MMM

Hello all.

I've been reading the forums for quite some time now and haven't really heard any opinions of AlpineF#1Status products. From what I've seen, it looks very retro - simple display with the classic 6 "chiclet" buttons and metal ****. Specs are fabulous too! And the PXA-H900 processor is just plain outstanding!

Check out this link: http://www.overboost.com/whats_hot.asp?id=17

What do you guys think?

MMM

retrodrive

Ive heard a lot about this line of products and lately I had the pleasure to audition the whole system in a VERY nice setup.

It looks nice and simple (thus, professional) and Alpine has always been a good quality company.

Some of the things the F1 provides are virtually useless (like 5.1). There is nothing better then stereo in a car audio applications. F1 is no different.

Also the price. I mean you pay for something that you are not going to use and IMO its a waste of money. I love the product and how it sounds, but there is no way I would buy it even if I was the richest guy around.

There are other products out there that could beat F1 in price and the quality.

itzloud

There are other products out there that could beat F1 in price and the quality.

Price wise yes...
Quality is going to be very hard to beat. That F1 status is very pimp

TX GS

Spec to Spec it's absolutely overpriced.

retrodrive

IDONE can spank the F1 in both fields. F1 is a cool toy though!

Percy

itzloud,

Actually, it's not going to be hard to beat at all. I took a look at the specs and the pictures of the circuit boards, etc. Specs, once again, won't say HOW they're measured. Example, the s/n ratio. Was that from 20-20khz or was that the "standard issue Alpine" 1khz reading? If they don't say 20-20khz, then it's the 1k. Reason for using a 1k reading, it's the lowest number for distortion and the highest number for signal to noise.

There's ALOT of hype going on in their ads, typical of Alpine. MDAC this, DC/DC converter that, new "reference standard"...blah blah blah. Been there, done that. Alpine makes things LOOK good, they've always had a knack for marketing. Are they the last word in sound QUALITY? No. There are other combinations that will completely waste the F1. Take out the Alpine speakers, take out the Alpine amps, take out their subs. Mix and match with the high end stuff (Dyn/Velodyne/McIntosh/ADS/Diamond HEX/Focal) and you'll have something decent. Their system WILL NOT beat out a reference XESZ50 (8k$ for main unit) from Sony. Nor will it lay waste to a Pioneer Optical Digital Reference System. Or even a well equipped system such as a Clarion DRX9255 head unit, Mc MX406, Sony C90, Sony XES-P1, Nakamichi (very smooth sound!) with some decent amplification and high end speakers. I can pretty much GUARANTEE that a properly set up system using the components (other than the F1) will have a tremendous sound quality factor.

Pros. Alpine is at least incorporating some new technology. Their MDAC is, IMO, junk. However their PXA processor is using a high end Burr Brown PCM1704 24 bit d/a converter. YAY! Also, they're incorporating HDCD, High Definition Compatible Digital. Another step forward.

Cons. Alpine is *still* using a graphic eq? Granted, it's digital but something that is supposed to be a reference standard should at least use a multi band, multi setting parametric eq! There have been two digital EQ's that I've listened to that were Alpine. The ERAG320 (which I had and GLADLY sold) and the PXAH600 parametric. BOTH SUCKED. They were the worst eq's I've ever had in my system. Very dull sounding. The H600 was supposed to be their "end all" to processors back in '97-'98. If they kept up this trend in the PXAH900, then I can pretty much say it's junk.

Their op amps. 5 cent surface mount generics. 4558's. Even the NE5532's sound better and that's not saying much. The reason why Sony, Clarion, McIntosh and Nakamichi sound better is due to the op amps they use. They're the first and last components a signal sees. Nak is using a 7th order butterworth filter and probably with the OP275's from Analog Devices. Clarion and Mc were using OPA2604 Burr Browns. A little outdated but they still sound quite nice. Sony's C90 is using the newer OP275's along with some neat processing. Sounds great...equal to the XESZ50 if you take the preamp signal straight on.

