Replacing my blown 8" ML Sub in my LS430
06-15-07, 01:03 PM
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Replacing my blown 8" ML Sub in my LS430
So, from reading all of the info on this board about the lack of decent 8" Free Air Subs and not wanting a separate enclosure. I am taking the advice of a fellow CL member and replacing the sub in the original location and attaching a box to it and of course adding an amp. I am looking for a clean sounding bass. I am looking at getting a JL sub and possibly a MTX or Rockford amp. But I am open to suggestions. 
Thanks guys!!
Thanks guys!!
06-15-07, 03:18 PM
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if you want something small get a 10" jl w7 with a 500/1 jl amp...its expensive but it will kick, and since you have an ls430, im guessing price isnt too much of an issue
06-15-07, 04:22 PM
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Right now I am looking at the JL 8W3v2 8" Sub with the RF Punch P300-1 Amp. Will that do the job?
06-21-07, 09:09 PM
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I have searched everywhere on this site about a IB - Free air sub and all I found was the Image Dynamics ID series. The ML sub sucks! But haven't heard anyone that installed it and their results. So I guess I will order it and hopefully it will give me the results that I am looking for. Well....here I go!
06-22-07, 12:20 AM
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I'm running a powerbase extreme15 in an IB, and like what I hear. I will be pushing it with 500RMSx2 when I get my amps put in, so Its currently running off the OEM amp (yuk... but useable). Its a low-ish Qts sub, so it doesn't have that nightclub "thumpy-dumpy" kind of sound, but has some smooth extension.
High Qts subs have always been associated with IB installs. But I tend to prefer the sonics of lower Qts models. So... depending on your sonic preferences, subs that are marketed as "IB" may not appeal to you.
technically... car audio infinite baffles are not infinite at all. They are defined by the acoustic properties and air volume of your trunk.
Heres a great IB forum. Most of it is HT related, but much of the acoustics nad physics behind it all can be used in the car.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/
Heres a pic of what I have so far....
High Qts subs have always been associated with IB installs. But I tend to prefer the sonics of lower Qts models. So... depending on your sonic preferences, subs that are marketed as "IB" may not appeal to you.
technically... car audio infinite baffles are not infinite at all. They are defined by the acoustic properties and air volume of your trunk.
Heres a great IB forum. Most of it is HT related, but much of the acoustics nad physics behind it all can be used in the car.
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/
Heres a pic of what I have so far....
Last edited by kramer5150; 06-22-07 at 12:27 AM.
06-22-07, 05:44 AM
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If you read Kramer's link above, you will find that there are no home theater subs that are labled "IB" or "free air". That's just a marketing term. You have to look at the Thiele/Small parameters and model the sub in a very large sealed enclosure to really determine how well it will work in an IB install.
I recommend the 9kv.2 from Elemental Designs if you are on a budget. If you have the money, the TC Sounds 8" TC-1000 or the Soundsplinter RL-i 8 will work great. These subs all some something in common. A relatively low Fs, a medium Qts (.3 to .5) and a long xmax (12mm to 20mm). Since you have no air spring to control the motion of the cone, a long throw sub is your best bet. The more excursion the less chance you will have of bottoming it out.
-Robert
I recommend the 9kv.2 from Elemental Designs if you are on a budget. If you have the money, the TC Sounds 8" TC-1000 or the Soundsplinter RL-i 8 will work great. These subs all some something in common. A relatively low Fs, a medium Qts (.3 to .5) and a long xmax (12mm to 20mm). Since you have no air spring to control the motion of the cone, a long throw sub is your best bet. The more excursion the less chance you will have of bottoming it out.
-Robert
06-22-07, 10:11 AM
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If you read Kramer's link above, you will find that there are no home theater subs that are labled "IB" or "free air". That's just a marketing term. You have to look at the Thiele/Small parameters and model the sub in a very large sealed enclosure to really determine how well it will work in an IB install.
