When is Mark Levinson going to start using DVD-A and/or SACD?
03-29-04, 02:24 PM
#1
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When is Mark Levinson going to start using DVD-A and/or SACD?
I heard a demo of a DVD-A disc in the 2004 Acura TL with the Panasonic-made 5.1 surround sound system. It absolutely blew the Nakamichi in my 99 GS400 away in almost any and every regard including clarity, imaging, and tightness of bass. Just about the only thing it wasn't quite as good at was pure low-end bass... which was still clearer in the TL, just not as heavy hitting, which is really a limitation of the speakers in the TL, not of the DVD-A.
What was even more amazing was that when the dealer switched in a regular CD, the system in the TL didn't sound very impressive at all... not even close to my Nakamichi. So the DVD-A really made that much of a difference!
I think the Levinson sound systems would benefit even more from DVD-A and/or SACD, as it'll produce the higher resolution and 6 discreet channels of audio much better than the drivers/amp in the TL.
I realize that DVD-A is the brainchild of Panasonic, and SACD is the brainchild of Sony, and thus it's a bit more of a stretch to find such a new technology in Levinson stereos since they are affiliated with neither of the two... but still... but as much money as they put into their systems, they can pay the extra for the licensing fees and product development cost.
I even wrote an email to Levinson's automotive consumer affairs division... but never heard a response.
What was even more amazing was that when the dealer switched in a regular CD, the system in the TL didn't sound very impressive at all... not even close to my Nakamichi. So the DVD-A really made that much of a difference!
I think the Levinson sound systems would benefit even more from DVD-A and/or SACD, as it'll produce the higher resolution and 6 discreet channels of audio much better than the drivers/amp in the TL.
I realize that DVD-A is the brainchild of Panasonic, and SACD is the brainchild of Sony, and thus it's a bit more of a stretch to find such a new technology in Levinson stereos since they are affiliated with neither of the two... but still... but as much money as they put into their systems, they can pay the extra for the licensing fees and product development cost.
I even wrote an email to Levinson's automotive consumer affairs division... but never heard a response.
03-29-04, 03:27 PM
#2
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Going to open up a can of worms here...
If they made a player that had BOTH DVD-A and SACD, it would be ideal, but imagine the liscensing nightmares that the company would have to go through! I've listened to both SACD versus a regular CD, even did a head to head a/b comparison of a stock SACD player (Sony 777ES) versus a modified CD player (Denon 560 w/mods). End result was like Mike Tyson (sacd) versus Bruce Lee (modded CD). Lee won the comparo, and this was with 3 other salespeople listening as well as some customers. They still couldn't believe that a 500 dollar player just wiped the floor with a nearly 3000 dollar player.
The formats themselves won't guarantee listening quality. There are bad recordings in both formats, and it sometimes makes you wonder why you shelled out 20 bucks for the SACD version. SACD has to go through a proprietary Sony VC filter and a faster clock, but after that, it's all standard issue stuff. Most manufacturers will stick with a standard crystal oscillator, standard "just makes it" power supply and standard op amps (buffer to output). One of the very few SACD players that I was impressed with is the Sony SCD-1, a Class A+ Stereophile rated component. They did something with that player (at nearly 5 grand MSRP it had better be good!) that made the sound more coherent and more "there", if you will. Take a cheapie SACD player and a really good CD player, compare them a/b/a, then tell me who wins. More than likely the very good CD player.
Now all things being equal, I'd still go for the SACD/DVD-A format, but not by too much. Yes, there is extra detail that's floating around, there is a hgher sampling rate, but it's still, at least to me, not THAT much in gain. Most of the DVD-A stuff has been remastered (hopefully!) as well as the SACD, but some make you wonder why even bother at all.
My guess with the Acura, different tuning since it's going through a different filter for the DVD-A. Also, since the DVD-A is driving each one of the speakers as "discrete", the imaging will be better as long as the studio didn't go too nuts on the processing. More ambience. Less "flatness". Perhaps a REALLY good job of "rear fill" with the DVD-A/SACD, if you will?
Still, I'd agree with you. If Lexus put in a DVD-A or a SACD (or both!) into their system, it would sound better. That is, it's going to sound as good as a "stock" system can, whatever that level may be. Just wait until the guys and gals here on the board start putting in DVD-A/SACD into their rides with aftermarket or modified components.
Percy
If they made a player that had BOTH DVD-A and SACD, it would be ideal, but imagine the liscensing nightmares that the company would have to go through! I've listened to both SACD versus a regular CD, even did a head to head a/b comparison of a stock SACD player (Sony 777ES) versus a modified CD player (Denon 560 w/mods). End result was like Mike Tyson (sacd) versus Bruce Lee (modded CD). Lee won the comparo, and this was with 3 other salespeople listening as well as some customers. They still couldn't believe that a 500 dollar player just wiped the floor with a nearly 3000 dollar player.