Jitter reduction/Digital input filter. Looks like an NPC special. Good for entry level/cost constraints but it has NO PLACE in a reference system. They're better off with Crystal CS8412's, though I forgot what their 24 bit equivalent is. Mc, Sony, and a few select others are using CS8412's. Good stuff.

Will you hear a difference between 20 bit and 24 bit? Unlikely. Most recorded sources are 16 bit. The extra bits are there for any thermal/electronic noise. Though between 20 and 24 bit, the dynamic range is slightly higher. The main difference is still the op amps and whatever output analog circuitry they're using. Also important is their power supply. Clean power supply, tightly regulated and filtered equals clean sound. Noisy DC/DC converter equals misinterpreted information.

I also notice that Alpine isn't listing channel seperation numbers. This is also important. The higher the number, the less crosstalk and better imaging between left and right channels. Also, I didn't see a distortion figure but I probably missed that one.

Verdict...F1...overhyped with much technobabble. Those with sensitive BS detectors will see through the pretty pictures and hype. Those without the sensitive BS meters will have to learn from us old geezers.


Retrodrive,

Did ID finally release the IDONE? I've been hearing about that piece ever since '98 but nothing ever materialized. Nice processor but they should have used a parametric eq! The interface with the Palm pilot is pretty neat!

Percy

retrodrive

They have released it, but its not for sale yet. My buddy has just left for IASCA finals with ARC/ID partial sponsorship and he could have used the IDONE in his system. However, he did not have time to play around with the piece and used some other products for tuning.

Looks like the product will not be out to public very soon since there are many people who want that piece and who are ging to get it first. At least that is what Matt from ID was saying.

Percy

Retro,

It would be good if they released the IDONE. I know a handful for people on RAC (rec.audio.car) that would love to get their mitts on one!

I can see it now..."New for the year 2005...The Image Dynamics ID ONE! 8 years in planning! All for a low MSRP of 4 grand!"

Then it turns out that the Palm Pilot is more sophisticated than the IDONE. Go figure. Gotta love technology.

Percy

head unit

Hello All, having worked on the AlpineF#1Status project, I feel compelled to clarify some misinformation posted here.

Speakers: the best top-of-the line speaker drivers are basically developed by European companies. Each has a somewhat different philosophy, and they all sound different. Alpine partnered with one of these to develop the X-series, and the raw drivers are on par with anything in the world, including Focal or Dynaudio or whoever. Will they be your personal favorite? Who knows? Everyone has different ears after all. But the quality and technology of the drivers, coupled with a unique new installation-position driven crossover setup, is second to none.

MDAC: Neither AlpineF#1Status piece uses it, so I don’t understand the negative comment about it. This DAC was actually very well received by Alpine dealers, so much that it will be used again.

“5 cent surface mount generic 4558” opamps: Really? Where? Not that I recall. I think there was a 5532 at the input which is used for navigation voice, so forgive us if “turn left at the light” doesn’t have quite as much depth and clarity as it might.

S/N ratio: A “1 kHz” S/N ratio makes no sense; you can’t measure signal-to-noise at a discrete frequency. Maybe what was meant is that the measurement is referenced to a 1 kHz maximum output tone? The official Alpine specs are measured A-weighted just like everyone else. Actual measurement wideband UNweighted with a 22 kHz lowpass filter on an Audio Precision, I get about 119-120 dB re: 8V from the PXA-H900 using a 24 bit digital input from the A.P.. Playing a “zero data” CD on the CDA-7990 gets you about 112. Maximum output is actually about 9-9.5 volts RMS unclipped from either unit.

ERA-G320: speaking of S/N ration, that EQ’s was poor. It was a light show, and often connected with no audio input or so I’m told. Not Alpine’s finest hour, I would agree. But never intended for sound quality fanatics either.

