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To the people who like German brands, I assume you have had good experiences with them. I was just not so lucky.
If you notice in nearly all the posts where the chaps who like German cars and who have had good experience with them drive 'Newer' German cars, as they historically don't age nearly as well as Toyota/Lexus
Hello winterturb, I wouldn't buy a ten year old car unless it was with the expectation of doing some restoration work to it. .... For performance machines like the F, M and AMG (not to mention Ferrari, etc.) if buying used one has to be prepared, as in having some cash on hand, as the higher the mileage the more potential for problems arising. And yes, even on the ISF so it pays to also have mechanical know how too. However, I would venture to say that most of these cars are well cared for but even so things happen as they are all full of electronics and moving parts that do wear with time and mileage.
Love your vehicle choices and hope you enjoy the wagon AMG, but this forum and the current ISF community is alive mainly by people who have a 6-12 year old ISF, often with over 90k miles and well past warranty. ISF does have minor reliability concerns, but even with the worry of valley plate fix or cracked headers, it's still a more reliable car than those in the same class/age. OP asked what is modern competition for the F, for the $20-40k price there are many options, but not many that are <2 years old.
Our local Audi dealership has a tech that replaces ECUs full time. He said that’s pretty much all he does. He is good friends with the Lexus master tech that I associate with regularly. The Lexus tech said they don’t have a guy that replaces ECUs full time. Maybe I have had bad fortune, but all my German car ownership and mechanical experiences were frustrating, which includes 2 VWs, a 5 series BMW, and an audi S4.
I know someone who swears by German reliability. I swear by japanese reliability. I’ll admit I’m a huge Lexus fanboy, and don’t plan to change. But I got that way by owning almost every brand available, with well over 30 cars in prior ownership.
My then 8 year old IS350 sold me. It looked and functioned as a new car. It’s now 12, and still functions and looks like a new car, minus some rock chips from a poor hood aftermarket paint job. I couldn’t believe how nice and quick it was for the price. It led me to my isf. I will keep both for as long as possible.
Reliability and a car that ages well to me is the most important aspects. I tend to make long term decisions. This is just my two cents from my personal experiences.
To the people who like German brands, I assume you have had good experiences with them. I was just not so lucky.
I agree. I think German cars are great to lease, but not to own out of warranty. For every 1 person that has no issues or minimal issues, there are 5-10 out there with issues that have either left them stranded on the side of the road or costs thousands of dollars to fix, or both.
Personally, I love the E60 M5. The F1 inspired v10 revving to over 8k is magical! However, due to the number of expensive fixes, and the fact that I would like to remain married to my wonderful wife and not have her hate me, I decided to buy the sensible option: the ISF. Yes, it has issues. But none that pertain to the engine/drivetrain grenading itself. Sure, people will argue that this BMW rod bearing issue is due to poor maintenance, not letting the engine warm up, etc. However, I'm sure there are those who do not treat the ISF kindly; however, there are no such issues, especially on cars below 60k miles.
And even cars that are under warranty; I simply don't have the time to deal with needing to take a car in all often to the dealer for issues. I bought my car to drive it, and drive it for a long time. Why can't the manufacturer work out the issues (and I mean serious issues that will leave you stranded etc) and sell me a ready and reliable vehicle? Why should I be the development engineer?
Lexus builds cars with a different philosophy than other German brands, Porsche exempted IMO.
Lexus builds cars with a different philosophy than other German brands, Porsche exempted IMO.
Oh believe me Porsche are not exempt, I come from a background of them and in touch with lots of forums and friends that own/owned them. Many different varying issues on most of them, especially the newer cars, I wouldn't own one outside of OEM warranty.
Just to clarify, my family and I were all Toyota and Lexus at one time. our two sons both had Pre-runners and our youngest still has his. In fact my wife still has her 2009 Venza which she really likes. I also have the first new vehicle I ever purchased; a 2002 Tundra SR5 Extended cab with the 4.7L V-8 4X4. It's lifted with 285/75/16s, a shell with bedrug and it's still running great. So, any issues with these? Yes:
Venza required a new alternator and electric steering unit at <73k miles. $3k later all is well.
Tundra required 4 new oxygen sensors, new front axles (torn boots) within the last 3k miles. I chose to replaced the axles rather than just the boots as it made sense to me to have all new parts. Cost for these items was about $1.6K.
Those O2 sensors are an expected expense though and at about 112k miles for these items I'm not complaining. But it does prove my point that if one buys used be prepared with a backup fund to fix stuff regardless of what make of car or truck it is even if it's CPO.
