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Yeah these guys didn't really seem to know what they're doing even though their web site claims all kinds of things. I'll keep looking for a competent shop. Thanks for all the help on this.
I've been doing hot cars for about 40 years and over time I started to realize just how important having a car truly square is. Having the wheel base the same front to rear with a proper front wheel alignment is everything.
When I was drag racing, it wasn't necessarily how much power you had, but if you could keep the front wheels straight all the way down the strip. This included some pretty violent wheel stands. Wheels had to stay straight.
This was the reason I jumped right on the lower control arm bushings from Figs Engineering.
I've also noticed that the wheel alignment, when done correctly, is done with hand tools by old guys. Do square the sub frame before you do anything.
I've been doing hot cars for about 40 years and over time I started to realize just how important having a car truly square is. Having the wheel base the same front to rear with a proper front wheel alignment is everything.
When I was drag racing, it wasn't necessarily how much power you had, but if you could keep the front wheels straight all the way down the strip. This included some pretty violent wheel stands. Wheels had to stay straight.
This was the reason I jumped right on the lower control arm bushings from Figs Engineering.
I've also noticed that the wheel alignment, when done correctly, is done with hand tools by old guys. Do square the sub frame before you do anything.
Loren
You can say the exact same thing for circle track and road racing. Power without control is nothing. Car set up is what separates first from second and second from all others. Bold for emphasis above because it can't be understated how important this is to delivering confidence when driving no matter straight line or curvy mountain road.
Bent sunroof isn't causing this problem. It's a common problem with subframes like ours. A good alignment shop should be able to fix this by moving the subframe. It's clearly not square with the chassis centerline. While they're at it, have them balance left/right to get even camber on both sides of the front.
Whats involved in moving the subframe to square it all up, is it a big job? My alignment is out as well and would like to ask these questions with eyes wide open. What type of shop would know how to do this?
TIA
Whats involved in moving the subframe to square it all up, is it a big job? My alignment is out as well and would like to ask these questions with eyes wide open. What type of shop would know how to do this?
TIA
I have booked it in with the same shop that installed my coilovers as the alignment was pretty square on the stock suspension prior to coilover install.
Whats involved in moving the subframe to square it all up, is it a big job? My alignment is out as well and would like to ask these questions with eyes wide open. What type of shop would know how to do this?
TIA
There are bolts attaching the subframe to the chassis. 4 major ones and 4 minor ones. They all need to be loosened up just enough to move the subframe into position, then tightened to torque spec while checking for unwanted movement. I've been thinking about how to make a jig to do this, but it would necessarily be a pretty large piece of metal going across the front LCA bushings with a pointer running toward the differential, and about 5 feet long to allow for easy determination of where the subframe centerline is relative to the chassis centerline.
There are bolts attaching the subframe to the chassis. 4 major ones and 4 minor ones. They all need to be loosened up just enough to move the subframe into position, then tightened to torque spec while checking for unwanted movement. I've been thinking about how to make a jig to do this, but it would necessarily be a pretty large piece of metal going across the front LCA bushings with a pointer running toward the differential, and about 5 feet long to allow for easy determination of where the subframe centerline is relative to the chassis centerline.
Wow thank you, it's very much appreciated.
Is it likely they did something to pull it out of square when they installed the new coilovers? It was close to square before coilovers.
Wow thank you, it's very much appreciated.
Is it likely they did something to pull it out of square when they installed the new coilovers? It was close to square before coilovers.
No but it's likely they didn't loosen all the bolts holding rubber bushings, so you've got phantom spring action upsetting the alignment. If you have rubber bushings, the first thing to do is loosen the bolts holding them, get the car set to normal ride height (which will undoubtedly be different if you are changing shocks and springs), then retighten those bolts. I usually do this by raising the corner with a jack while the car is level on four jackstands only because I don't have an easy way to do this with the wheels on which would be the ideal setting. Any time you see someone prying on a suspension part to install a shock/spring, you know they don't really know what they're doing. The suspension should be completely loose and the bushings retightened with the suspension loaded at normal ride height. This needs to be done any time you change the ride height (adjusting spring preload on coilovers).
If you have polyurethane bushings or solid bushings, none of this matters. But OEM rubber bushings definitely need this or they will wear prematurely, and some times completely fail causing a very dangerous situation for everyone in the car.
No but it's likely they didn't loosen all the bolts holding rubber bushings, so you've got phantom spring action upsetting the alignment. If you have rubber bushings, the first thing to do is loosen the bolts holding them, get the car set to normal ride height (which will undoubtedly be different if you are changing shocks and springs), then retighten those bolts. I usually do this by raising the corner with a jack while the car is level on four jackstands only because I don't have an easy way to do this with the wheels on which would be the ideal setting. Any time you see someone prying on a suspension part to install a shock/spring, you know they don't really know what they're doing. The suspension should be completely loose and the bushings retightened with the suspension loaded at normal ride height. This needs to be done any time you change the ride height (adjusting spring preload on coilovers).
If you have polyurethane bushings or solid bushings, none of this matters. But OEM rubber bushings definitely need this or they will wear prematurely, and some times completely fail causing a very dangerous situation for everyone in the car.
Got it thank you, I've emailed them all of this, I'm a bit concerned they're not capable of doing this correctly.
So your alignment sheet is a dead giveaway for they only adjusted toe. The left right camber is horrible. 0.7 degrees difference between left and right makes it crystal clear your subframe isn't set properly on the chassis. You'd like your car even more if you can find someone who will solve this problem. You've still got a 1.1 inch wheelbase difference as well. They didn't hurt you, but they sure don't know much about aligning a car properly.
My rear camber difference is worse than MMI's Right 2.14', left 1.20'
Car is going on Monday and hopefully they can correct it by adjusting the subframe..
Whats the best toe front & rear for optimal handling? Keep in mind we drive on the other side of the road and we have more cambered roads.
Thanks for your input Lance.
EDIT; l currently have toe at -0.5 front & +0.9 rear, car seems to handle pretty well with this toe but open to suggestions to possibly further improve.
The toe looks great. I'd be happy with those numbers. Should handle well and not wear tires too badly if you have an aftermarket LCA bushing at the back. If you don't, you might have wear problems in the front. The big squishy OEM bushing allows a lot of toe out under braking and causes significant inside edge wear.
The toe looks great. I'd be happy with those numbers. Should handle well and not wear tires too badly if you have an aftermarket LCA bushing at the back. If you don't, you might have wear problems in the front. The big squishy OEM bushing allows a lot of toe out under braking and causes significant inside edge wear.
Great thanks.
I have 90 after market bushes LCA rear at front end.
Great thanks.
I have 90 after market bushes LCA rear at front end.
Slowlane, any update on this? Was your shop able to correct your camber? How difficult/expensive was it? I'm still looking around my area for a shop that can do this for me. Seems not many places want to touch the subframes.
Slowlane, any update on this? Was your shop able to correct your camber? How difficult/expensive was it? I'm still looking around my area for a shop that can do this for me. Seems not many places want to touch the subframes.
We put it back on the alignment machine and specs were a lot better and more even all around so we decided to leave it. Car seems to handle well.
03-19-21, 01:18 AM