THD: I’m guessing there is no spec because Dolby & DTS decoding are included in the PXA-H900, and it is troublesome to define THD. Or, maybe someone just forgot. It doesn’t really matter. THD is basically negligibly low in any high quality equipment these days. We measured 0.015% at 1 kHz in CD mode using the Audio Precision and no filters (i.e. out to the 500 kHz limit of the AP) if anyone is curious.

There was a comment “Some of the things the F1 provides are virtually useless (like 5.1). There is nothing better then stereo in a car audio applications.” Similar comments were heard many years ago when monaural fans were aghast at the thought of two channels. And we did suffer through a lot of crappy “quad”, and I’ve already heard some less-than-thrilling 5.1 mixes amongst the cool ones. But if you read Surround Professional and such magazines, you’ll see many music projects these days are 5.1, so if you want to hear what the artist really intended (and not some compromised 2-channel mixdown), you need a 5.1 decoder. Besides, who wants to show off a movie in the car for their friends in stereo?

As for the comment “Alpine is *still* using a Graphic EQ? [PXA-H900] should at least use a multi band, multi setting parametric eq!”: Umm, er, well, it does! You can set up each channel INDIVIDUALLY with 1/3 octave graphic OR ten bands of parametric. It’s the users choice, because in real life few people understand parametric EQs let alone know how to use them. And, because RTAs are 1/3 octave, it is easier to use a graphic sometimes for setup. The subs have additional separate EQ, or you can even use the Adaptive EQ. The Adaptive EQ analyzes the time response of the entire system, and then corrects not just the frequency response but the phase response up to 500 Hz. It does this by calculating correction factors for low & mid-bass frequency response problems like reflections, and then recalculating every single sample of digital data using those correction factors. It is similar to the Sig-Tech or TACT room correction technologies in the home…but much less expensive, oddly enough, and you get traditional EQ and 5.1 to boot.

So you can take your IDONE or Orion or whatever digital 2-channel piece, and still have several problems:
1) You are applying the same EQ to both sides of the car, which makes no sense, because every corner of the car has different acoustical problems vs. the drivers’ ears.
2) You can’t hear anything in 5.1, which WILL become the new reference, like it or not. And who wants to play a movie or videogame in stereo? That loses a lot of impact compared to a 5.1 version.
3) Real-time bass frequency and phase EQ? NOT!
4) Volume control needs to be done with an additional ****, which is liveable but still kind of Mickey Mouse. (oops, hope Mike Eisner isn’t going to sue me now).

The bottom line is, there’s lots of expensive high end car equipment. Throw enough of it in a car and it will sound better than the factory radio did. But I think the Alpine system finally integrates everything everyone ever bothered me about and more into one package, and while expensive, is actually a much better value than trying to cobble as much power together from other brands’ systems. So I don’t think AlpineF#1Status is “technobabble” at all, and actually I don’t think it was hyped enough because there was TOO much technology to try and explain it all.

The best thing is, go listen for yourselves!

retrodrive

I was not talking about the 5.1 Home applications. As you know car stereo applications are restricted by a car's "hostile environment". %.1 simply will not work when a person is sitting on the side of the soundstage. You can even adjust it by all kind of equalizations, but it will not work for another passenger. So far there is no proper 5.1 application in car stereo and F1 has not changed that (it has probably come closer but stereo still sounds better so far). 5.1 maybe is a future of car stereo, but its the future, it does not work yet.

Just for the reference, this is my personal opinion based on listening to F1S in a very high-end setup.

P.S. Lets not get this thread burn in flames...the discussion is pretty interesting and educational.

head unit

Ah, I see, I thought you were being somewhat Luddite. Apologies for my misinterpretation. (And by the way, that wasn't really meant in a flaming sort of way. Ok, maybe a little bit).

I agree the car is tough for 5.1, but not so much the speaker distance (which can be ameliorated with time delay) but because the angle to the speakers is not wide enough, especially to the left rear. This means the panning will not work as well.