The formats themselves won't guarantee listening quality. There are bad recordings in both formats, and it sometimes makes you wonder why you shelled out 20 bucks for the SACD version. SACD has to go through a proprietary Sony VC filter and a faster clock, but after that, it's all standard issue stuff. Most manufacturers will stick with a standard crystal oscillator, standard "just makes it" power supply and standard op amps (buffer to output). One of the very few SACD players that I was impressed with is the Sony SCD-1, a Class A+ Stereophile rated component. They did something with that player (at nearly 5 grand MSRP it had better be good!) that made the sound more coherent and more "there", if you will. Take a cheapie SACD player and a really good CD player, compare them a/b/a, then tell me who wins. More than likely the very good CD player.
Now all things being equal, I'd still go for the SACD/DVD-A format, but not by too much. Yes, there is extra detail that's floating around, there is a hgher sampling rate, but it's still, at least to me, not THAT much in gain. Most of the DVD-A stuff has been remastered (hopefully!) as well as the SACD, but some make you wonder why even bother at all.
My guess with the Acura, different tuning since it's going through a different filter for the DVD-A. Also, since the DVD-A is driving each one of the speakers as "discrete", the imaging will be better as long as the studio didn't go too nuts on the processing. More ambience. Less "flatness". Perhaps a REALLY good job of "rear fill" with the DVD-A/SACD, if you will?
Still, I'd agree with you. If Lexus put in a DVD-A or a SACD (or both!) into their system, it would sound better. That is, it's going to sound as good as a "stock" system can, whatever that level may be. Just wait until the guys and gals here on the board start putting in DVD-A/SACD into their rides with aftermarket or modified components.
Percy
03-29-04, 03:56 PM
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Interesting you should ask! In an independent (although paid for by Lexus) phone survey I took two months ago I was asked a number of questions about listening to music in my LS430. The questions ranged from the type of music I enjoyed to the preferred format AM/FM, Satellite radio, SACD, DVD-A and even HDRadio. Rate the ML system for highs, mids and lows in scale of 1-10 etc. Often asking me to compare it to my home system. I sure let them know the need for DVD-A and/or SACD format playback by giving them both 10's. They really pressed me on HDRadio and if that would interest me, but I gave it lower marks. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the feedback and if Lexus makes a few real changes in the ML system.
Last edited by LS007; 03-29-04 at 04:00 PM.
03-29-04, 05:57 PM
#4
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Originally posted by Percy
Going to open up a can of worms here...
If they made a player that had BOTH DVD-A and SACD, it would be ideal, but imagine the liscensing nightmares that the company would have to go through! I've listened to both SACD versus a regular CD, even did a head to head a/b comparison of a stock SACD player (Sony 777ES) versus a modified CD player (Denon 560 w/mods). End result was like Mike Tyson (sacd) versus Bruce Lee (modded CD). Lee won the comparo, and this was with 3 other salespeople listening as well as some customers. They still couldn't believe that a 500 dollar player just wiped the floor with a nearly 3000 dollar player.
The formats themselves won't guarantee listening quality. There are bad recordings in both formats, and it sometimes makes you wonder why you shelled out 20 bucks for the SACD version. SACD has to go through a proprietary Sony VC filter and a faster clock, but after that, it's all standard issue stuff. Most manufacturers will stick with a standard crystal oscillator, standard "just makes it" power supply and standard op amps (buffer to output). One of the very few SACD players that I was impressed with is the Sony SCD-1, a Class A+ Stereophile rated component. They did something with that player (at nearly 5 grand MSRP it had better be good!) that made the sound more coherent and more "there", if you will. Take a cheapie SACD player and a really good CD player, compare them a/b/a, then tell me who wins. More than likely the very good CD player.
Now all things being equal, I'd still go for the SACD/DVD-A format, but not by too much. Yes, there is extra detail that's floating around, there is a hgher sampling rate, but it's still, at least to me, not THAT much in gain. Most of the DVD-A stuff has been remastered (hopefully!) as well as the SACD, but some make you wonder why even bother at all.
My guess with the Acura, different tuning since it's going through a different filter for the DVD-A. Also, since the DVD-A is driving each one of the speakers as "discrete", the imaging will be better as long as the studio didn't go too nuts on the processing. More ambience. Less "flatness". Perhaps a REALLY good job of "rear fill" with the DVD-A/SACD, if you will?
Still, I'd agree with you. If Lexus put in a DVD-A or a SACD (or both!) into their system, it would sound better. That is, it's going to sound as good as a "stock" system can, whatever that level may be. Just wait until the guys and gals here on the board start putting in DVD-A/SACD into their rides with aftermarket or modified components.