I recommend the 9kv.2 from Elemental Designs if you are on a budget. If you have the money, the TC Sounds 8" TC-1000 or the Soundsplinter RL-i 8 will work great. These subs all some something in common. A relatively low Fs, a medium Qts (.3 to .5) and a long xmax (12mm to 20mm). Since you have no air spring to control the motion of the cone, a long throw sub is your best bet. The more excursion the less chance you will have of bottoming it out.
-Robert
I recommend the 9kv.2 from Elemental Designs if you are on a budget. If you have the money, the TC Sounds 8" TC-1000 or the Soundsplinter RL-i 8 will work great. These subs all some something in common. A relatively low Fs, a medium Qts (.3 to .5) and a long xmax (12mm to 20mm). Since you have no air spring to control the motion of the cone, a long throw sub is your best bet. The more excursion the less chance you will have of bottoming it out.
-Robert
I think I am going to shoot myself now. I was looking at the ID and the TC-1000 for about a week and was going back and forth between the two...doing a ton of research on this board and both ID and TC forums. I ordered the ID yesterday. I am going to try to cancel my order...if not I guess I'm stuck with it.
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06-22-07, 01:43 PM
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You are never "stuck" with a sub. You just put it in your sub inventory for later use. That's what I tell my wife when she asked why I have 30 subs raning from 8" to 15" (no 18's YET).
If you have the skills, I'd go with a shallow 10" like the one from ED. Make a mounting ring out of MDF and seal it to your deck under the existing sub hole. Then mount the sub into the ring. That gives you the surface area of a 10" speaker without sacrificing much trunk.
-Robert
If you have the skills, I'd go with a shallow 10" like the one from ED. Make a mounting ring out of MDF and seal it to your deck under the existing sub hole. Then mount the sub into the ring. That gives you the surface area of a 10" speaker without sacrificing much trunk.
-Robert
Last edited by Robert_J; 06-22-07 at 01:49 PM.
06-23-07, 08:45 PM
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I have the same situation as Hudini; I want to replace my blown 8" Mark Levinson subwoofer in my LS. This is going to be a little long but I am really close to a decision and I'm hoping more background will help out those that can help me and the others like Hudini and me that just want a reasonable solution to this mess.
My first step on the blown speaker was to take it out and have a tech with a national reputation of speaker rebuilding fix the speaker. He was leery because the construction of the speaker was, not surprising, not standard; but he thought he could do it. In four months it has blown again. The rubber ring has come unglued from the cone. I can take it back and have him fix it for free, but it will likely break again. I don't want to keep taking the speaker out even though it is rather easy the second time (I've already taken it out again).
Fixing it doesn't feel like it will work so I would rather replace the speaker and don't want to pay the $200+ for the junky stock speaker. I had better speakers in my Zenith stereo system in 1973, so an upgrade would be nice.
From my research here and there I have found that the ML subwoofer has different Ohms than normal. From this site it seems like the speaker is 16 Ohm. Some local car audio guy said it was 2 Ohm. My good bud with the electrical engineering degree says that it is ok to go from a 2 Ohm to 4 Ohm but not the other way. You lose a little sound going to 4 ohm from 2 but from 2 from 4 taxes the amp too much and can fry it. So one of my problems is that if the ML subwoofer is 16 ohm, going to a 4 or 8 ohm speaker, I risk burning up the stock amp, which again, I don't want to change out. I want a simple solution to this; I just want to replace the speaker.
From my limited knowledge hunting around, there are two free-air speakers that might work if I can go 2 Ohm. Hudini mentions the Image Dynamics, which if you go the dual core 4 Ohm, you can wire it for 2 Ohm, although I am not sure if it will fit in the bracket. Another is an MTX, which again I'm not sure will fit the bracket. The specs say they shouldn't but I saw the post of the guy replacing his LS subwoofer with a JL W0 and it is not supposed to fit either. (If you are reading this, thanks for that post!!) Also, according to the specs on the JL, it is 4 Ohm (I think it was 4 ohm). As an aside, in the JL post, when you get the seat pulled back, pull up the front edge of the back deck, it sticks on the sides and can give you a headache until you figure that out. Once you do, you can lift it up and easily get to the speaker.