But I've heard some cars which were very nice with 5.1. Especially movies; it's just not the same when the helicopter doesn't fly over your head...

Percy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by head unit
[B]Hello All, having worked on the AlpineF#1Status project, I feel compelled to clarify some misinformation posted here.

Speakers: the best top-of-the line speaker drivers are basically developed by European companies. Each has a somewhat different philosophy, and they all sound different. Alpine partnered with one of these to develop the X-series, and the raw drivers are on par with anything in the world, including Focal or Dynaudio or whoever. Will they be your personal favorite? Who knows? Everyone has different ears after all. But the quality and technology of the drivers, coupled with a unique new installation-position driven crossover setup, is second to none.

***Interesting. Do you have the response charts, as well as MLSSA charts? Would be highly interesting to see. Also, do you have data on 2nd order, 3rd order and IM distortions? Most companies won't put this out but if it's available then it would be very interesting to inspect.

MDAC: Neither AlpineF#1Status piece uses it, so I don’t understand the negative comment about it. This DAC was actually very well received by Alpine dealers, so much that it will be used again.

***What chip is the MDAC exactly? All the literature said was that it was from Burr Brown. Any data sheets? Is it a hybrid like the CS4329/CS4390 1/20 & 1/24 bit dacs?

“5 cent surface mount generic 4558” opamps: Really? Where? Not that I recall. I think there was a 5532 at the input which is used for navigation voice, so forgive us if “turn left at the light” doesn’t have quite as much depth and clarity as it might.

***Which op amps are being used? OP275? BB627A? AD825's? The ones that I'm interested in are the ones from the preamp, both input and output. If you're using 275's then you're on the right step. There are too many 5532, TL074's, 4558s, etc running around in high end audio.

S/N ratio: A “1 kHz” S/N ratio makes no sense; you can’t measure signal-to-noise at a discrete frequency. Maybe what was meant is that the measurement is referenced to a 1 kHz maximum output tone?

**Yep.

The official Alpine specs are measured A-weighted just like everyone else. Actual measurement wideband UNweighted with a 22 kHz lowpass filter on an Audio Precision, I get about 119-120 dB re: 8V from the PXA-H900 using a 24 bit digital input from the A.P.. Playing a “zero data” CD on the CDA-7990 gets you about 112. Maximum output is actually about 9-9.5 volts RMS unclipped from either unit.

***How about 16bit data s/n ratio from 20-20k? The 24 bit data numbers tend to be higher.

There was a comment “Some of the things the F1 provides are virtually useless (like 5.1). There is nothing better then stereo in a car audio applications.” Similar comments were heard many years ago when monaural fans were aghast at the thought of two channels. And we did suffer through a lot of crappy “quad”, and I’ve already heard some less-than-thrilling 5.1 mixes amongst the cool ones. But if you read Surround Professional and such magazines, you’ll see many music projects these days are 5.1, so if you want to hear what the artist really intended (and not some compromised 2-channel mixdown), you need a 5.1 decoder. Besides, who wants to show off a movie in the car for their friends in stereo?

***Well, I can understand both points of view. Most original sources are 16/44k stereo, but like anything else, when done correctly, it should sound fantastic. But there are many recording that don't take full advantage of the technology. Take HDCD for example. On one disc it will sound excellent. On another, it will sound like nothing ever changed over the original non HDCD disc.

As for the comment “Alpine is *still* using a Graphic EQ? [PXA-H900] should at least use a multi band, multi setting parametric eq!”: Umm, er, well, it does! You can set up each channel INDIVIDUALLY with 1/3 octave graphic OR ten bands of parametric. It’s the users choice, because in real life few people understand parametric EQs let alone know how to use them. And, because RTAs are 1/3 octave, it is easier to use a graphic sometimes for setup. The subs have additional separate EQ, or you can even use the Adaptive EQ. The Adaptive EQ analyzes the time response of the entire system, and then corrects not just the frequency response but the phase response up to 500 Hz. It does this by calculating correction factors for low & mid-bass frequency response problems like reflections, and then recalculating every single sample of digital data using those correction factors. It is similar to the Sig-Tech or TACT room correction technologies in the home…but much less expensive, oddly enough, and you get traditional EQ and 5.1 to boot.

