Percy

Hi guys!

I just spoke with a head honcho over at Alpine. Per his request, his name will remain anonymous to prevent flooding of his email and voicemail so I'll just refer to him as BG or Big Guy.

Alpine monitors this board as well as others for F#1 feedback and comments. It was kinda surprising to have BG ask "Is this Percy"? But then again my questions were so specific that it's not too difficult to tell who it is!

Alpine's web site and any other site having the F#1 just doesn't do it any justice. The advertisers made it look more like the hype and technobabble format than anything else. There were so many details that weren't listed in the brochures that it's not even funny. How about taking a look at some of the older McIntosh brochures? No hype there...just some serious drooling factor.

The OP AMP part number, I was informed, was wrong. BG said that Renaldo was just pulling a number out of thin air...something that's very hard to do with part numbers, especially with something that IS a valid part number. One does not just automatically say "JRC4558". If they do, then there's something wrong. I asked BG what the part number was and he didn't have one offhand but he would research this. The reason why I'm so critical about this...every component in the signal chain makes a difference. Think the opamp doesn't make a difference? Swap one out sometime.

PXAH900 processor. The power supply was designed completely in house and is considered one of the best switching power supplies available. About 1/3rd of the chassis is relegated to power and I would guess that they're using very thick copper traces for solid power delivery to the components and for good grounding.

Parametric settings are +/- 9db (good flexibility) in 1db steps. Q ranges from 1 to 5. What amazes me is that you can type in a parametric frequency number, say 200.34 hz and it'll do that while other parametrics on the market are in 1/3rd octave steps. The interface is RS232 (serial port) while the software handles the settings and loads it to the PXAH900 in REAL TIME. That is, no delay once when you change the settings. From what I'm told, everything in the software is "drag and drop". When I asked them "Why not load up the software in a EEPROM in the unit itself and have an interface like the Z50?" BG's answer...most of the settings won't be used and it's easier to have the software on the laptop than on the PXAH900. Makes sense.

Phase compensation. The H900 will actually measure and look for a response from each individual driver selected through a test tone and will compare the drivers from their response. The pathlengths from all the selected speakers are equalized from all the calculations.

Parametric/Xover safety features. For those that have experience with parametric EQ's, selecting too high of a "Q" will end up in lots of resonance. Alpine's software prevents this from happening if the frequencies are too close. If you selected a Q of 5 at 200hz and another Q of 3 at 500hz, the software will automatically correct for this. Nice thinking on their part.

The parametric EQ can only be selected through the software as it defaults on graphic eq which most people are more familiar with.


Tweeter crossovers are limited to 1khz for a cutoff point. It won't go any lower but then again that's a very low cutoff point for any tweeter, even at their 30db/oct slope. Most of the time a typical setup will be either at 3.3khz or 4khz. Dynaudio's ESOTAR T330D is very low at 1.5khz, the lowest in the industry for a dome tweeter that I'm aware of.

Speaking of tweeters, the new X series components is quite interesting. Originally BG had said it was from a "European Distributor" and he wasn't quite ready to reveal who was distributing. "Scan Speak" I replied. BG hesitated for a little bit and then went further into the subject. Scan Speak Revelators. For those of you who don't know, Scan Speak makes drivers for many companies out there. Wilson Audio being one of them. For the record though, Wilson audio doesn't keep the drivers in stock form....they change the magnets to their specs. Anyways, Scan Speak Revelators are probably the best bang for the buck when it comes to tweeters. Nothing but positive reviews from them. For their price, hardly anything touches them and they sound quite smooth. Will they touch a Dynaudio? In terms of all out no holds barred performance, no. Dyn does everything inhouse with LOTS of $$$ into research. Now in terms of price range and bang for the buck...the Scan Speak Revelators are VERY tough to beat. Nice job on this one Alpine.

The remote control is indeed backlit. I didn't see it at the time but BG pointed out the "LIGHT" button in the lower left hand of the remote. NICE. Now I can tune in the dark, along with the glowing laptop screen, Pepsi and Pizza! (Just have to remember not to spill!) Maybe change the backlighting to the cool blue/green to match my Mc meters? As for wear and tear on the paint, it should last a great many years before anything nasty starts happening. I'm hoping the buttons won't crack and split due to usage though.

The PXAH900 can be used in a stand alone mode. Meaning if you have a Alpine CDA7909, Sony CDX-C90, Sony CDX-C910 or anything with a TOSLINK digital fiber output, it can be used. Any HDCD information will be transferred to the H900 and decoded from there and all of the processing (eq/xover/time alignmenet) is kept intact. Only thing is that you have to use the volume control on the H900 and NOT on the head unit since you can't really control the digital output levels from the TOSLINK connection. For those Nakamichi users...do they have a TOSLINK/fiber output?