So what has all this babbling lead me to? If someone could tell me what the heck the LS 430 ML subwoofer Ohm rating is would be a ton of help. If I can't replace the stock speaker with any kind of similar spec 8 inch, I will start trying to figure out an alternative. I think Hudini is the right one to ask about that. Hudini; if you can add anything here about what you have found would be great help!!
My first step on the blown speaker was to take it out and have a tech with a national reputation of speaker rebuilding fix the speaker. He was leery because the construction of the speaker was, not surprising, not standard; but he thought he could do it. In four months it has blown again. The rubber ring has come unglued from the cone. I can take it back and have him fix it for free, but it will likely break again. I don't want to keep taking the speaker out even though it is rather easy the second time (I've already taken it out again).
Fixing it doesn't feel like it will work so I would rather replace the speaker and don't want to pay the $200+ for the junky stock speaker. I had better speakers in my Zenith stereo system in 1973, so an upgrade would be nice.
From my research here and there I have found that the ML subwoofer has different Ohms than normal. From this site it seems like the speaker is 16 Ohm. Some local car audio guy said it was 2 Ohm. My good bud with the electrical engineering degree says that it is ok to go from a 2 Ohm to 4 Ohm but not the other way. You lose a little sound going to 4 ohm from 2 but from 2 from 4 taxes the amp too much and can fry it. So one of my problems is that if the ML subwoofer is 16 ohm, going to a 4 or 8 ohm speaker, I risk burning up the stock amp, which again, I don't want to change out. I want a simple solution to this; I just want to replace the speaker.
From my limited knowledge hunting around, there are two free-air speakers that might work if I can go 2 Ohm. Hudini mentions the Image Dynamics, which if you go the dual core 4 Ohm, you can wire it for 2 Ohm, although I am not sure if it will fit in the bracket. Another is an MTX, which again I'm not sure will fit the bracket. The specs say they shouldn't but I saw the post of the guy replacing his LS subwoofer with a JL W0 and it is not supposed to fit either. (If you are reading this, thanks for that post!!) Also, according to the specs on the JL, it is 4 Ohm (I think it was 4 ohm). As an aside, in the JL post, when you get the seat pulled back, pull up the front edge of the back deck, it sticks on the sides and can give you a headache until you figure that out. Once you do, you can lift it up and easily get to the speaker.
So what has all this babbling lead me to? If someone could tell me what the heck the LS 430 ML subwoofer Ohm rating is would be a ton of help. If I can't replace the stock speaker with any kind of similar spec 8 inch, I will start trying to figure out an alternative. I think Hudini is the right one to ask about that. Hudini; if you can add anything here about what you have found would be great help!!
06-24-07, 12:03 AM
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I have the same situation as Hudini; I want to replace my blown 8" Mark Levinson subwoofer in my LS. This is going to be a little long but I am really close to a decision and I'm hoping more background will help out those that can help me and the others like Hudini and me that just want a reasonable solution to this mess.
My first step on the blown speaker was to take it out and have a tech with a national reputation of speaker rebuilding fix the speaker. He was leery because the construction of the speaker was, not surprising, not standard; but he thought he could do it. In four months it has blown again. The rubber ring has come unglued from the cone. I can take it back and have him fix it for free, but it will likely break again. I don't want to keep taking the speaker out even though it is rather easy the second time (I've already taken it out again).
Fixing it doesn't feel like it will work so I would rather replace the speaker and don't want to pay the $200+ for the junky stock speaker. I had better speakers in my Zenith stereo system in 1973, so an upgrade would be nice.
From my research here and there I have found that the ML subwoofer has different Ohms than normal. From this site it seems like the speaker is 16 Ohm. Some local car audio guy said it was 2 Ohm. My good bud with the electrical engineering degree says that it is ok to go from a 2 Ohm to 4 Ohm but not the other way. You lose a little sound going to 4 ohm from 2 but from 2 from 4 taxes the amp too much and can fry it. So one of my problems is that if the ML subwoofer is 16 ohm, going to a 4 or 8 ohm speaker, I risk burning up the stock amp, which again, I don't want to change out. I want a simple solution to this; I just want to replace the speaker.