***Interesting...the link doesn't mention the choices from graphic to parametric. What's the adjustability of the parametric? .1db steps? Range of adjustability? +/- 15db? Also, is the software built into the unit like the Z50 or did alpine go the bogus route of the XDP4000X in that the software (in USA) has to be installed and tweaked by the shop only?

So you can take your IDONE or Orion or whatever digital 2-channel piece, and still have several problems:
1) You are applying the same EQ to both sides of the car, which makes no sense, because every corner of the car has different acoustical problems vs. the drivers’ ears.

***True. XES, from memory, was independent.

2) You can’t hear anything in 5.1, which WILL become the new reference, like it or not. And who wants to play a movie or videogame in stereo? That loses a lot of impact compared to a 5.1 version.

***Also true. What will happen with 2 channel recordings though? Will this be processed through a phantom center channel much like pro logic?

3) Real-time bass frequency and phase EQ? NOT!

4) Volume control needs to be done with an additional ****, which is liveable but still kind of Mickey Mouse. (oops, hope Mike Eisner isn’t going to sue me now).
***??? You lost me there. Two volume controls? Isn't there some way of switching this through some SMT relays?

The bottom line is, there’s lots of expensive high end car equipment. Throw enough of it in a car and it will sound better than the factory radio did. But I think the Alpine system finally integrates everything everyone ever bothered me about and more into one package, and while expensive, is actually a much better value than trying to cobble as much power together from other brands’ systems. So I don’t think AlpineF#1Status is “technobabble” at all, and actually I don’t think it was hyped enough because there was TOO much technology to try and explain it all.

***I'd rather have a company go through the time and effort to explain everything. Much like the Sony XES white papers and technical explanations. After many years of hype and "technobabble" from many companies, you get used to it. So far, the only companies that I've experience that laid everything on the table were McIntosh, Dynaudio and Velodyne. IMO, if a company did take the time to produce a readily available white paper with all the tech specs then that, to me, means they're serious about changing their image. McIntosh goes so far as to have their schematics available for purchase, knowing that their design is safe because of the patents. I tried that with Sonys XDP4000X when it was released and they said it was still considered classified. Is Alpine's F1 also going this same route?

The best thing is, go listen for yourselves!
***Where?!?! I asked the local Alpine dealership around here (Sound Experience) and the guy has no idea what I'm talking about!!! Sony's XESZ50 setup (complete 16k w/XES speakers and XES amps) was also claiming to be the best of the best back in '97. I took a listen. Was I impressed? To a certain degree. I was mostly disappointed though. Even after a serious retuning using a 1/3rd oct 30 band Cetic Ivie RTA, it still didn't sound as good as the system I had back then. My take...the subs didn't sound as clean and tight (but then, what sounds cleaner than a Velodyne?), the mids were not nearly as neutral as the Dyns that I have and the treble sounded thin. Their soundstaging was quite narrow due to the ribbon design. Yes, the Dyn dome tweets blew them away.

Also, what is the cost of this technolgy? And will it be usable with any combo of headunit/amp out there? This is what the industry needs to work on, compatibilty with other units rather than worrying about the bottom line with a proprietary bus. Image Dynamics IDONE has the right idea and so does the McIntosh gear. You can use their processor on virtually any combo out there. Rather than worrying about "oops...it doesn't have an AiNet hookup...can't use it" it would be better to not worry about it.

HDCD is a step in the right direction. I've been harping about this since they incorporated this in a few players. But, I'm mostly impressed with it's rendition in the Krell player I have. Now if only the car audio companies can get the output op amps right.