Things change when you use the CDA7990 and the PXAH900. You can control the volume from the headunit in CD mode, probably due to an additional communications harness between the two.

With the H900 having DD, HDCD, MPEG, Pro Logic and DTS, there was one thing missing. SACD. I asked him about this and his comment was that there isn't enough of a SACD base out there. There's plenty of HDCD recordings but not too many SACD. Alpine is going to wait this one out to see what happens. With HDCD, it was an easy choice. Backwards compatibility with ANY player and you didn't have to buy different discs for different codings. A HDCD encoded disc will sound good in a regular player. It will sound even better in a HDCD equipped decoder/player. More warmth, more depth, more "air". All the good stuff. The real test is anything with piano music as you can hear more of the decay in harmonics after each note. That gradual subtle falloff. With the regular recording (non HDCD), it just isn't really there. Take a good Jim Brickman recording (make sure it says HDCD on the back label or check http://www.hdcd.com for a listing) and listen to it. His newest CD doesn't have HDCD encoding and the piano notes just "arent there", not like the HDCD encoded ones. Female voices (also very tough to reproduce) sound fabulous. The soundtrack for "City of Angels" has several good tracks. My fav, track 8, Sarah McLachlin. Very nice and flowing...and yes, there's a piano throughout the song too! Best of both worlds? For those of you with sharp ears, there's a glitch in the song. It'll sound like a quick pop-beep. Can you spot it?

This was absolutely the BEST chat I've ever had with a company specialist. Every question that was fielded was returned with a knowledgable and informed answer. Anything that wasn't answered is now being researched. I'm currently waiting for Alpines demo disc and their big technical paper. Should be interesting. Sony's Mark Weir (techical guru) should use "BG's" conversation as an example of WHAT to do. Instead, with Mark, I got a very very quick 2 minute explanation of the XDP4000X processor. Seems he was late for a golf game or lunch. With BG, lots of patience and explanation and over an hour spent on their 800 line. They paid for the call for me to ask them the technical info and I got the right answers and explanations. Can't get any better than that! Maybe borrowing the F#1 PXAH900 for a loaned evaluation? If that ever happens, you can be sure I'll post detailed pics and an evaluation of that product.

Definitely a 10 (10 being world class) out of 10 scale. Grade...A+. Nice job "BG".

Percy

retrodrive

Wow, interesting. After all looks like that Alpine has come out with something that is worth considering as a high grade SQ system. I still do not think it justifies the price for the unit. There is so much more you can get out of your system for that kind of cash!

klrtunz

Hi All,

As the project leader and designer of the X-series (also product planner for all amps/speakers/processors), I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents and clarify a couple points. While it is correct that we have partnered with Scan-Speak for this project, everything was completely custom for Alpine to our specifications. As you gathered from BG's hesitation, it is not common knowledge, but certainly not a negative point considering Scan's 70+ years of high-end expertise. There's a lot of deep dark secrets out there much less commonly known, such as the fact that JL subs are/were built by Credence. The basic point is, that most brands do not do everything in-house, and those that do, don't necessarily have any advantage over those that don't. Additionally, Scan-Speak is not a distributor, but is the world's leading manufacturer of the ultra high end drivers. They do sell some of their basic designs to distributors, but those are usually not the same ones you will see in their customers' completed designs (such as Wilson, Sonus Faber, Revel, Aeriel, and many more), as was pointed out.

The tweeter is basically a neo-Revelator, but with significant tweeks. With a resonance of approx 700Hz, copper shorting rings, non-reflective air chamber, mounting versatility.....etc, I'd put it up against the Dynaudios & Focals of the world any day for no holds barred performance (and I have, so trust me). However, the woofers/mids & networks are 100% custom top to bottom (involving both Alpine & Scan-Speak patented technology). Significant time, R&D & $$$ has gone into this project, both theirs and ours. In my opinion, I would have to say that the combined resources of Alpine and Scan-speak has a substantial advantage over what Dyn or Focal could dedicate to just car audio (case in point: consider the lack of installer friendliness of those brands due to the direct usage of their home drivers).

Also, as Head-Unit mentioned, the crossover is where the X-series simply has no equal. The 3-way (SPX-F17T) has 930 unique and useful combinations of the jumper settings that make it the most tuneable and phase coherent design ever made for car audio. No one has ever bothered to compensate for the different mounting positions and listening angles in a network, until now. AND, you can actually bypass individual slopes in the network for integration with partially active systems, while retaining response correction. It is a true companion piece for the H900.

