Salesman's Pitch - I'd Like Your Thoughts
12-01-01, 05:35 AM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Salesman's Pitch - I'd Like Your Thoughts
OK I have the following setup scheduled for install next weekend:
SPEAKERS ~$450 ea. set *I'll be doing both front and rears*
Bostons - 65 Pros
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/Prod...D=4&SeriesID=20
SUB ~180
JL Audio - 10W3 - D4
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/10w3.html
AMP ~450
Alpine V12 MRV-F357
http://www.alpine1.com/html/D2_n_1_n_n.html
LSS, my new contact (my previous one left) and I had a discussion about a fax I sent him yesterday with some questions and concerns I had before the install.
FISRT: he tried to sell me a JL Amp the 500/5
http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/5005.html
ONE, because its stronger
TWO, it will not require "high level to RCA" adapters
Sounds good, but when I researched it, it drives more power to the fronts (100) and much less (25) to the rears, BUT has more power going to the sub (250) than the Apline (100)
I asked him about this, and he said it was usual for the higher end amps to do this "most of your enjoyment comes from your fronts".
Well, the JL is $800 vs the Alpine $450.
Q1: does JL make a good amp
Q2: if I do this $350 increase, I'll more than likely remove the tweeters from the rears to help cost allocation - I've been told they are not crucial to sound quality in the rears (-$200) - the other thought I had was using the OEM wire in the front pillar locations, NOT the XPHP wire that I am upgrading to in the rest of the vehicle
Q3: would you Dynamat the front doors, or all? I'm leaning towards just the fronts
Q4 if I go with the JL, would you upgrade the power cable to 2 Ga
I'm looking for some direction, because I want to do it right, not cheaply, but I want to maximize dollar, y'know?
Oh, and to clarify an earlier post,
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...threadid=27718
the Power Cable is 4 Ga, not the Speaker cable, my initial misunderstanding
The power cable they are using currently with my planned setup is a 4 Ga.
So, hit me with some feedback guys!
Thanks a bunch
SPEAKERS ~$450 ea. set *I'll be doing both front and rears*
Bostons - 65 Pros
http://www.bostonacoustics.com/Prod...D=4&SeriesID=20
SUB ~180
JL Audio - 10W3 - D4
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/10w3.html
AMP ~450
Alpine V12 MRV-F357
http://www.alpine1.com/html/D2_n_1_n_n.html
LSS, my new contact (my previous one left) and I had a discussion about a fax I sent him yesterday with some questions and concerns I had before the install.
FISRT: he tried to sell me a JL Amp the 500/5
http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/5005.html
ONE, because its stronger
TWO, it will not require "high level to RCA" adapters
Sounds good, but when I researched it, it drives more power to the fronts (100) and much less (25) to the rears, BUT has more power going to the sub (250) than the Apline (100)
I asked him about this, and he said it was usual for the higher end amps to do this "most of your enjoyment comes from your fronts".
Well, the JL is $800 vs the Alpine $450.
Q1: does JL make a good amp
Q2: if I do this $350 increase, I'll more than likely remove the tweeters from the rears to help cost allocation - I've been told they are not crucial to sound quality in the rears (-$200) - the other thought I had was using the OEM wire in the front pillar locations, NOT the XPHP wire that I am upgrading to in the rest of the vehicle
Q3: would you Dynamat the front doors, or all? I'm leaning towards just the fronts
Q4 if I go with the JL, would you upgrade the power cable to 2 Ga
I'm looking for some direction, because I want to do it right, not cheaply, but I want to maximize dollar, y'know?
Oh, and to clarify an earlier post,
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...threadid=27718
the Power Cable is 4 Ga, not the Speaker cable, my initial misunderstanding
The power cable they are using currently with my planned setup is a 4 Ga.So, hit me with some feedback guys!
Thanks a bunch
12-01-01, 01:53 PM
#2
Search Function Inc.
The salesman is right about the use of the front speakers. If everything is set up correctly you do not need any rear speakers.