I do apologize to the OP for taking your thread off track but I have enjoyed reading all of the responses and completely understand the loyalty to Toyota and Lexus. I know that the ISF could have been introduced with 450 BHP easily but because they want the car to be ultra reliable for a very long time they pulled it back some. I also think that a used ISF will most likely be more reliable and cost probably less to get in to top shape than other performance cars.
Funny thing is I rarely see new performance cars and haven't seen an ISF in literally years. I live in San Clemente, CA and what I do see proliferating is Tesla machines. But that's a thread for another time. Anyway, take care everyone and have a great time with your car(s).
As you see above, it depends on the review. The majority of us think the AMG is inferior, and your NOT buying the AMG, although it sounds like you should.
Reliability is inseparable from a cars overall rating and value. An AMG hands down cannot compare to an ISF, for the simple fact that someone can buy an ISF and know it will start and get them where they are going every single day. My Buddies DSM can do everything faster than my ISF when it runs, but its ALWAYS broken.
The Smoking Tire did a review and said something notable. He said people ask him if they should buy a used M3 or AMG, and he says that they need to keep thousands put back at all times for repairs if they do (I think he specifically said 5k). But with an ISF, you don’t have to worry about that. I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the point that he made.
That’s why an AMG doesn’t compare. It can do all the fun stuff an ISF can do, but if it’s not easy to maintain and reliable, it simply isn’t as good. It’s not fan boy mentality, it’s recognition of a superior design, with definitive proof because of the numerous high mileage ISFs running around with only basic maintenance. If something does something well for a short period of time and then breaks, it’s inferior to a vehicle that does it and never breaks.
If you think the AMG is superior, then buy one. I bet you still pick an ISF over an AMG.
Your issues seem atypical. Mine has needed oil and fuel. It had the valley plate repaired by the dealership under the first owner. I’ve also seen an ISF with just headers, exhaust, and E30 make 427 whp, which is about what FBO ISFs make. Does the AMG gain a lot from tuning? It doesn’t seem like Lexus left much on the table there for us to unlock.
Funny enough I bought a 12 C63 AMG P31 coupe a couple months after this post, so I've had it for sometime now. All of 2020 I was looking to buy an ISF, mainly a 11+ due to the horrible suspension from pre 11 and lsd, but ended up in a C63. I always thought I'd be in the Lexus family, but there's just no matching AMG power and sound. Doing objective car shopping, the refreshed w204 C63 is faster, handles better, and has that AMG sound. Tuned with headers on pump gas the C63 puts down 490 whp, but stock it's at 481/507 hp vs 416 hp, so it's got the numbers edge no matter how you put it. 0-60 for either car, 3.7 vs 4.7 in favour of the C63 from Car and Driver numbers, that's exactly apparent when you drive these cars to objectively compare them. There's also no other v8 that produces the glorious exhaust that comes from the 6.2 M156, it's on the same pedestal with the LFA and Carrera GT V10s. I have done the car shopping with initial bias to the ISF, and yet I've landed on the C63 since it's just a better car in every way except reliability. If you're willing to shell out the money for the maintenance, the C63 is the way to go and that's coming from a Lexus fanboy.
Funny enough I bought a 12 C63 AMG P31 coupe a couple months after this post, so I've had it for sometime now. All of 2020 I was looking to buy an ISF, mainly a 11+ due to the horrible suspension from pre 11 and lsd, but ended up in a C63. I always thought I'd be in the Lexus family, but there's just no matching AMG power and sound. Doing objective car shopping, the refreshed w204 C63 is faster, handles better, and has that AMG sound. Tuned with headers on pump gas the C63 puts down 490 whp, but stock it's at 481/507 hp vs 416 hp, so it's got the numbers edge no matter how you put it. 0-60 for either car, 3.7 vs 4.7 in favour of the C63 from Car and Driver numbers, that's exactly apparent when you drive these cars to objectively compare them. There's also no other v8 that produces the glorious exhaust that comes from the 6.2 M156, it's on the same pedestal with the LFA and Carrera GT V10s. I have done the car shopping with initial bias to the ISF, and yet I've landed on the C63 since it's just a better car in every way except reliability. If you're willing to shell out the money for the maintenance, the C63 is the way to go and that's coming from a Lexus fanboy.
I think thats a stretch comparing the 6.2 in the same sentence with the LFA and Carrera GT v10. The M156 is a very nice sounding engine, but If I had to pick a euro car (direct competitor to the this generation of V8 sedan/coupes) I would pick the S65 (E90 M3) hands down over the Benz. 4 liter, high revving v8 with equal length headers and titanium exhaust is just something to appreciate in its own, low-end torqueless or not lol. It (S65) also won international engine of the year from 08-12 if Im not mistaken.
