time, and I've not seen an increase in consumption since tracking, despite all sessions at 90-100F, over a span between 65-110k miles and ~3 years.
10-07-20, 08:59 AM
#34
Its really in your best interest to get it taken care of.
see pics at https://www.clublexus.com/forums/bui...l#post10892772
excerpt from thread - "Well, got under the car today and confirmed my suspensions. I don't know how I avoided the valley plate leak for as long as i did, my car never had so much as a drop down the trans or in the valley when i scoped it. I guess driving the water pump hard with the temps adding to the pressures finally just caused the dam to break"
see pics at https://www.clublexus.com/forums/bui...l#post10892772
excerpt from thread - "Well, got under the car today and confirmed my suspensions. I don't know how I avoided the valley plate leak for as long as i did, my car never had so much as a drop down the trans or in the valley when i scoped it. I guess driving the water pump hard with the temps adding to the pressures finally just caused the dam to break"
10-07-20, 12:41 PM
#35
Interesting feedback gents, thank you. Yes, curious about yours letting go.... "very finite life" ...radiator hose? That wouldn't surprise me, but catastrophic failures due to sudden release of coolant via valley plate? I'm not aware of these.
If it's a slow seepage as I've understood is typical, my heat xfer engineer brain tells me closed circuit should easily refill via overflow tank well before any air, no? Air entrainment is the only option after overflow runs dry, but unlikely if one stays on top of topping off coolant.
In my case, I'd noticed losing traces of coolant before any track time, and I've not seen an increase in consumption since tracking, despite all sessions at 90-100F, over a span between 65-110k miles and ~3 years.
If it's a slow seepage as I've understood is typical, my heat xfer engineer brain tells me closed circuit should easily refill via overflow tank well before any air, no? Air entrainment is the only option after overflow runs dry, but unlikely if one stays on top of topping off coolant.
In my case, I'd noticed losing traces of coolant before any track time, and I've not seen an increase in consumption since tracking, despite all sessions at 90-100F, over a span between 65-110k miles and ~3 years.
I went from like 2-3 drops of long dried coolant when scoping under the throttle body, to pulling the car off the trailer after a track day and literally having a pool of pink crust reveal itself when winching the car down. Putting it up in the air I saw this..
I am extremely meticulous about my track cars and there was zero sign other than old crust before the trackday.
Also, food for thought- I was driving a friend of mines ISF this summer and hes in a similar situation to yours, just refilling it as needed. I did a trans flush for him before and was aware of the how much his car was leaking by the streaks of coolant down his trans. A few weeks later we had the car up in the air to do a nut a bolt check for clicking in his USRS and the coolant was leaking much worse than before, the amount of coolant added didn't feel correlated with the amount that was actually leaking.
To your point about air pockets being filled through the overflow tank, i don't think that's the case- iirc the coolant bladder refills the waterneck through a tube that attaches to the plastic bladder when taking into account the volumes here It'd be much easier for the system to draw in air before moving liquid. When you restart and run the car, sure, some of this air gets pushed to the radiator and escapes back into the bladder via steam port, some of it doesn't. Either way because its not a sealed system you still have a lower boiling point and temps go up faster than if not. . In the end you'll decide for yourself how comfortable you are running your car like this.
I should also like to point out the risks of running a car on track with dripping coolant. That stuff is as slippery as oil but spreads much easier on a track surface (its also flammable in mist form) . For the preservation of yourself and the other people that may be behind you on track, just fix it. Its easy enough and can be done for around under 200 bucks if you do it yourself. Just my .2 cents at least. Something to think about.
Last edited by illwillem; 10-07-20 at 01:41 PM.
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10-07-20, 02:12 PM
#36
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Coolant on track is very, very bad. A friend who was instructing at an HPDE died as a result of a Porsche 996 cooling system failure right in front of them causing the car to go off into a barrier. I didn't see it, but I heard the impact and unlike Hollywood, it was just a dull thud. Turned out to be a bad day for everyone.
I am a lot more concerned about performing this repair and finding out it's not a one time fix. Most elastomer sealants stay put and do their jobs when the metals are the same. Seems weird this is even an issue if it were done right at the factory.
I am a lot more concerned about performing this repair and finding out it's not a one time fix. Most elastomer sealants stay put and do their jobs when the metals are the same. Seems weird this is even an issue if it were done right at the factory.
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Joe Z (10-07-20)
10-07-20, 08:08 PM
#37
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@lobuxracer
In my concerns for potential repeat failure, I have had the engine cover off mostly over the last 4.5 years.. Since the repair was done on mine.. Approx 62k miles ago.