From my limited knowledge hunting around, there are two free-air speakers that might work if I can go 2 Ohm. Hudini mentions the Image Dynamics, which if you go the dual core 4 Ohm, you can wire it for 2 Ohm, although I am not sure if it will fit in the bracket. Another is an MTX, which again I'm not sure will fit the bracket. The specs say they shouldn't but I saw the post of the guy replacing his LS subwoofer with a JL W0 and it is not supposed to fit either. (If you are reading this, thanks for that post!!) Also, according to the specs on the JL, it is 4 Ohm (I think it was 4 ohm). As an aside, in the JL post, when you get the seat pulled back, pull up the front edge of the back deck, it sticks on the sides and can give you a headache until you figure that out. Once you do, you can lift it up and easily get to the speaker.
So what has all this babbling lead me to? If someone could tell me what the heck the LS 430 ML subwoofer Ohm rating is would be a ton of help. If I can't replace the stock speaker with any kind of similar spec 8 inch, I will start trying to figure out an alternative. I think Hudini is the right one to ask about that. Hudini; if you can add anything here about what you have found would be great help!!
My first step on the blown speaker was to take it out and have a tech with a national reputation of speaker rebuilding fix the speaker. He was leery because the construction of the speaker was, not surprising, not standard; but he thought he could do it. In four months it has blown again. The rubber ring has come unglued from the cone. I can take it back and have him fix it for free, but it will likely break again. I don't want to keep taking the speaker out even though it is rather easy the second time (I've already taken it out again).
Fixing it doesn't feel like it will work so I would rather replace the speaker and don't want to pay the $200+ for the junky stock speaker. I had better speakers in my Zenith stereo system in 1973, so an upgrade would be nice.
From my research here and there I have found that the ML subwoofer has different Ohms than normal. From this site it seems like the speaker is 16 Ohm. Some local car audio guy said it was 2 Ohm. My good bud with the electrical engineering degree says that it is ok to go from a 2 Ohm to 4 Ohm but not the other way. You lose a little sound going to 4 ohm from 2 but from 2 from 4 taxes the amp too much and can fry it. So one of my problems is that if the ML subwoofer is 16 ohm, going to a 4 or 8 ohm speaker, I risk burning up the stock amp, which again, I don't want to change out. I want a simple solution to this; I just want to replace the speaker.
From my limited knowledge hunting around, there are two free-air speakers that might work if I can go 2 Ohm. Hudini mentions the Image Dynamics, which if you go the dual core 4 Ohm, you can wire it for 2 Ohm, although I am not sure if it will fit in the bracket. Another is an MTX, which again I'm not sure will fit the bracket. The specs say they shouldn't but I saw the post of the guy replacing his LS subwoofer with a JL W0 and it is not supposed to fit either. (If you are reading this, thanks for that post!!) Also, according to the specs on the JL, it is 4 Ohm (I think it was 4 ohm). As an aside, in the JL post, when you get the seat pulled back, pull up the front edge of the back deck, it sticks on the sides and can give you a headache until you figure that out. Once you do, you can lift it up and easily get to the speaker.
So what has all this babbling lead me to? If someone could tell me what the heck the LS 430 ML subwoofer Ohm rating is would be a ton of help. If I can't replace the stock speaker with any kind of similar spec 8 inch, I will start trying to figure out an alternative. I think Hudini is the right one to ask about that. Hudini; if you can add anything here about what you have found would be great help!!
The other thing to consider is that subwoofer system impedance is also a function of the enclosure and vehicle acoustic properties. So just because a speaker is spec'd at 1 ohm, doesn't necessarily mean it will present a 1 ohm load to the amp.
