RON430

Been through most of the previous posts. Planning an upgrade for my GS430. I think Percy has me believing in the Dyns and the Vel for the subwoofer. The technology of the Vel is fascinating. However, Peter Lufrano has given a big "They are gone and there won't be anymore." to the Vels so my question is what are some other free air sub options. My musical preference is pretty diverse but mostly rock/pop although jazz, both classical and modern, is getting more play time. I seem to have concentrated more on the highs than the bass over the years in systems that have impressed me. I am hoping the dyns give that bright clarity and separation that come with good tweeters. I think most of the power should really come from the mids and I want the sub to make sure there aren't any holes in the low end but the vast majority of subs seem to have a "muddy" quality to me. Percy - does that make sense, hope it gives the view for what I am looking for. If I were to sum up in one word what I am looking for, it would be "balance." I will keep the stock head unit, let's talk about amps later. So the question is, what are the good free air subs out there if you can't go for the Vels. Mean Gene's recommendation for the JL Audio have them on the list and I can see the ads A10 and Dynaudio MW180 also seem to work in free air setups. Any other thoughts on something that will go into the stock location without too much surgery and really improve things?

Mean Gene

Ron - Give some serious thought to a small sealed box with a single 10" & a decent amp to power it. U could secure the box to the bottom of the rear deck area & not lose any trunk space. I'm afraid a free air sub won't give ya the balance & tightness that U're seeking. For the most part, my music tastes run from jazz & older rock to gospel ( I sing baritone in a quartet ) so I keep my 12's S/D & rely on the rear door 8" midbasses for the lower frequencies - probably 90% of the time. Really tight & responsive. Probably could put a 10W3 in the factory location with a box that wasn't much larger than the diameter of the cone & not much deeper than the magnet - plus the smaller box would improve the SQ. Just something to consider.

RON430

Don't know why I was reluctant to get into a box but I have been thinking it won't be that much more work. Just so I am clear, we are talking about mounting the sub in the box and then mounting the box tight up against the underside of the shelf and letting it fire through the stock opening, right? I have noticed that while the selection of free air subs is not too good, there is a pretty good selection of subs for small enclosures. Would you still stay with the same brand/model recommendations? I am thinking that when I get ready to do this it will involve a fair amount of work (although I consider it therapy and will do it myself), I might as well add an amp. With under a thousand miles I am still curious if Lexus is going to have warranty problems if they see a separate amp in the trunk (anybody had any experience in that area?). Of all the things that have been addressed in these postings, and you and Percy have really provided a lot of quality info, I was wondering which amps would qualify for the coolest running? I know Percy likes Mac and I have been looking at the 446 to do everything but I really want and need to keep a functioning trunk. I was just curious if there are certain brands/models of amps that run cooler than others. Just like an engine, a cool running amp should be a long running amp.

Mean Gene

Ron - Yep, that's what I had in mind for an enclosure utilizing a JL 10W3 ( think those need a box anywhere from .5 to 1 cubic foot as a sealed enclosure & the smaller box will yield tighter bass with a very slight loss in low end frequencies - don't think U'd notice it ). Besides, for your listening style, I'd opt for responsiveness & tightness from my bass over the absolute lowest frequencies being reproduced. As far as cooling ( a problem I fight occasionally with a chrome amp; black car & 100 degree Louisiana days - but only when I REALLY get on the bass ), I don't see that being a big concern as it will only be powering one sub & ( hopefully? ) at a decent impedance. In fact, my original system had a free-air 10" JL with a RF Punch 360 on it & it never S/D. The Macs are SO clean in power it's hard to vote against them from anything other than a cost standpoint. If U R really worried about thermal problems, check out the Bazooka Pro20 series amps which use their Chill pack to circulate an antifreeze type mixture through the amp. Another one of those products I don't have firsthand experience with but might stop by SAS/Bazzoka the next time I'm in Baton Rouge. Check their website at www.bazooka.com.