My leak was discovered at 117k miles / 6 years of driving since date of sale.
Soo far so good
Joe Z
In my concerns for potential repeat failure, I have had the engine cover off mostly over the last 4.5 years.. Since the repair was done on mine.. Approx 62k miles ago.
My leak was discovered at 117k miles / 6 years of driving since date of sale.
Soo far so good
Joe Z
10-07-20, 10:21 PM
#38
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And I've only removed mine for track days. I have minor leakage with similar mileage to your car. No evidence removing the noise reducing piece makes a difference in this failure.
10-08-20, 06:27 PM
#39
It would be relatively easy to laser cut a gasket, but I’m not knowledgeable enough or enough of a gambler to know what material to use.
I have the tools if someone has the knowledge about the appropriate material.
Then we need to do some double blind controlled trials.
I have the tools if someone has the knowledge about the appropriate material.
Then we need to do some double blind controlled trials.
10-30-20, 02:38 PM
#40
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I just did this last week, and have a few notes - first, the wire harness protector on top is just about impossible to remove without breaking it unless it is brand new. Order a new one before you start if you want to keep your wiring neat. You'll also need some zip ties and electrical tape to finish the install.
There is no need whatsoever to mess with the port injectors or their wiring - BUT - you absolutely should never put the manifold down on the injector tips unless you plan on buying new injectors. Definitely not my first choice.
There is no need to remove the direct injectors, but you will need to remove the wiring harness. There are gray and black connectors, gray on the left and black on the right. All the black connectors broke the lock tab. None of the gray connectors broke the lock tab. I had all eight in hand, so now I have eight gray connectors, four new and four old. When I removed the gray connectors they all made a noticeable click when the lock tab released from the injector body. Don't pull if you don't hear the click.
The fuel pressure sensor and knock sensor connectors did not suffer any issues, I just unplugged them and they were fine. I had expected they would break, so I had them on hand, but there were zero issues with these connectors.
The factory service manual tells you to lubricate the transfer tube o-rings with soapy water. I used a silicone o-ring grease. When you install the transfer tube you should be able to rotate it by hand. Not exactly easily, but not hard either. If it doesn't want to turn after installation, you're o-rings are pinched.
Do yourself a huge favor and test fit the transfer tube and valley plate BEFORE putting new sealant on the valley plate (FSM says glue goes on the plate, not the block) so you can familiarize yourself with getting it around the fuel rail connections at the back and getting the transfer tube in place (you should lube the o-rings first). If you do a test fit, you'll have a lot more confidence when time is short with the sealant. You have 3 minutes once you start applying the sealant if you use the recommended stuff.
On my engine, the valley plate had black sealant. The rest of the engine has gray sealant, so they didn't use the same stuff for the whole engine.
The air/oil separator case puked dirt into the open hole when I removed it. I cleaned it up before putting the new seals in place and installing the case. I used the silicone grease on the case when I installed it too.
Lots of PITA fastener tricks to get all the necessary bolts out. None difficult, just a PITA to get to.
Happy to have a full reservoir again, and know it's not leaking, at least for now...
There is no need whatsoever to mess with the port injectors or their wiring - BUT - you absolutely should never put the manifold down on the injector tips unless you plan on buying new injectors. Definitely not my first choice.
There is no need to remove the direct injectors, but you will need to remove the wiring harness. There are gray and black connectors, gray on the left and black on the right. All the black connectors broke the lock tab. None of the gray connectors broke the lock tab. I had all eight in hand, so now I have eight gray connectors, four new and four old. When I removed the gray connectors they all made a noticeable click when the lock tab released from the injector body. Don't pull if you don't hear the click.
The fuel pressure sensor and knock sensor connectors did not suffer any issues, I just unplugged them and they were fine. I had expected they would break, so I had them on hand, but there were zero issues with these connectors.
The factory service manual tells you to lubricate the transfer tube o-rings with soapy water. I used a silicone o-ring grease. When you install the transfer tube you should be able to rotate it by hand. Not exactly easily, but not hard either. If it doesn't want to turn after installation, you're o-rings are pinched.
Do yourself a huge favor and test fit the transfer tube and valley plate BEFORE putting new sealant on the valley plate (FSM says glue goes on the plate, not the block) so you can familiarize yourself with getting it around the fuel rail connections at the back and getting the transfer tube in place (you should lube the o-rings first). If you do a test fit, you'll have a lot more confidence when time is short with the sealant. You have 3 minutes once you start applying the sealant if you use the recommended stuff.