Look at it this way, if you are at a concert, all the sound comes from the soundstage in front of you. What you need to do is to set up your speakers so that this "soundstage" appear in front of your dash board on about your eye level height. Even during the competitions the rear speakers are always turned off. I don't even have rear speakers and i still get great surround that sound naturaly. Just make sure the installer knows how to aim the speakers.
JL amps are good. The only problem with them is that they are overprised and overhyped. For this kind of cash you can get a much better amp.
Look at it this way, if you are at a concert, all the sound comes from the soundstage in front of you. What you need to do is to set up your speakers so that this "soundstage" appear in front of your dash board on about your eye level height. Even during the competitions the rear speakers are always turned off. I don't even have rear speakers and i still get great surround that sound naturaly. Just make sure the installer knows how to aim the speakers.
JL amps are good. The only problem with them is that they are overprised and overhyped. For this kind of cash you can get a much better amp.
12-01-01, 02:08 PM
#3
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Agree with Retro...I don't have rear speakers at all...I hate hearing anything coming from the back...however some people say that even in a concert you hear some sound from the rear due to reflections and what not....I had rear speakers in my old setup w/o tweeters and attenuated by 8dB....it's not bad...but really not all that noticeable for a lot of people (my mom...my girlfriend...and people who generally don't care) I know Percy has rear speakers though...it's all a matter of opinion....
For the price...I would check out ARC...Im pretty surprised at the performance for the price.....Xtants are great too...if you can find them cheap....
For $450, I'd seriously look into Dyns...You can find some at $550 on the net......
Without rear speakers...your can easily get a quality 4 channel amp and bridge 2 channels for the sub....this way it'll keep your costs down...hell...for 800 bucks (amp) ....you have a LOT of options...
For the price...I would check out ARC...Im pretty surprised at the performance for the price.....Xtants are great too...if you can find them cheap....
For $450, I'd seriously look into Dyns...You can find some at $550 on the net......
Without rear speakers...your can easily get a quality 4 channel amp and bridge 2 channels for the sub....this way it'll keep your costs down...hell...for 800 bucks (amp) ....you have a LOT of options...
12-01-01, 03:41 PM
#5
Moderator - Electronics Forum
There are two schools of thought to this.
Retro and Amlin423 are both right. During a concert, all the sounds are coming from the front. There are sound reflections bouncing off walls, people, etc and this makes a little bit of difference. Also, there are some competitors which will NOT use the rear speakers.
I have rear speakers in my setup and they are attenuated (toned down) by a good amount. There are some tricks that you can do to increase the spaciousness and depth of overall sound. Just change the phase of the rear speakers and make sure it's toned down. If it's done correctly it'll sound like an excellent DTS/AC3/Dolby Digital setup. But, it has to be done with some care.
There were two systems that I've listened to that have had only front speakers. McIntosh's demo vehicle, a 325i and a Sony XESZ50 demo vehicle which was in a Toyota.
With the Mc, the soundstage had a frowning effect mainly due to the kickpods installed. System tuning was off by a little bit but the soundstage didn't convince me, plus the stage sounded too narrow. Not good. Disappointing for a McIntosh demo vehicle. McIntosh MCD410, MX406, Mc 5.25 inch speaker sets, MC420M amp, MC440M amp, MC443M amp, MEQ453 8 band, 2 channel parametric eq modules, MEP450 power supply with MEC457 parametric controller.
Now for the Sony XESZ50 demo vehicle. This thing was more loaded than Earl Zausmer's "wannabe winner everytime by changing IASCA rules" Bimmer. XESZ50 head unit/changer/tuner, XES H50 ribbon tweeters mounted high on dash, XES midwoofers (the 1 ohm type w/ frequency range of 40 to 8k (!), dual 12 inch XES subs, and 3 of their XES series amps. Very high end setup and a bit out of tune. After about 15 minutes worth of tuning, the VP of the company was impressed with my abilities and ear. Soundstage was a bit better with the tweeter being at eye level. No frowning, even though the midwoofers were mounted in the doors. Bass was a bit sloppy, but then I'm used to a Velodyne, not a Sony non servo sub. Depth was NOT convincing. I expected to hear rear sound reflections, something present at pretty much every concert event that I've been to. Good, but not really quite there.