OK....Obviously I could blab all day about the design, etc., but in the end, you'd just have to hear them for yourself. I've attached a couple images for those interested.

I agree with Head-Unit and BG though, in that we've basically done a poor job of getting out the real detail that the pros and enthusiasts like you all need. But I'm really glad that you were able to get a lot out of your conversation with BG for the H900. It's guys like you that keep us motivated! And thanks for the kind words. Since my arrival here, I've had my work cut out for me trying to put some of our not so great speaker designs of the past...squarely into the past.

Percy

klrtunz,

You wrote...

"I would have to say that the combined resources f Alpine and Scan-speak has a substantial vantage over what Dyn or Focal could dedicate to just car audio (case in point: consider the lack of istaller friendliness of those brands due to the direct usage of their home drivers). "

This is common misconception regarding Dynaudio. Dynaudio home drivers are NOT the same as their automotive drivers. The adhesives used for both speakers are different as are their MSP (magnesium silicate polymer) formulations and suspensions. They had to be in order for them to have the near field properties needed for the automotive enviroment, plus a wider dispersion pattern. Take for example their 17w75 5 3/4 inch midwoofers for the home and their MD160 midwoofers used for car audio.

MW160 Car audio driver
Nominal impedance 4 ohms.
DC resistance 3.0 ohms
Voice coil inductance .16mH
resonance freq 55hz
mechanical Q factor 2.42 (Qms)
electrical Q factor .65 (Qes)
Total Q factor .51 (Qts)
Moving mass (including air load) 16.2grams
power handling long term IEC 120 watts

17W75EXT Home audio
Nominal impedance 4 ohms
DC resistance 3.0 ohms
Voice coil inductance .17mH
resonance freq 40hz
mechanical Q factor 3.0
electrical Q factor .9
Total Q factor .7
Moving mass 15 grams.
power handling long term IEC 130 watts

17W75 XL (Another variant of the EXT)Home audio
Nominal impedance 4 ohms
DC resistance 3.5 ohms
Voice coil inductance .39mH
resonance frequency 41hz
mechanical Q factor 1.9
electrical Q factor .54
total Q factor .42
Moving mass 13.4 grams
power handling 130 watts long term IEC

As you can see, these clearly aren't the same drivers. This can be further confirmed by either Mike Manousselis of Dynaudio N. America (marketing) and or Aldo R. Filippelli, Executive director of Dynaudio N. America.

Home drivers ARE NOT recommended for use in automotive enviroments. From the information that Mike gave me, the adhesives aren't up to par in a severe enviroment such as an automotive application and also the dispersion patterns won't be as good as the automotive drivers. Even a brief physical inspection will yield a different adhesive being used on where the coils join the MSP cone, plus a different suspension.

From their brochure...

"Dynaudio, the world renowned specialty high end loudspeaker manufacturer from Denmark, long known for manufacturing what are arguably the world's finest loudspeaker components, has designed, developed and produced a dedicated line of mobile audio loudspeaker systems. The result of a 5 year, multi million dollar research and development investment, the Dynaudio Mobile Fidelity products were designed specifically for 12 volt applications and the acoustics of a car."

It's a common mistake but as you can see, they're not the same speakers from home to car audio. In case you need to confirm this, their (Dynaudio's) number is 630-238-4200. Good bunch of guys there.

Percy

klrtunz

Hi Percy,

You're right of coarse. It wasn't really the point I was trying to make though. I didn't mean that they were the exact same drivers, I just meant that minimal effort is sometimes expended to accomodate use in or transition to car audio applications. I would say that Focal is probably a better example of this (e.g. their square frames, clumsy grille design, odd sizes, etc...not all models of coarse), but they are getting better. I think pretty much everyone uses different glues and coatings for their car audio lines, and acknowledges the environmental issues.

I'm also not saying that Dynaudio doen't make some awsome drivers, they do. In fact, back in the day, I used to compete using them. Even Alpine used some of their drivers in the past (although they really didn't hold up to the typical consumer's abuse so well, but I'm sure that's improved...it's been a while) However, for their own brand...their resources are split. If you look at their market share of the high-end, theirs is almost as non existant as ADS' is anymore. Though I would probably blame this on their lack of focus on car audio as a category, not any particular performace issues.

Anyway, as I said, it could just come down to a matter of taste. Give 'em a shot....you might be pleasantly surprised. If you'd like to see some detailed specs, they can be found in the owner's manuals that are posted in our website.

retrodrive

OK, I'll just sit back and read all this. A lot of stuff to learn! Thx for the info guys, it is greatly appreciated by us car audio nutz

2Lexos

but you have yet to ask yourself one question........can you get hot chicks with these gadets?