RON430

Thanks for the thoughts. I am still tusseling with the install with the box. I figure I am better working it out on paper before I get into it (especially with the chore it seems like getting the back deck and old subwoofer out is but at least thanks for the detailed instructions that have been posted here on doing it). I think I am worried about rattles and such. Figure it might actually be better to space the box down slightly letting fire through the stock opening. Keeping everything rigid seems like it needs to be a priority not only for SQ but rattle/buzz reduction. One of the things I like about the Vel was that Vel said that it was OK in either free air or enclosed applications so even though it was pricey, I thought I could get away with just the one and then play with the enclosure.

Part of my problem with the cooling (not Louisiana territory but we routinely get over 100 here in San Jose and I have relatives in Fresno where it is also over 100 a lot) was still using the trunk. I guess that sets me apart from a true afficianado but I really like the GS and using it. Seems like the modern amps are not only powerful but they have realized the heat problem and a lot have fans. So what happens when you have something other than components in the trunk. Especially if you load up for a road trip and really restrict airflow in the trunk or even have something right up against the amp. I hope I am being paranoid and that this is not a problem.

To the best of your knowledge, has there been any threads about how Lexus dealers treat mods in relation to warranty? I have been through the site pretty well and starting to see what I can on the old site but haven't seen anything extensive. I don't figure they would mind much if you swap speakers (Heck, even BMW dealers didn't mind that) but running a 4 ga to the trunk with a separate amp might get them perturbed. That was also my reason for trying out the free air first, minimum change while I am still under warranty. I don't mind Lexus not warranteeing anything I do but I don't want to get into a fight about how my amp caused the power steering (just an example) to go out. Any thoughts?

Barritone? Gospel? Got to love those strong vocals. Makes being in a GS that much more enjoyable.

Mean Gene

Ron - I can't recall seeing any posts about audio mods voiding the warranty & as far as performance mods doing the same, it all kinda depends on your dealer. Might want to search some more or just start a new post restricted to dealers in YOUR area. My dealer is cool as is another one here in Louisiana ( only have 3 in the whole state & I'm in the middle of 2 of them - 2 hour drives either way!! ). I can also relate to keeping the trunk functional - that's why I created my motorized amp racks to allow access to a spare. Consider fabrication of an amp rack that will be secured to the back wall ( behind the rear seats ). That's where I had my first bi-amplified system & lost virtually no trunk space or encountered cooling problems - I had the JL IBU4 10" free air then as well. As U can see from my pics, there's only about 66% of usable trunk area left right now but we packed it tight & went to DisneyWorld the first week of June & nothing S/D. I am considering a switch from my Focals to Dyns but not sure about the Velo ( strictly from a cost standpoint ). We'll be looking for some pics from ya when things get going!! Good luck!

RON430

Gene - I will very likely start a thread for the mod/warranty issue - probably in the maintenance section? I have been sort of mulling mounting an amp under the rear shelf. I know wiring is going to be a pain (the older I get, spending time upside down in my trunk loses its charm) but it would definitely be out of the way. Seems like up high back there is quite a bit of room. I will definitely work on the pics, although another technology I am not competent in yet.

Percy has posted the Autophile sight for the Vel's. I was surprsied to see they are in Berkley, just up the road a piece from me. I e-mailed and asked for prices and Peter responded that the Vels are gone and there ain't going to be any more. If you find some other source, I would still consider giving them a try but I have not been able to find anyone else that even acknowledges the existence of Vel auto subs, even Vel. Thanks again.

Eric Holdaway

We are doing an upgrade to a '99 GS300 for one of the guys from APEX. We are using 2 - 15" USD Audio Xtreme Y-215/QVC subwoofer in a "Free-air" alignment.

I like to use the largest subwoofer that will fit into a car for a couple of reasons.

1: Larger drivers are inherently lower distortion than smaller drivers of the same quality. This is because of the higher efficiency or sensitivity that a larger driver will have over a smaller driver. Larger drivers move less to achieve the same amount of spl per watt than a smaller driver.

2: Larger drivers can take advantage of the "Box" effect of the trunk. ie. The above mentioned GS300; we have 2 - 15" subs. The trunk is about 12 ft3 and we are tuning the trunk with a 10" dia. port that is 10" long to get an enclosure tuning freq. of 20Hz.