On my engine, the valley plate had black sealant. The rest of the engine has gray sealant, so they didn't use the same stuff for the whole engine.
The air/oil separator case puked dirt into the open hole when I removed it. I cleaned it up before putting the new seals in place and installing the case. I used the silicone grease on the case when I installed it too.
Lots of PITA fastener tricks to get all the necessary bolts out. None difficult, just a PITA to get to.
Happy to have a full reservoir again, and know it's not leaking, at least for now...
10-30-20, 02:54 PM
#41
Driver School Candidate
I just did this last week, and have a few notes - first, the wire harness protector on top is just about impossible to remove without breaking it unless it is brand new. Order a new one before you start if you want to keep your wiring neat. You'll also need some zip ties and electrical tape to finish the install.
There is no need whatsoever to mess with the port injectors or their wiring - BUT - you absolutely should never put the manifold down on the injector tips unless you plan on buying new injectors. Definitely not my first choice.
There is no need to remove the direct injectors, but you will need to remove the wiring harness. There are gray and black connectors, gray on the left and black on the right. All the black connectors broke the lock tab. None of the gray connectors broke the lock tab. I had all eight in hand, so now I have eight gray connectors, four new and four old. When I removed the gray connectors they all made a noticeable click when the lock tab released from the injector body. Don't pull if you don't hear the click.
The fuel pressure sensor and knock sensor connectors did not suffer any issues, I just unplugged them and they were fine. I had expected they would break, so I had them on hand, but there were zero issues with these connectors.
The factory service manual tells you to lubricate the transfer tube o-rings with soapy water. I used a silicone o-ring grease. When you install the transfer tube you should be able to rotate it by hand. Not exactly easily, but not hard either. If it doesn't want to turn after installation, you're o-rings are pinched.
Do yourself a huge favor and test fit the transfer tube and valley plate BEFORE putting new sealant on the valley plate (FSM says glue goes on the plate, not the block) so you can familiarize yourself with getting it around the fuel rail connections at the back and getting the transfer tube in place (you should lube the o-rings first). If you do a test fit, you'll have a lot more confidence when time is short with the sealant. You have 3 minutes once you start applying the sealant if you use the recommended stuff.
On my engine, the valley plate had black sealant. The rest of the engine has gray sealant, so they didn't use the same stuff for the whole engine.
The air/oil separator case puked dirt into the open hole when I removed it. I cleaned it up before putting the new seals in place and installing the case. I used the silicone grease on the case when I installed it too.
Lots of PITA fastener tricks to get all the necessary bolts out. None difficult, just a PITA to get to.
Happy to have a full reservoir again, and know it's not leaking, at least for now...
There is no need whatsoever to mess with the port injectors or their wiring - BUT - you absolutely should never put the manifold down on the injector tips unless you plan on buying new injectors. Definitely not my first choice.
There is no need to remove the direct injectors, but you will need to remove the wiring harness. There are gray and black connectors, gray on the left and black on the right. All the black connectors broke the lock tab. None of the gray connectors broke the lock tab. I had all eight in hand, so now I have eight gray connectors, four new and four old. When I removed the gray connectors they all made a noticeable click when the lock tab released from the injector body. Don't pull if you don't hear the click.
The fuel pressure sensor and knock sensor connectors did not suffer any issues, I just unplugged them and they were fine. I had expected they would break, so I had them on hand, but there were zero issues with these connectors.
The factory service manual tells you to lubricate the transfer tube o-rings with soapy water. I used a silicone o-ring grease. When you install the transfer tube you should be able to rotate it by hand. Not exactly easily, but not hard either. If it doesn't want to turn after installation, you're o-rings are pinched.
Do yourself a huge favor and test fit the transfer tube and valley plate BEFORE putting new sealant on the valley plate (FSM says glue goes on the plate, not the block) so you can familiarize yourself with getting it around the fuel rail connections at the back and getting the transfer tube in place (you should lube the o-rings first). If you do a test fit, you'll have a lot more confidence when time is short with the sealant. You have 3 minutes once you start applying the sealant if you use the recommended stuff.
On my engine, the valley plate had black sealant. The rest of the engine has gray sealant, so they didn't use the same stuff for the whole engine.
The air/oil separator case puked dirt into the open hole when I removed it. I cleaned it up before putting the new seals in place and installing the case. I used the silicone grease on the case when I installed it too.
Lots of PITA fastener tricks to get all the necessary bolts out. None difficult, just a PITA to get to.
Happy to have a full reservoir again, and know it's not leaking, at least for now...
10-31-20, 12:31 AM
#42
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Possible, but not possible to confirm by visual inspection. It looks the same as the regular black oil pan sealant.
