RON430

OK, I was going to wait and see how I felt after a few more days but here is the story. First the install. It has already been reported that the dyns don't work with a spacer greater than 3/8 (with the 1/2 baffle) and it is the honest truth. Even a 1/2 spacer is too much, the door panel won't sit flat. I didn't modify Percy's recommendation for wiring and mounting the tweet and overall, I am not too happy. The tinsel leads are very fragile and I inadvertently stressed them way too much during the soldering and mounting. Percy, I have been noodling with seeing what the thinnest proto board I could get would be and maybe mounting in on the back or side of the tweet. The tinsel lead could make a proper connection with no strain being put on by the connecting wires. May take things apart again but that will be a while. Be very careful taking the inner door panels off and putting them back on, I got some scratches on the inner window molding although I think I can repair them easy enough. The Loctite 380 does a great job holding the Deflex. Only problem is it is black. If you think having CA glue on your hands is a pain, have black CA glue on your hands. I think that is about it for the install.

Taking into account I spent roughly $500 for the dyns and another hundred or so for various mounting bits, I think you should expect a lot. Well, you get it. I can't claim to be a car audio expert and I am sure there are other very good brands and models out there but the dyns are very, very impressive. I don't know if anyone else only replaced the speakers but the difference is substantial. If you are thinking you will work on the sub first to get more bottom end, do the dyns first if you can afford it. The dynamic range both high and low just has to be heard. There is now immediate bass that you can very much feel through your butt, the way the really low frequencies are normally enjoyed. While the staging is up front and marvelously centered. I am not sure I ever heard how good a car stereo can be and this is with the stock HU and amp. Percy - am I overreacting or do the dyns indeed make this much difference in the bass presence? If you were wondering if you could get decent sound volume with the stock unit and the dyns, don't worry, there is plenty of volume. However, if you really crank it up, I think you can now hear the weakness of the amp but for the vast majority of listening, I don't think most people will need more volume. I can't say I really listened to the ML system much but if it sounds like the dyns, it must be impressive. Eventually I will think about an amp but for now, I want to just get the speakers upgraded and there is no doubt now that I will use the dyn subwoofer. I can't believe how different this car is with bilsteins, TRD sways, and the dyns in the front doors. Impressive.

amlin423

Ron, are you going to use the Dyn sub as free air? How are you going to seal the baffle (that the sub is mounted on) to the deck.
The cabin has to be completely sealed from trunk. I love the way my sub sounds now but it's just too darn ugly with a box on that ledge. To make things worse to prevent the box from sliding into the trunk, I tied some cables on one end to those metal rings on the floor of the trunk (i have no idea what those are for but I'm using them now) and the other end to the top of the deck so the sub will be restricted in ledge area...talk about ugly...

If the image dynamics IDQ or IDMAX can be used as free air then I'd probably get it...I was told by a dyn representative that in a free air setup, no more than 200 watts should be going to the speaker..I have approx 400 so I'm not sure if I would do it but it'll definitely make things look a whole lot better.

Hopefully retro is reading this thread to answer my ID question.

RON430

There were a few others but I had narrowed down to the JL, ADS, and Dynaudio. The JL and Dyn are recommended from the factory as suitable for free air while Peter Lufrano at Autophile says the ADS A series are OK free air. If you look at the JL catalog, the free air setups are the lowest power handling. I haven't gone and listened to all these different vendors so I may not be the best judge but in the final analysis I had to balance my audio needs (I don't think I have the ears for being discerning but I am definitely not into SPL) with convenience (Mean Gene a while back said that a box would definitely provide tighter bass but the install takes more room and complexity) and performance (I know weight in the back is good but Percy raised the issue that sub boxes that are good are also heavy - I don't figure a GS needs any more weight). No surprise on other boards that I am a fan of certain brands, aren't we all (like bilstein), and I may still do some evaluating but I have to tell you, Percy did not oversell the dyns. What I still can't figure out is their impact on the bottom end. Maybe it is just the install, and that goofy Deflex, and maybe the stock setup is just that weak, but the dyns in the doors (alliteration?) expand the entire spectrum. I know they can't do what a sub can do but I seem to recall that Don Henley's Sunset Grill has a fairly sustained 40 Hz note and listening to that track on the dyns is very impressive. From my limited research, 400W continuous would be tough to handle in a free air setup, except for one of Percy's Vels, but the 12 inch Dyn would handle it intermittently. Hopefully Percy and Mean Gene and retro and others with more expertise will jump in cause I am really just enjoying the modding and not really well versed in all the different brands and capabilities. Unfortunately, when I find something I like, I tend to stay with it for a while. Dynaudio has quickly earned a very high spot in my speaker preferences. And, like I said, they are one of the few vendors who says free air is OK with their subs. With door speakers like the dyns (and soon to be ADS in the rear doors) the sub is really only going to fill in the absolute bottom end and I hope the dyn free air will provide the right balance.