Of course you have to go with high quality large driver to have good results. This is true for small drivers too, but 15" really good subs are a lot more expensive that really good 10" subs. But, I fell that they are well worth doing!!!

RON430

Thanks for the comments. If I understand correctly, you are using the dual 15s free air and essentially the whole trunk will be the "box". So where will you mount the 15s? Surgery on the rear shelf or building a baffle in the trunk to mount them to? I cannot disagree with your comments on the 15s, they are going to move a lot more air and any 10. I think one of the reasons I was impressed by the Vels was the excursion of even the 10. I also think this would be a lot more bottom end than I am really looking for. Mean Gene, am I right in that?

Eric Holdaway

We are facing the subs into the rear seat, and sealing the rear deck and all with baffles.
We will be removing the leather behind the rear seat arm rest, and replacing it with
Black grill cloth. That should help lower the radiation impedence into the cabin.

We do as little cutting to these cars as possible.

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I cannot disagree with your comments on the 15s, they are going to move a lot more air and any 10. I think one of the reasons I was impressed by the Vels was the excursion of even the 10. I also think this would be a lot more bottom end than I am really looking for. Mean Gene, am I right in that?

Yea, but excursion is where the higher distortion comes in. Of course, Velodyne is a great sub. The nice thing about having to much bass, is that you can always turn it down to get just the right amount of bass that you want. If the subs that you go with can not deliever enough bass, then you have to start over. Some thing to think about.

Mean Gene

Ron - While I agree ( for the most part with Eric - nice to have ya onboard! ) about the higher distortion versus excursion range, IMO, I'd still opt for a smaller driver like a 10" or 12" simply for the response time versus the larger 15". Even if U cross the 15" down to a similar frequency range as a 10 ( say, 25-30 Hz ), besides not using the full capabilities of the 15', the larger mass & magnet isn't going to respond as quickly as a 10" in the style of music in which U say U listen to the most ( jazz & rock ). Sure it will hit harder but only if U play the kind of music that requires those notes - try anything with a pipe organ in it!!! In my USAC experience, a 12" is a good compromise between the bass producing 15" & the tight response of a 10" woofer. Of course, we're bassheads down here in Cajun country!! I've seen a Bimmer done like Eric's GS3 project where they angled two 15's into the ski hole & fired them through the same grille cloth idea as Eric's. Don't get me wrong about free-airs. Even the 1998 USAC World Champion "Reaper" Intrepid ran RF free-airs & hit 145 dB but that was designed to be a pure SPL mode which he turned off during the SQ portion of the contest. Lots of good info on here - the final decision is up to U, your budget & your listening preferences. Good luck!!

RON430

Thanks a lot for the input. I truly appreciate the comments. I am not in a big hurry and can slowly sort out how much I want to give up for what I want to achieve. Two 15s mounted to the back seat sounds like a lot of speaker (no pun intended). If you don't mind me asking for some more opinions, I like the layout of the GS premium radio/CD player so I have no intention of replacing it. Outboard amp I figure is going to happen eventually. At what point do you believe you have exceeded what the factory head unit is capable of as far as subs? Eric and Mean Gene - if I go back to my original system preference description, my one word descriptor was balance. I know you can turn the bass down but this sounds like an overpowering amount of bass to me. Am I missing something?

Percy - if you are out there - you posted a while back that the new Mcintosh amps would be able to take speaker level inputs. Do you know if that has moved across the board or would you need LLCs with say a M446?

Mean Gene - When all this happens, I will get all the photos I can and post if anyone is interested. Have to sort out digital photography. Have a camera, just haven't used it much yet. One of the overriding issues in my decision to get a GS 430 (out of the usual list of suspects from BMW, Merc, Audi, etc.) was this board and knowing that there was a resource out there for assisting in "tweaking". Still don't know how much I will do to the car but having the wisdom that a lot of you guys provide actually helped me go for the GS. If you are interested, another big issue (that is rarely talked about) is size. Auto World printed interior volumes and it was fascinating. The new Merc C class - 89 cuft, BMW 3 series - 91, 5 series - 93 (In case a 5 looked real close to a 3 to you, it was not just your imagination), Merc E - 95, GS - 100. I can very much feel the extra room of the Lexus. Of course, the 300hp doesn't hurt.