If any technical papers are available, send them to me! Who knows...I might even have LOTS of improvements for you!

Percy
Krell, McIntosh, Dynaudio, Velodyne, Sony ES, Monster M Series (home), Optima, Deflex.

Percy

Retro,

I would never let this section turn into flames. We've got a pretty good group here and they're all willing to learn about something new. Who knows? Maybe a good long chat with Head Unit will end up with a product that's worlds better! He seems reasonable and he doesn't have his head full of the Zausmer ideals. A good thing.

Percy

AutoCoutureSC

iTrader: (8)

i have the alpine pxa-h900 new in box that i'm sellling. it's brand stinking new. how much should i sell it for?nothing is missing and it is complete! it looks hella cool, but i don't think i need it

head unit

First of all, do-luck sc, you should sell your PXA-H900 to me. I think $99 is a good price. (sorry, I couldn't resist). What do you mean you don't need it? You should put it in your house, that's actually the best place for it.

disclosure: I edited the most of the original post below, you can see it above.

***by percy
> by head unit again
[B]Hello All, having worked on the AlpineF#1Status project, I feel compelled to clarify some misinformation posted here.

Speakers [edited]
***Interesting. Do you have the response charts, as well as MLSSA charts? Would be highly interesting to see. Also, do you have data on 2nd order, 3rd order and IM distortions? Most companies won't put this out but if it's available then it would be very interesting to inspect.
> I don't have any charts, that's someone else's baby.
> As an ex-speaker engineer, I can tell you that generally that stuff is not published because
a) it is a very very limited picture of what the speaker sounds like. It's not like an amp or a head unit, where measurement graphs have some fair correlation to the more macro aspects of the sound.
b) 99.99% of people wouldn't understand it. Most people would simply misinterpret.
> So that's why you don't see many published speaker measurements.

> As to why we don't use Dynaudio, that's a skeleton in the closet. As those with long memories remember, Alpine marketed a woofer and a tweeter manufactured by Dynaudio. They all blew up. I projected the return rate would EXCEED 100% (due to multiple warranty claims I suppose). The Dyn stuff is wonderfully dynamic, but at least in those days just couldn't hold up to a pounding. And EVERY car audio customer pounds at least once in a while.
> In the current state of technology, Scan-Speak would argue that their tweeter is better than the Esotar. And Focal would say theirs is best
> It's really somewhat meaningless to compare all those tweeters and try to say which is "best", because the tweeters will never be standalone. They will always be used with associated components, and a crossover, and in a listening environment. And everyone has different ears and different preferences.
> Much like Wilson and TAG McLaren and others, the X-tweeter is based on the Revelator but it is modified to Alpine spec.
> The (beautiful!!) crossovers were codesigned with a top home expert to fit car use.


***What chip is the MDAC exactly? All the literature said was that it was from Burr Brown. Any data sheets? Is it a hybrid like the CS4329/CS4390 1/20 & 1/24 bit dacs?
> MDAC is not a particular chip but a technology, kind of like a one bit with three bits hiding inside. You can have a higher sample rate playback with less jitter than a pure one bit running at 96 kHz
> the PCM1716 is one example; I think that was what the CDA-7840 used.

***How about 16bit data s/n ratio from 20-20k? The 24 bit data numbers tend to be higher.
> ?
> The 112 dB number IS for 16 bit data on the CDA-7990. If you mean for the PXA-H900, it's about the same. Only the PXa-H900 can handle 24-bit data, and that's where you get 119-120 dB S/N. That's pretty much state-of-the-art.
> I peruse Stereophile magazine pretty regularly, and don't see any players that look significantly better than ours as far as raw noise floor, even at insane prices.