On both occasions I've invited them to listen to my vehicle afterwords. Their reply was a jawdrop and disbelief at the soundstage and depth. Just for grins, right after the XES demo vehicle, I remarked "drop in the Dyns". He agreed but it was the Sony demo vehicle only.
I'd rather have the additional speakers in the rear, provided that they're properly tuned out and padded down. This sounded the most convincing to me.
Your call. I just prefer them with the rear speakers in place. More tricks can be done.
Percy
Retro and Amlin423 are both right. During a concert, all the sounds are coming from the front. There are sound reflections bouncing off walls, people, etc and this makes a little bit of difference. Also, there are some competitors which will NOT use the rear speakers.
I have rear speakers in my setup and they are attenuated (toned down) by a good amount. There are some tricks that you can do to increase the spaciousness and depth of overall sound. Just change the phase of the rear speakers and make sure it's toned down. If it's done correctly it'll sound like an excellent DTS/AC3/Dolby Digital setup. But, it has to be done with some care.
There were two systems that I've listened to that have had only front speakers. McIntosh's demo vehicle, a 325i and a Sony XESZ50 demo vehicle which was in a Toyota.
With the Mc, the soundstage had a frowning effect mainly due to the kickpods installed. System tuning was off by a little bit but the soundstage didn't convince me, plus the stage sounded too narrow. Not good. Disappointing for a McIntosh demo vehicle. McIntosh MCD410, MX406, Mc 5.25 inch speaker sets, MC420M amp, MC440M amp, MC443M amp, MEQ453 8 band, 2 channel parametric eq modules, MEP450 power supply with MEC457 parametric controller.
Now for the Sony XESZ50 demo vehicle. This thing was more loaded than Earl Zausmer's "wannabe winner everytime by changing IASCA rules" Bimmer. XESZ50 head unit/changer/tuner, XES H50 ribbon tweeters mounted high on dash, XES midwoofers (the 1 ohm type w/ frequency range of 40 to 8k (!), dual 12 inch XES subs, and 3 of their XES series amps. Very high end setup and a bit out of tune. After about 15 minutes worth of tuning, the VP of the company was impressed with my abilities and ear. Soundstage was a bit better with the tweeter being at eye level. No frowning, even though the midwoofers were mounted in the doors. Bass was a bit sloppy, but then I'm used to a Velodyne, not a Sony non servo sub. Depth was NOT convincing. I expected to hear rear sound reflections, something present at pretty much every concert event that I've been to. Good, but not really quite there.
On both occasions I've invited them to listen to my vehicle afterwords. Their reply was a jawdrop and disbelief at the soundstage and depth. Just for grins, right after the XES demo vehicle, I remarked "drop in the Dyns". He agreed but it was the Sony demo vehicle only.
I'd rather have the additional speakers in the rear, provided that they're properly tuned out and padded down. This sounded the most convincing to me.
Your call. I just prefer them with the rear speakers in place. More tricks can be done.
Percy
12-01-01, 03:50 PM
#6
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
Wow, you guys are over my head now, but I appreciate the answers.
Forgive me if this is a silly question, but if I don't have any speakers in back, then wouldn't my passengers hear mostly bass from the sub right behind their heads? Granted, some of teh highs will bounce around to them I guess.
I'm not going to try to create a concert for my passengers or anything, but I think they should be able to hear some decent tones too - also, I don't carry around a lot of people frequently in my back seat, buyt not having speakers back there seems unusual to me. I will have speakers in back, that, I'm pretty sure of.
FWIW, I don't plan on doing competitions, I just want some clean tunes, tight deep bass, and good quality.
Should I only 'mat' the front doors?
Thanks again guys.
Forgive me if this is a silly question, but if I don't have any speakers in back, then wouldn't my passengers hear mostly bass from the sub right behind their heads? Granted, some of teh highs will bounce around to them I guess.