Percy
Going to open up a can of worms here...
If they made a player that had BOTH DVD-A and SACD, it would be ideal, but imagine the liscensing nightmares that the company would have to go through! I've listened to both SACD versus a regular CD, even did a head to head a/b comparison of a stock SACD player (Sony 777ES) versus a modified CD player (Denon 560 w/mods). End result was like Mike Tyson (sacd) versus Bruce Lee (modded CD). Lee won the comparo, and this was with 3 other salespeople listening as well as some customers. They still couldn't believe that a 500 dollar player just wiped the floor with a nearly 3000 dollar player.
The formats themselves won't guarantee listening quality. There are bad recordings in both formats, and it sometimes makes you wonder why you shelled out 20 bucks for the SACD version. SACD has to go through a proprietary Sony VC filter and a faster clock, but after that, it's all standard issue stuff. Most manufacturers will stick with a standard crystal oscillator, standard "just makes it" power supply and standard op amps (buffer to output). One of the very few SACD players that I was impressed with is the Sony SCD-1, a Class A+ Stereophile rated component. They did something with that player (at nearly 5 grand MSRP it had better be good!) that made the sound more coherent and more "there", if you will. Take a cheapie SACD player and a really good CD player, compare them a/b/a, then tell me who wins. More than likely the very good CD player.
Now all things being equal, I'd still go for the SACD/DVD-A format, but not by too much. Yes, there is extra detail that's floating around, there is a hgher sampling rate, but it's still, at least to me, not THAT much in gain. Most of the DVD-A stuff has been remastered (hopefully!) as well as the SACD, but some make you wonder why even bother at all.
My guess with the Acura, different tuning since it's going through a different filter for the DVD-A. Also, since the DVD-A is driving each one of the speakers as "discrete", the imaging will be better as long as the studio didn't go too nuts on the processing. More ambience. Less "flatness". Perhaps a REALLY good job of "rear fill" with the DVD-A/SACD, if you will?
Still, I'd agree with you. If Lexus put in a DVD-A or a SACD (or both!) into their system, it would sound better. That is, it's going to sound as good as a "stock" system can, whatever that level may be. Just wait until the guys and gals here on the board start putting in DVD-A/SACD into their rides with aftermarket or modified components.
Percy
I mean, sure... if you take the same CD and play it on a SACD/DVD-A player and then on a nice CD player... who knows what the results may be. But that's basically castrating the SACD/DVD-A player. Put a remastered or freshly recorded native DVD-A or SACD disc in and then put its 2-channel CD counterpart both in the same player (no point in adding a second variable to a format comparison IMO) and then you tell me the difference... especially if you're listening to the DVD-A/SACD disc with a properly setup 5.1-7.1 surround setup with a good sound processor.
It's like night and day over CD.
BTW, I use a Pioneer DV59-Avi... and so far I've very very impressed! http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...442807,00.html
03-29-04, 06:44 PM
#5
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Agreed! That's what I did for my Sony SCD-1. Modified the electronics...and it sounds absolutely wonderful on regular CD as it does on SACD. SACD (on the good recordings) has much more depth and "decay" on the piano notes - plus the general atmosphere is much more involved.
If the car audio realm can match up to the modified SCD-1, then they're really making leaps and bounds. It's going to be a while though. I don't know of any sub 5k$ player that can match up to it. Even the 20,000 USD Krell kps25 sounds broken by comparison.
Percy
If the car audio realm can match up to the modified SCD-1, then they're really making leaps and bounds. It's going to be a while though. I don't know of any sub 5k$ player that can match up to it. Even the 20,000 USD Krell kps25 sounds broken by comparison.
Percy
03-30-04, 10:11 PM
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In my experience, SACD players aren't quite up to the standards of high end CD players as a whole. I'm sure that some models, like the Accuphase and dCS gear, are as good as it gets. But Sony equipment, while good stuff, just isn't up to the standards of $5000+ cd players. If the SACD or DVD-A market gets going, then I think you'll see a lot more high end, high resolution players made by people like Mark Levinson, Linn, etc. SACD is the best format available. But artists need to start recording in that format originally and it needs to gain steam. Other than something like Accuphase or dCS, I don't think you'll get the same level of playback that you can get out of a high end CD player or modded good player.
03-31-04, 07:05 AM
#7
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Most of the Sony players I wouldn't recommend all that much. SCD-1 is a completely different beast. Audio Asylum's site rates this quite highly as well as the Audiocom site, and I'd agree from the listening that I've done with the unit. As for the dCS, they're great players, but highly overpriced, imo. They're still using standard cut clock oscillators, but they sound amazing when modded.
Percy
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