Eric Holdaway

This is a common misunderstanding. Most people compare comperablely PRICED 10" and 15". You have to compare comperable designed 10" against 15". When this is done, you will be comparing a $200 10" against a $400 to $500 15". As I stated before, a good 15" is way more money than a good 10".

A good 15" will sound much better than a good 10" with any type of music.

I do NOT brag or talk about spl systems. I do not find them as gratifing as a SQ systems. So all of the recommendations that I have put forth are with SQ in mind.

As an example, 2 of the best known SQ cars in are car audio history use 2 - 15" subwoofers. Spealer Works Buick Grand National and Kimura's Acura Legend.

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in the style of music in which U say U listen to the most ( jazz & rock ). Sure it will hit harder but only if U play the kind of music that requires those notes - try anything with a pipe organ in it!!! In my USAC experience, a 12" is a good compromise between the bass producing 15" & the tight response of a 10" woofer. Of course,

12" can be better than a 10" if you follow the rules as above.

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we're bassheads down here in Cajun country!! I've seen a Bimmer done like Eric's GS3 project where they angled two 15's into the ski hole & fired them through the same grille cloth idea as Eric's. Don't get me wrong

We are not trying to put all of the output through the ski boot. Believe me, that leather seat will be basically transparent to the 15" subs, with or without the small piece of leather there. We are removing the litttle piece to help keep it from rattling against the leather arm rest when it is closed. We had to do the same in Kimura's Legend.

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about free-airs. Even the 1998 USAC World Champion "Reaper" Intrepid ran RF free-airs & hit 145 dB but that was designed to be a pure SPL mode which he turned off during the SQ portion of the contest. Lots of good info on here - the final decision is up to U, your budget & your listening preferences. Good luck!!

You know, I just never get the "My spl is hight than your spl" that always comes out. Our cars get REAL loud and clear and the customers enjoy them. That is the purpose of car audio.

Eric Holdaway

Well, yea..... but it will sound better than a 10". The argument could be made (TIC) that getting the GS430 is Over Kill when a IS300 will go freeway speeds too. But boy is that V8 FUN! Yea, 15" subs are not working as hard as a 10" or a 12" and THAT is the point! Because they are not working as hard they sound MUCH better!

Think of it this way, if you have a 200 watt amp against a 1000 watt amp. Using the same speaker system.

If you test the 200 watt amp at full output of 200 watts and the 1000 watt amp at 200 watts, the 1000 watt amp will be working at 20% of its output and will be coasting at VERY low distortion, while the 200 watt amp is bust'n butt at FULL output with no margin for error. You make the call which will be better.

Mean Gene

Ron - Well, as U can see, there R many different schools of thought on systems & most have valid points. While I don't know Eric personally ( & I'm not about to turn this into a flame! ), I'm very aware of his company & it's association with David Navrone's Buick GN - have met David once & found him to be open & friendly, unlike some others that we don't care to discuss here. I guess the only realistic thing for ya to do would be to find some folks with modded systems in your area & let YOUR ears be the judges. That said, I WILL defend the "My SPL" quote. The SPL portion is still part of every USAC/IASCA/MECA event that I've entered so there is merit in having a system that will make pressure. Loudness does nothing for my ears, either but, living down in the Deep South where "Crank-It-Ups" were born, U kinda have it in your blood. I wouldn't buy a Lexus to do an SPL system either - I had a part in the 1988 World Champ SPL Van way back then. If competition is going to be part of your audio future, then U'd do well to consider having some SPL ( especially if U run in USAC - not as critical in IASCA ).
Ron - I think your plan to just lay back & do some serious research ( both with your eyes & ears ) will yield an excellent system of which I await some pics. Good luck!