I'm not going to try to create a concert for my passengers or anything, but I think they should be able to hear some decent tones too - also, I don't carry around a lot of people frequently in my back seat, buyt not having speakers back there seems unusual to me. I will have speakers in back, that, I'm pretty sure of.
FWIW, I don't plan on doing competitions, I just want some clean tunes, tight deep bass, and good quality.
Should I only 'mat' the front doors?
Thanks again guys.
12-01-01, 05:55 PM
#7
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Yep. All the passengers in the rear will hear is the bass. They'll get headaches if they're normal people. However, if they're SPL guys/gals, then they'll be happy.
Percy
Percy
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12-01-01, 11:59 PM
#8
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I don't know if dynamitting the Lex would make a BIG difference since it's already a quiet vehicle...I did it just for piece of mind..I used something similar to dynamat along with deflex panels to get rid of standing waves...I think this would be more important than the dynamat however I haven't heard my system w/out the dynamat and the deflex so I couldn't compare....
if you don't have rear speakers...it would sound pretty bad for the people in the rear seats...but I rarely have rear passengers so it's not a big deal for me....
like I said in the previous post...i'd recommend Xtant..i used to have the 3300c ...a 3 channel amp that has 2 passive channels you can use for rears...the equivalent model # would be x603 now...if you go to www.xtant.com......I loved it...I had an Alpine V12 before the xtant and man..xtant was a LOT smoother but a freaking BIT** to install......but that was over 5 years ago...so the Alpine could be much better now...
sorry off topic: I lost Percy's email...
Percy..I haven't had the time to tune my system...did you do everything by ear? No RTA? What materials did you use to tune again? geez..I never used a parametric eq before.....I don't know what the response looks like with the various Q's so i'm not sure how it'll affect it everytime I change it...all i know is high Q narrow bandwidth and vice versa... Could I cheat and just get your settings?
if you don't have rear speakers...it would sound pretty bad for the people in the rear seats...but I rarely have rear passengers so it's not a big deal for me....
like I said in the previous post...i'd recommend Xtant..i used to have the 3300c ...a 3 channel amp that has 2 passive channels you can use for rears...the equivalent model # would be x603 now...if you go to www.xtant.com......I loved it...I had an Alpine V12 before the xtant and man..xtant was a LOT smoother but a freaking BIT** to install......but that was over 5 years ago...so the Alpine could be much better now...
sorry off topic: I lost Percy's email...
Percy..I haven't had the time to tune my system...did you do everything by ear? No RTA? What materials did you use to tune again? geez..I never used a parametric eq before.....I don't know what the response looks like with the various Q's so i'm not sure how it'll affect it everytime I change it...all i know is high Q narrow bandwidth and vice versa... Could I cheat and just get your settings?
12-02-01, 08:07 AM
#9
Moderator - Electronics Forum
amlin423,
The settings will be different if you're using a different processor, interconnects, etc.
I'll always try to tune everything by ear since the RTA is just used as a baseline. Saves your ears for more critical stuff rather than tiring them out.
What's your current configuration?
Percy
esotar330@ameritech.net
The settings will be different if you're using a different processor, interconnects, etc.
I'll always try to tune everything by ear since the RTA is just used as a baseline. Saves your ears for more critical stuff rather than tiring them out.
What's your current configuration?
Percy
esotar330@ameritech.net
12-02-01, 11:52 AM
#10
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you didn't check out my install i posted two weeks back? I'm really hurt!
...j/k
kinda similar to yours: except 15K cheaper
mcintosh mcc444
men455
meq451
mec 459
dynaudio 240
arc audio 2100cxl
alpine cva1005/dva5205
stinger stuff
rammat and deflex
using hsu research sub now..waiting for Aliantes
oops..sorry..i just noticed Percy's mail...i'll email from now on...sorry Dexter...last digressing post....
Andrew
...j/k kinda similar to yours: except 15K cheaper
mcintosh mcc444
men455
meq451
mec 459
dynaudio 240
arc audio 2100cxl
alpine cva1005/dva5205
stinger stuff
rammat and deflex
using hsu research sub now..waiting for Aliantes
oops..sorry..i just noticed Percy's mail...i'll email from now on...sorry Dexter...last digressing post....