Percy

Ron,

What you're experiencing is entirely normal with the Dyns. The additional surface area of the cones and the MSP technology all blend in quite nicely together. If you notice, the stock 4 incher was tuned for about 80 hz response...very peaky at that. With the Dyns, it's smooth all the way through. And this is with a stock amp, stock HU and stock wiring. Speaker changeout only. In fact, this is how I curently have it since I'm modding out more of my aftermarket stuff.

The limitations that you hear are that of the Dyns revealing EVERYTHING. Distortion is very audible, especially with electronics such as the stock HU and amp. Even when you get into the mainstream amps, there's something "missing" about them. Dyns are like a double edged sword...you upgrade and then are simply amazed at what they can do...then you push the limit on aftermarket electronics to see what the electronics can do. I still haven't topped them to their limit yet!

Let me know on the tinsel board idea. I've been very lucky so far on positioning the baffle spacer and tinsel lead.

On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being "absolute reference", how would you rate the Dyns overall?

Percy

RON430

Isn't that the way of life? As soon as you start modding, a lot of times all you do is get more fanatical, whether audio, handling, horsepower, home theater, etc. In all honesty, I feel I was lucky with the tweets as I went through far too much handling and the positioning. I am going to hunt around here and see what is the thinnest proto board we have and see if I can turn something very thin up. I don't know if it will really improve things over your process but I would just feel better. I didn't really notice the lack of bottom end until the dyns went in. I am not sure that the problem was or is the sub, because it is really only going to take over for the very lowest frequencies, but the "presence" of the lows is from the rest of the speakers. It seems obvious to me that a sub cannot make up for lack of bass from the door speakers. Is that a "Duh" and something that you experts have always known? While other guys have put the dyns in, I haven't read too many reports on the results and, as I have said, they are impressive. During the install, I had one side done and turned the radio on just to make sure that the speakers were responding and the imbalance made the dyns very weak. I must say I almost took the name of Percy in vain. The install is not super difficult but it is not like just replacing a 6X9 with an upgraded 6X9 either. I would really not want to have tackled this job without THE BOOK. When I finished up and turned things on with both sides replaced it sounded very good but it was about 1AM on Monday so I just cleaned up and packed it in. Later Monday and Tuesday I just sat and listened and, not wanting to repeat myself too many times or hype the dyns at the expense of probably some other very good speakers, but these things are impressive and worth every penny. As it stands right now, I could just about leave everything alone and be content. Might not sound the absolute greatest but it is soooo improved over the stock speakers. I have never listened to dyns before and maybe over a good aftermarket they are just marginally better, but over the stock speakers, well, it is hard to believe.

That stock speaker is an interesting setup. I didn't realize the speaker is in a full front and back sealed enclosure with a port. Shame it doesn't work better. I'll take your word for where it is "tuned" at, it isn't really obvious. Percy, one thing, I couldn't find a putty to seal the baffles I was really happy with so I used plumber's putty (and you have to, the door contours are not flat, the baffle does not sit flat against the door, is there something better to use? I notice Parts Express lists a speaker putty but it looks very thin and I had some pretty healthy gaps at a few spots.

As far as a scale of 10, I don't know. When I had just graduated from college, I went through the acquisition of fast car and most expensive stereo but I can't say that I am an audio expert. What I can say is that I think the dyns are far and away the strongest part of my current setup but all that means is that now I can hear the weakness in the other components. Does that make sense? In order to tell how good the dyns are, I figure I would have to have everything else up to their quality and that is definitely not the case. Now the questions are will (1) an aftermarket amp help if I keep the head unit volume down proportionately so I am in a low distortion area for the stock head unit/amp or (2) will you or somebody be able to get a double din bracket for the GS with trim piece to make replacing everything from the head unit out worthwhile and stock appearing? Combine that with the new 240s from dyn and this is potentially another "Neverending Story".