10-31-20, 09:29 AM
#43
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Same applies to the LS460 / GX460 -- and there are plenty more of those on the road than IS F's
Time & Miles makes me wonder which is the cause or improper fitment or application at factory that eventually fails.
Joe Z
Last edited by Joe Z; 10-31-20 at 09:32 AM.
10-04-21, 09:59 PM
#44
Parts list
So I've decided to do this and pretty much replace all the hoses and orings I can while I'm under there, also replacing Radiator (rr racing combo) while I'm at it.
Here's everything I'm getting minus coolant and radiator hoses (coming with rr racing combo) and minus injectors [crossing fingers]
I know it's over kill but I just don't want to have to go back in for a while.
2009 IsF
HOSE - 1626138040
BYPASS HOSE- 1628238060
WATER INLET HOUSING GASKET- 1632538020
(2x) WATER OUTLET GASKET- 1634138030
(32x) FUEL INJECTOR SEAL - 2325531010
(2x) FUEL PUMP INSULATOR- 2391546011
WATER PUMP- 1610039506
VACUUM HOSE - 1730838010
(2x) GASKET - 2322438010
(8x) INJECTOR INSULATOR - 2329131011
(2x) HOSE - 9955630100
(2x) RING - 9676135035
(8x) RING - 9030106017
PROTECTOR - 8281730L50
HOSE, VENTILATION- 1226138060
WATER INLET W/ THERMOSTAT- 160310S010
HOSE VENTILATION NO.3 - 1226338030
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.8 - 1629638030
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.2- 1626438060
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.9- 16269738030
HOSE, VENTILATION NO.2 - 1226238040
(2x) GASKET, INTAKE MANIFOLD NO.1- 1717738040
THROTTLE GASKET- 2227138020
WIRE, ENGINE NO.8- 8212753010
HOSE, FUEL VAPOR FEED- 2382938050
PROTECTOR- 8281730L40
(16x) O RING (FUEL INJECTOR)- 9030111029
WIRE, ENGINE - 8212653010
HOSE, FUEL VAPOR FEED NO.2- 2382738040
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.4- 1628138090
SEALANT- 08826-00100-WA
Here's everything I'm getting minus coolant and radiator hoses (coming with rr racing combo) and minus injectors [crossing fingers]
I know it's over kill but I just don't want to have to go back in for a while.
2009 IsF
HOSE - 1626138040
BYPASS HOSE- 1628238060
WATER INLET HOUSING GASKET- 1632538020
(2x) WATER OUTLET GASKET- 1634138030
(32x) FUEL INJECTOR SEAL - 2325531010
(2x) FUEL PUMP INSULATOR- 2391546011
WATER PUMP- 1610039506
VACUUM HOSE - 1730838010
(2x) GASKET - 2322438010
(8x) INJECTOR INSULATOR - 2329131011
(2x) HOSE - 9955630100
(2x) RING - 9676135035
(8x) RING - 9030106017
PROTECTOR - 8281730L50
HOSE, VENTILATION- 1226138060
WATER INLET W/ THERMOSTAT- 160310S010
HOSE VENTILATION NO.3 - 1226338030
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.8 - 1629638030
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.2- 1626438060
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.9- 16269738030
HOSE, VENTILATION NO.2 - 1226238040
(2x) GASKET, INTAKE MANIFOLD NO.1- 1717738040
THROTTLE GASKET- 2227138020
WIRE, ENGINE NO.8- 8212753010
HOSE, FUEL VAPOR FEED- 2382938050
PROTECTOR- 8281730L40
(16x) O RING (FUEL INJECTOR)- 9030111029
WIRE, ENGINE - 8212653010
HOSE, FUEL VAPOR FEED NO.2- 2382738040
HOSE, WATER BY-PASS NO.4- 1628138090
SEALANT- 08826-00100-WA
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10-04-21, 11:44 PM
#45
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If I were you, I wouldn't mess with the injectors at all. There's zero need to remove them unless the body breaks when you remove the connector, and I would suggest it's a bad idea unless you plan to buy new injectors too (that will be some serious outlay). There is no need at all to disconnect any of the low pressure injectors or remove them. There is no need at all to remove any direct injectors unless you break them when you disconnect the harness, and that only happens if you manhandle them. Mine all disconnected without any issues and I broke the retaining clip on one injector connector. There's also no need to remove the throttlebody at all, so no gasket necessary. No need to buy wire harnesses either. Just the connector bodies to fix any that break. Seriously, there's nothing to gain and a whole lot to lighten your wallet with these pieces.