Andrew
12-02-01, 05:37 PM
#11
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Andrew,
Try this. Save the settings you have now on one memory. BOTH the crossover and the parametrics. Write them down just in case. Clear everything to flat for the parametric and type in these settings.
-4db, 1khz, .7 Q
-3db, 2.5khz, .7 Q
+4db, 100hz, .7 Q
+2db, 10khz, .7Q
-3db, 3.3khz, .7Q
Now for the crossover
Low low pass, 100hz, 24db, +5db
Mid high pass, 70hz,24db, +3db
Mid low pass, 4khz, 24db, +3db
High high pass, 3khz, 12db, +2db
Let me know how this sounds. These are MILD settings. My system is NOT hooked up yet and I'm still running the stock system with the Dyns and Vel speakers. Have to finish the book, work on the head unit veneer and then hook everything all up.
What are your current settings for the eq and xover?
Percy
Try this. Save the settings you have now on one memory. BOTH the crossover and the parametrics. Write them down just in case. Clear everything to flat for the parametric and type in these settings.
-4db, 1khz, .7 Q
-3db, 2.5khz, .7 Q
+4db, 100hz, .7 Q
+2db, 10khz, .7Q
-3db, 3.3khz, .7Q
Now for the crossover
Low low pass, 100hz, 24db, +5db
Mid high pass, 70hz,24db, +3db
Mid low pass, 4khz, 24db, +3db
High high pass, 3khz, 12db, +2db
Let me know how this sounds. These are MILD settings. My system is NOT hooked up yet and I'm still running the stock system with the Dyns and Vel speakers. Have to finish the book, work on the head unit veneer and then hook everything all up.
What are your current settings for the eq and xover?
Percy
12-02-01, 06:19 PM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
My Input
Dex - I guess I fall somewhere between Percy & Retro/Andrew. I have just 8" midbasses in my rear doors which provide the majority of the everyday bass. I've got switches to shut down each amp so I keep the subs off except for the SPL portions of contests. For the SQ portion, I kill both the 12's & 8's & rely on the kicks ( for highs & midrange ) & the front door 6.5" for midbass/bass. The RF Symmetry's great for multiple EQ settings & X-over points. If U plan on carrying rear seat passengers frequently, I'd install that second set of Bostons back there as my passengers complain about not hearing any highs/vocals back there - they don't understand that it's a competition system. I'm in agreement with Master P about wanting SOME "rear fill" to reproduce the reflected sound he mentioned. Truthfully, I was at a concert where the music came from behind me but then my friends turned my drunk butt around!!
I also agree with Retro's opinion of JL amps - solid but overpriced. If U're planning on a single amp to power the whole system & decide to put components in the rear doors, why not use the Alpine MRD-F752 amp? It's still a V-12 with a 250 watt class D power supply for the sub but ( I think ) an AB power supply of 75 wrms x 4 for the rest of the channels. This would give ya more power to the rear door speakers - don't think the JL 500/5 with only 25 wrms to the rear speakers would be worth changing to Bostons. It also goes for about the same price as the JL. As far as Dynamat goes, I did all 4 doors but I put those Diamonds in the rear ones. The GS is, as Amlin said, very well soundproofed from the factory but the extra deadening material won't hurt, especially in the front doors where the majority of the sound is omitted. Lots of good info & varied opinions so be sure & let YOUR ears be the judges!!
I also agree with Retro's opinion of JL amps - solid but overpriced. If U're planning on a single amp to power the whole system & decide to put components in the rear doors, why not use the Alpine MRD-F752 amp? It's still a V-12 with a 250 watt class D power supply for the sub but ( I think ) an AB power supply of 75 wrms x 4 for the rest of the channels. This would give ya more power to the rear door speakers - don't think the JL 500/5 with only 25 wrms to the rear speakers would be worth changing to Bostons. It also goes for about the same price as the JL. As far as Dynamat goes, I did all 4 doors but I put those Diamonds in the rear ones. The GS is, as Amlin said, very well soundproofed from the factory but the extra deadening material won't hurt, especially in the front doors where the majority of the sound is omitted. Lots of good info & varied opinions so be sure & let YOUR ears be the judges!!