That being said, most of what you have said is pretty opiniated, I dont see any C63's (from this era) on the track as much as I do ISF and E90 M3's. So to say one is better than the other is purely subjective.
Everybody is chasing horsepower and 1/4 times as a basis for what is a "fast" car. Yeah car and driver says one thing, motor trend says another, but dont forget that driver mod/experience is the biggest factor in what makes a car "fast"
Funny enough I bought a 12 C63 AMG P31 coupe a couple months after this post, so I've had it for sometime now. All of 2020 I was looking to buy an ISF, mainly a 11+ due to the horrible suspension from pre 11 and lsd, but ended up in a C63. I always thought I'd be in the Lexus family, but there's just no matching AMG power and sound. Doing objective car shopping, the refreshed w204 C63 is faster, handles better, and has that AMG sound. Tuned with headers on pump gas the C63 puts down 490 whp, but stock it's at 481/507 hp vs 416 hp, so it's got the numbers edge no matter how you put it. 0-60 for either car, 3.7 vs 4.7 in favour of the C63 from Car and Driver numbers, that's exactly apparent when you drive these cars to objectively compare them. There's also no other v8 that produces the glorious exhaust that comes from the 6.2 M156, it's on the same pedestal with the LFA and Carrera GT V10s. I have done the car shopping with initial bias to the ISF, and yet I've landed on the C63 since it's just a better car in every way except reliability. If you're willing to shell out the money for the maintenance, the C63 is the way to go and that's coming from a Lexus fanboy.
Beautiful car and a great choice. I think of all the Germans Japanese and Americans the C63 is the best sports sedan if only for my preference of raw power and sound.
I would say that the majority of people buy a Lexus due to low cost of ownership be it depreciation or repairs or maintenance. That’s half the reason I bought my 08 in 2016 and later stayed with a 12 in 2019. High mile commute and a want for sleeper power limits your options. And not to be a penny pinching debbie downer, but both are twofold for the ISF if you account for MPG and lower insurance/repairs/modifications. Yet with a max NA of 440whp or so, it’s still no slouch, and just a H/E ISF is capable of edging out even a newer C63.
That’s really the best part of the car at this point and an ironic answer to the OP’s question of modern F competition. It’s that with 2-3 minor mods and a minimal budget, the ISF is still able to compete with modern cars.
Everybody is chasing horsepower and 1/4 times as a basis for what is a "fast" car. Yeah car and driver says one thing, motor trend says another, but dont forget that driver mod/experience is the biggest factor in what makes a car "fast".
I don’t even look at 0-60 and 1/4 times anymore for ICE cars, when EVs are seeing below 2/10 seconds, respectively. The most important part of ICE at this point, to me at least, is how it feels and handles. If I want straight line speed, I wouldn’t even look at ICE these days. But an EV can’t deliver the sort of tactile, visceral feel that our cars do. I’ve never driven a modern AMG, but have been warned they are a bit numb in comparison.
I don’t even look at 0-60 and 1/4 times anymore for ICE cars, when EVs are seeing below 2/10 seconds, respectively. The most important part of ICE at this point, to me at least, is how it feels and handles. If I want straight line speed, I wouldn’t even look at ICE these days. But an EV can’t deliver the sort of tactile, visceral feel that our cars do. I’ve never driven a modern AMG, but have been warned they are a bit numb in comparison.
I agree. EV is the future for pure performance, but there is no "feel" to it as you described. I drove a Model S P85 and yeah that acceleration is hard to match, but thats kinda where it stops.
I think what is happening to modern age ICE cars is what happened to the 60s-70's classic muscle cars of the past. Yeah sure the old muscle cars have a hard time competing with modern day performance, but there is a vibe to driving one of those cars.
I think what is happening to modern age ICE cars is what happened to the 60s-70's classic muscle cars of the past. Yeah sure the old muscle cars have a hard time competing with modern day performance, but there is a vibe to driving one of those cars.
That is a good parallel, especially for the ones that don’t feel numb.
If you'd actually driven one of those "classic" muscle cars, you might not think so highly of them. They were not known for handling unless you got a Shelby, and even those were primitive handling cars by today's standards. Never forget, they were designed around the tires available in their day. Those tires are complete rubbish compared to what we now have.
I think thats a stretch comparing the 6.2 in the same sentence with the LFA and Carrera GT v10. The M156 is a very nice sounding engine, but If I had to pick a euro car (direct competitor to the this generation of V8 sedan/coupes) I would pick the S65 (E90 M3) hands down over the Benz. 4 liter, high revving v8 with equal length headers and titanium exhaust is just something to appreciate in its own, low-end torqueless or not lol.
I would argue that my Novel IS F sounds better than the S65 w/EL headers. My opinion though...
09-16-20, 10:05 AM