06-24-07, 06:54 AM
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Yes there is an element of risk involved, using an amp Spec'd at say 4 ohms and using a 2 ohm speaker with it. But if the amp is over-built enough to handle the additional current, it will be fine. In my ES300 the stock pioneer sub is 2 ohms. My PB sub presents it with a 1 ohm load, and so far it hasn't cooked. But then again I don't listen to it very loud at all.
The other thing to consider is that subwoofer system impedance is also a function of the enclosure and vehicle acoustic properties. So just because a speaker is spec'd at 1 ohm, doesn't necessarily mean it will present a 1 ohm load to the amp.
The other thing to consider is that subwoofer system impedance is also a function of the enclosure and vehicle acoustic properties. So just because a speaker is spec'd at 1 ohm, doesn't necessarily mean it will present a 1 ohm load to the amp.
So if I can find out the ohms for an LS 430 ML subwoofer, I can get to work finding a solution. Of course I'm hoping it's 2. I don't need to blow out the windows subwoofer, just one that is better than the one in there (was in there) and anything would be better than that. Can I possibly use an ohm meter to test it?
06-24-07, 07:52 AM
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The technical term for that is the surround. It can be glued by down by you with a $5 tube of glue. If you want to attempt it, I'll find the retail name of the glue.
Technically, there is no "normal". I have subs that are single voice coil (SVC) 2, 4 and 8 ohms, dual voice coil (DVC) 2 and 4 ohms and even a quad voice coil that is 2 ohms. You can have single through quad configurations with resistance of .5 to 16 ohms. That gives you and the entire sub market different wiring configurations to matching your amp.
How did he determine that? Anyone can use a digital multimeter (DMM) to get the DC resistance. The nominal impedance is usually 30% higher.
It depends on the amp you use. There are amps that can easily drive a .5 ohm load but they cost a LOT.
You have it backwards and wrong. 4 to 2 may tax the amp if it is not a high quality one. Most just put out additional power. Some even double the output. 2 to 4 will half the power. Half or double the power is a plus or minus 3db difference in sound (in a perfect world).
Yes, if the ML sub is in fact 16 ohms, then you do risk burning up the amp if it is not designed to drive a lower impedance load. Most can. I wouldn't push it though by going from 16 ohms to .333 ohms. That will fry all but the best amps. You can also get a sub with a voice coil configuration that will give you a matching load.
You have hundreds of options that will work. Some better than others - Does the subwoofer have to be "free-air"?.
-Robert
How did he determine that? Anyone can use a digital multimeter (DMM) to get the DC resistance. The nominal impedance is usually 30% higher.
From my limited knowledge hunting around, there are two free-air speakers that might work if I can go 2 Ohm. Hudini mentions the Image Dynamics, which if you go the dual core 4 Ohm, you can wire it for 2 Ohm, although I am not sure if it will fit in the bracket. Another is an MTX, which again I'm not sure will fit the bracket. The specs say they shouldn't but I saw the post of the guy replacing his LS subwoofer with a JL W0 and it is not supposed to fit either. (If you are reading this, thanks for that post!!) Also, according to the specs on the JL, it is 4 Ohm (I think it was 4 ohm). As an aside, in the JL post, when you get the seat pulled back, pull up the front edge of the back deck, it sticks on the sides and can give you a headache until you figure that out. Once you do, you can lift it up and easily get to the speaker.
-Robert
06-24-07, 10:22 AM
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Thanks for the info Kramer. I'm willing to go slightly up on the ohm and I can match a lower ohm, but I need to know the original ohm. I don't want to go with 2 ohm if the stock spec is 16 as that would surely increase the risk of losing the amp. Going to 16 if it is 2 would give me no sound (from what I understand).
So if I can find out the ohms for an LS 430 ML subwoofer, I can get to work finding a solution. Of course I'm hoping it's 2. I don't need to blow out the windows subwoofer, just one that is better than the one in there (was in there) and anything would be better than that. Can I possibly use an ohm meter to test it?