12-02-01, 08:34 PM
#13
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MG....I considered having midbass for the rears like yours ...no higher than 500-750 Hz...or whatever midbass freq regions is.....I thought i had to make more baffles for the rear so I quickly killed the idea....i was wrong...but i'm pretty happy with my sound now so I don't want to mess with it
Percy:
Thanks man...i feel guilty taking your settings since you've obviously spent lots of time on it...this would give me a good idea where the peaks and dips are ...I don't have any settings yet...as I don't really have time to sit and play with it recently....what music do you use to tune? oh...and I have the MEN455 which only has 24dB cut off for the sub...others are fixed at 12dB.....why are there boosts and attenuation on the x-over settings....i thought that's what the EQ was for....oh well....
Percy:
Thanks man...i feel guilty taking your settings since you've obviously spent lots of time on it...this would give me a good idea where the peaks and dips are ...I don't have any settings yet...as I don't really have time to sit and play with it recently....what music do you use to tune? oh...and I have the MEN455 which only has 24dB cut off for the sub...others are fixed at 12dB.....why are there boosts and attenuation on the x-over settings....i thought that's what the EQ was for....oh well....
12-02-01, 09:38 PM
#14
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Andrew,
The boost settings are for general level settings which will effect the entire range the crossover is working in. Sorta like a seperate remove input level control...without having to reach back a few feet to the trunk and manually adjust the settings. Make sure the amps are all set to the same approximate level. You may want to start off at a lower sensitivity level (2v setting) rather than the ultra sensitive level (.2 v setting).
Now the boost and cuts on the parametric eq, that's for correcting the dips and peaks of the frequency response. The levels that I gave you are best guesses. I don't have the system plugged in yet. I won't have it plugged in for a while as things are keeping me busy!
Percy
The boost settings are for general level settings which will effect the entire range the crossover is working in. Sorta like a seperate remove input level control...without having to reach back a few feet to the trunk and manually adjust the settings. Make sure the amps are all set to the same approximate level. You may want to start off at a lower sensitivity level (2v setting) rather than the ultra sensitive level (.2 v setting).
Now the boost and cuts on the parametric eq, that's for correcting the dips and peaks of the frequency response. The levels that I gave you are best guesses. I don't have the system plugged in yet. I won't have it plugged in for a while as things are keeping me busy!
Percy
12-03-01, 06:04 AM
#15
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Dexter,
I'm definitely NOT one of the resident audio guru's but I'll offer my thoughts because the systems we are planning are almost the same (except Diamond Hex Series for the Boston's). I agree with MG about the Alpine amp, there aren't too many 5 channel amps that are rated as well as the MRD-F752 for the price. About the rear speaker issue, I have no plans to compete and I do have family and friends in the back often so it is important to me to have a nice sounding system in the rear. I'd like to think that somewhere down the road I'll have a 5.1 system in the LS so full-range speakers will be needed (if I could just figure out where to put a center channel speaker). I also think a layer or two of a dampening material would be worth it but the laws of diminishing returns kick in pretty quick with that stuff.
Percy, Mene Gene, what are your thoughts on the Diamond Audio silk or aluminum tweets???
I'm definitely NOT one of the resident audio guru's but I'll offer my thoughts because the systems we are planning are almost the same (except Diamond Hex Series for the Boston's). I agree with MG about the Alpine amp, there aren't too many 5 channel amps that are rated as well as the MRD-F752 for the price. About the rear speaker issue, I have no plans to compete and I do have family and friends in the back often so it is important to me to have a nice sounding system in the rear. I'd like to think that somewhere down the road I'll have a 5.1 system in the LS so full-range speakers will be needed (if I could just figure out where to put a center channel speaker). I also think a layer or two of a dampening material would be worth it but the laws of diminishing returns kick in pretty quick with that stuff.
Percy, Mene Gene, what are your thoughts on the Diamond Audio silk or aluminum tweets???