Percy

Ron,

An aftermarket amp will always help things out over the stock amp. As for the trim piece, there's nobody that will make one right now...except for Toyota in Japan. The Aristo has a double din mounting plate which comes standard with their bottom end radio. I don't know how much Lexus wants for these but it's as factory looking as you're going to get. Knowing Toyota, they'll probably want moocho bucks.

Percy

RON430

Hmmm. Group buy? If I could get the double din mount and trim piece that matched, I would probably get it for the shelf just in case. So is this something Steve Ganz could get? I realize it would be a ton of work, the CD changer probably would have to go, but once the bug bites....

Percy

Ron,

This is a possibility worth looking into! Do you know Steves email address?

I know the feeling...that bug has bitten me several years now and it still hits every now and then. The latest thing is modding a Sony SCD-1 SACD player. (Stereophile class A+ rated) Burning in the parts right now...so far 50 hours on the clock.

Percy

RON430

Well, I know he is SupraTRD here and I think he is gonzo4u@earthlink.net or .com. You and he are turning out to be my checking accounts worst enemies. Never talked to Steve, but use Gordon Miguel and Carson Toyota for what I have gotten in the TRD vein. If he can get the parts, I am in. Like I said, even if I put them on the shelf it would be worth it. If common sense doesn't prevail, it will be an entire swap. Darn I am getting to like this car more and more. Isn't that what it is all about? If you want to contact him, fine, you can probably describe what we want better than I can but if you want me to e mail or call him, no problem. No sense gushing about the dyns anymore but I am getting concerned that putting an amp in will not provide enough improvement if the head unit signal is not up to snuff. I have been looking at the schematics a little more. Maybe we need to noodle a little more on seeing if we can figure out some way to just bypass that stock amp. Then again, it might be diminishing returns if we can get some JDM pieces for an in dash upgrade. I like the controls and look of the stock unit but it is about sound quality, after all. I almost wish I was getting too old for this but then the improvement with the dyns and your install instructions is dramatic. I used to think some of the factory premium sound systems were getting pretty decent but now I am not so sure. The aftermarket is improving as well. Maybe I should have spent more time listening to the ML setup but I am not unhappy now. Are the ML speakers made by ML or are they just spec'd by him? I see that the Nak was a completely different system but according to my Lexus books, the ML is just an amp and speaker difference. I guess Volvo is the only one who uses Dynaudio, a shame really. If these other top speakers (Focal, Diamond Hex, etc.?) are as good as the dyns, this is a great time to be alive.

Still think Deflex is strange. There is a lot of silicone in that stuff that gives it that strange elasticity. Wonder how much it really helps? Not about to rip it out to do an A-B but I just can't believe how much diffferent the sound is now in my car.

whitels

RON
Glad that you're happy with your new DynAudios. Keep blazing the trail for us. Looks to me that it will be the same road that I will take. I spent some time listening to the GS430 w/ ML and of course in my previous ride's Nakamichi. I swapped the same CDs between cars really comparing the sound and noting minute details. I really liked them both but the ML has the edge on certain musical scores- like live concerts. It can really separate the vocalist from the distortive background noise of the audience applausing in the middle of a rendition.

On jazz and classicals, to me, the difference was almost imperceptible. The settings for the bass, mid, and treble controls were all set halfway, for better comparison. In fact, that same setting was good enough for me in my LS that I keep it there daily for the most part (unless variances in CD recording dictates otherwise).

My system now typically has the bass set at 3/4, midrange a bit over 1/2, and treble a bit above 1/3 - a desperate move to cut the shrill and improve the overall sound. And I'm still not happy. Hope the Dyns would help fix this.

Thanks for sharing what you accomplished.

Percy

I remember pulling up next to a GS400 that had the windows down and the STOCK stereo cranking. I just rolled up my windows to block out the sound...can't believe how Lexus would drop in a stock Pioneer system sounding like that and almost bragging how "good" it sounds compared to everything else out there. SCARRY! What was even worse was the Mark Levinson system. All the hype and advertising "we're used in home systems costing $100,000 and more" more than likely brainwashed the public into thinking they're the best out there EVER. But then again the general public has really never listened to music closely...they still think that Bose is a "good name".

When you're ready to mod out the equipment, let me know.

Percy

Kyle Harty

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