Percy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by klrtunz

I'm also not saying that Dynaudio doen't make some awsome drivers, they do. In fact, back in the day, I used to compete using them. Even Alpine used some of their drivers in the past (although they really didn't hold up to the typical consumer's abuse so well, but I'm sure that's improved...it's been a while) However, for their own brand...their resources are split. If you look at their market share of the high-end, theirs is almost as non existant as ADS' is anymore. Though I would probably blame this on their lack of focus on car audio as a category, not any particular performace issues.

*** Unfortunately, Dynaudio's advertisements have always been bland and very low key. Throughout all of '96 the only ad I saw was a great dane and a speaker. Black and white with plain text and it's really easy to miss. But then the next page showed some silicone lady holding up some componets in strategic locations. Guess that got more attention. Wonder why? Dyn's marketshare has gone from OEM and automotive (which 25% of their sales used to come from) to now an almost complete revamping of their home line. Dynaudio Evidence and Temptation for example. They're concentrating on more of the high end, no holds barred, cost no object systems, but they're also improving the Contour and Audience lines as well. None of their ads have been the thick paper, thick glossy pages that you see with many other speaker brands. Quite low key. They did drop their OEM line as they didn't feel it was as productive as their other lines.

They used to have a former version of the MW160, but it was a thin cast frame with slightly different specs, similar im appearance to the 17W75. Japan still has a few of these back in '98 (listed in their VERY thick car audio year review...some 300 pages) and Dyn had to improve upon this since if you tightened down the screws/bolts, they would flex. There was a System 240 but it was a Mark I, not the Mk II that is available now. The Mark I didn't have the wide range of frequency and I do believe that the MSP formulation was different as well as the tweeter. The Mark II worked out the bugs. For those that have the MKII, you definitely can't flex the frame at all...extremely strong!
---


Anyway, as I said, it could just come down to a matter of taste. Give 'em a shot....you might be pleasantly surprised. If you'd like to see some detailed specs, they can be found in the owner's manuals that are posted in our website.

***
I definitely know that I would like them...they're scan speaks...(or are they alpine? )! Gordon Waters and I do believe Mike Kim of TeamAMP were using them. For those that don't know, Mike is one of those guys where you can mention a speaker type and he'd rattle off the Qts, Qes, moving mass, etc off the top of his head, almost as bad as I am with op amp slew rates, op amp types, etc!

Scan speaks...best bang for the buck and I took a look at the frequency response graphs...quite good!

So when are you guys going to work on a TRUE reference amp? I asked BG about this and he said it would be nice to match up with a McIntosh.

Percy

TX GS

Perhaps I'm not in the loop, but where do f#1 and X series come together?

Same product line...different line...?

klrtunz

F#1 isn't really a series, it's kind of more like an internal award that Alpine gives to a product. It means that it's achieved the pinacle of design and performance in it's respective product category.

The X-series on the other hand, is a series composed of 5 models currently, with the 3-way (SPX-F17T) and single/center channel (SPX-F13M) being the flagship models. The 3-way was designed to go head to head against the best that the competitors have to offer, and both are companion pieces to the F#1 processor (due to it's independent 3-way front & single center/rear outputs). They're therefore what we call F#1 "ready".

As to Percy's question about a reference amp, currently it is our MRV-F409 (which also gets the F#1 "ready" title)...but you can probably see where things are going. I think I'll have to go smack BG for the McIntosh comment now.

Oh, and Percy....you can call them anything you think will help us sell more. That way I'll get more budget for cool projects in the future. But really, as a favor to me, I'd appreciate it if you'd only mention Scan-Speak as supporting evidence of their inherent quality if necessary. Anything else really diminishes my efforts, and doesn't help the brand much in the long run. (that's my "feeling sensitive" face).

Good luck on the quest you guys....gotta get back to having fun, I mean...work!

Percy

klrtunz,

Mentioning Scan Speak and Alpine in the same space doesn't really do anything negative at all, in fact, with Scan Speak in the picture, it just reinforces the level of sound quality. No offense to your sensitive side!

Now if you can get the guys (Sony, RF, Nak, etc) to all agree on a unified control interface instead of having AiNet, UniLink, etc., then it would be greatly appreciated! Remember how graphics cards were for computers? There were two "standards", VL Bus and PCI. Now it's pretty much AGP. Would be nice to get rid of all the proprietary stuff out there and have more of a universal bus link.

Ever mess around with the high end St-Gen glass fiber or XLR outputs? Supposedly less jitter with the St-Gen. Maybe (long shot) you could incorporate this in a future product? Mc had XLR outs in their MCD410...sounded GREAT!

Percy