***Most original sources are 16/44k stereo, but like anything else, when done correctly, [5.1?] should sound fantastic. But there are many recording that don't take full advantage of the technology. Take HDCD for example. On one disc it will sound excellent. On another, it will sound like nothing ever changed over the original non HDCD disc.
> Actually, my understanding from folks in the recording community is that there are a couple of things you can turn on and off during HDCD encoding. I believe you can turn the dynamic range expansion on and off, for instance
> There was a question about how do we implement some HDCD aspect.
> I assume the question was about the volume control. Non-HDCD discs are supposed to be played back at -6 dB as a condition of the HDCD license. Most players just reduce the volume by one bit in the digital domain. A few players switch in a -6 dB analog gain reduction
> The reasoning is
a) (official reason) to match the average volume between HDCD discs (which usually have the dynamic range expanded downward) and non-HDCD discs, or
b) (cynical disbelief reason) to make all HDCD discs sound better, following the "louder is better" psychoacoustical theory. Note: the official HDCD comparison sampler disc is like this. The HDCD parts are so much louder, it's just stupid.
> PXA-H900 does neither. I thought it would be stupid to throw away 6 dB of S/N on 99.9% of discs played, and I asked for renegotiation of license terms.
>
> As for SACD and DVD-Audio, they were simply not available at the time development started, as far as chips and specs and so on. Actually, they are still not available for outboard processors.
> The best way to hear your DVD-Audio discs is actually from Dolby track on the DVD-Video sector, through a PXA-H900. The difference the PXA-H900 makes by tuning the environment I feel just swamps any purity of playback gained by going from Dolby to 96/24.

[PXA-H900]: is the software built into the unit like the Z50 or did alpine go the bogus route of the XDP4000X in that the software (in USA) has to be installed and tweaked by the shop only?
> Shop only. It's a matter of people understanding how to use it, and also, to be honest, a way of protecting the dealers' very significant investment (they each have to pay to send someone to AlpineF#1Status school and meet certain display requirements).
> If you're a knowledgeable user, the dealer should be willing to teach you how to use it.

***What will happen with 2 channel recordings though? Will this be processed through a phantom center channel much like pro logic?
> If you turn on Pro Logic, yes
> Most folks may set up one preset dialed in for stereo, and another preset for 5.1 movies, and maybe another for 5.1 music.
> All this is still in it's infancy, so the user interfaces and setup are still not perfect
> For example, movie DVDs will tend to sound much quieter, because they all have dialog normalized to a Dolby reference level which is well below digital maximum (to allow for explosions and so on). Since music discs don't have as much dynamic range as movies, CD/radio/music DVD tends to sound much louder
> But development started before DVD was very popular, so unfortunately not all those problems were realized at the time or even easily solvable.

Volume control needs to be done with an additional ****, which is liveable but still kind of Mickey Mouse. (oops, hope Mike Eisner isn’t going to sue me now).
***??? You lost me there. Two volume controls? Isn't there some way of switching this through some SMT relays?
> I meant the IDONE and Phoenix and other pieces, since you can't control the volume from the head unit

***I'd rather have a company go through the time and effort to explain everything. Is Alpine's F1 also going this same route?
> Problem is, there are a zillion things going on inside Alpine, this is just one part of the business, and it's impossible to spend so much time
> Also, there is a very limited ability for most dealers and installers to absorb so much detailed information. They're too busy trying to learn every brand's information, and earn a living as well
> But we may try and do a few white papers like we used to



EQ boost/cut. Only +/- 9db? XESZ50 has +/- 12db...McIntosh has +/- 15db.
> Yeah, but you just give up dynamic range. In the digital domain there is no free lunch. If you need even +/- 9 dB ideally you should change something else first-driver position or crossover settings or something.

No 72db/oct "brickwall" filter that XESZ50 has?
> yuk!
> Alpine's experience with the 3681 was that even 36 dB per octave did not sound very natural.
> I supposed a brickwall is interesting in theory for a sub lowpass, but such a steep slope makes interdriver transitions difficult in real life.
> So why tie up all that processing power?


> P.S. What are the "Zausmer Ideals" anyway?