So if I can find out the ohms for an LS 430 ML subwoofer, I can get to work finding a solution. Of course I'm hoping it's 2. I don't need to blow out the windows subwoofer, just one that is better than the one in there (was in there) and anything would be better than that. Can I possibly use an ohm meter to test it?
They do make impedance measuring "systems", that will plot speaker system impedance at various frequencies. But thats probably overkill.
06-24-07, 12:36 PM
#14
The shop manual also specifies the DC resistance of the subwoofer (actually, all the speakers). It's not in the electrical schematics, but the interior electrical troubleshooting manual. For my 2006 GS ML it said it's 14 ohm, and my DMM read 12. Clearly an oddball value in either case.
So if someone has the manual for your model year LS430 handy, they could look it up.
In my case , the sub was still OK but I wanted better bass quality and better control of bass gain. I knew that if I wanted to change the sub to a nice 4-ohm driver I'd need a new amp to avoid overheating the ML amp. So I started out by doing the amp mod first, which not only makes the system sound better already, it allows me the option of using a wide variety of subs if/when I decide the change it out.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=272881
So if someone has the manual for your model year LS430 handy, they could look it up.
In my case , the sub was still OK but I wanted better bass quality and better control of bass gain. I knew that if I wanted to change the sub to a nice 4-ohm driver I'd need a new amp to avoid overheating the ML amp. So I started out by doing the amp mod first, which not only makes the system sound better already, it allows me the option of using a wide variety of subs if/when I decide the change it out.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=272881
Last edited by DrexLex; 06-25-07 at 11:43 PM.
06-24-07, 12:40 PM
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Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. Robert, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions that really didn't need to be answered. All I had to do was read your earlier posts. I did learn a few things along the way so it's not all bad. (For one, I learned that the learning curve of this area is way steeper than I want to climb.) I am still a little iffy on the ohm thing. So...
I have a couple of simple questions.
(1) I tested it and the ML sub is 16 ohm. It seems that "normal" single speakers are made to be wired at 2, 4, or 8 ohms. From my understanding of your reply, I can use and 8 ohm speaker and that should be ok. Or, are you saying I can wire a single speaker (dual core or otherwise) for 16 Ohm?
(2) Are the TC-1000 and Soundsplinter worth double the price of the Elemental Design speaker? I'm guessing the difference is in build quality?
(3) As I said, the tech that worked on the speaker was leery and mentioned something about the "stiffness" of the surround. That the surround came unglued seems odd, especially if you know that it happened on a cool day, at moderately high volume, on a song with medium bass. Under those conditions, the glue shouldn't rip apart.(???) He said he would fix it for free if something happened so I guess it is worth my while to try to have it fixed. However, the Elemental Design at only $75 bucks for a new speaker is nearly the cost of the gas to get over to the speaker shop to repair a twice broken so-so speaker!! Oh, the stress of it all...
Hudini: the specs on the ID are very close to that of the Elemental Designs so you didn't make a bad decision.
I have a couple of simple questions.
(1) I tested it and the ML sub is 16 ohm. It seems that "normal" single speakers are made to be wired at 2, 4, or 8 ohms. From my understanding of your reply, I can use and 8 ohm speaker and that should be ok. Or, are you saying I can wire a single speaker (dual core or otherwise) for 16 Ohm?
(2) Are the TC-1000 and Soundsplinter worth double the price of the Elemental Design speaker? I'm guessing the difference is in build quality?
(3) As I said, the tech that worked on the speaker was leery and mentioned something about the "stiffness" of the surround. That the surround came unglued seems odd, especially if you know that it happened on a cool day, at moderately high volume, on a song with medium bass. Under those conditions, the glue shouldn't rip apart.(???) He said he would fix it for free if something happened so I guess it is worth my while to try to have it fixed. However, the Elemental Design at only $75 bucks for a new speaker is nearly the cost of the gas to get over to the speaker shop to repair a twice broken so-so speaker!! Oh, the stress of it all...
Hudini: the specs on the ID are very close to that of the Elemental Designs so you didn't make a bad decision.