Kizoku

I am thinking of replacing the speakers in my 91 LS400.....i was looking at getting the MBQuart.........RSB214 4" components (was replaced by the PSD210) for the front and the RKC110 4" coaxial for the rears.....i'd put probably the 2002 JL 300/4 amp to them (was designed by xtant guy)....and for the HU i'd get that new panasonic CQ-DF602U.....subs are later down the road.........is this a good setup for someone that likes SQ but likes to listen at a kind of high level.......

Percy

Kizoku,

If you're after SQ then the MBQ's will sound very bright after a little while. The titanium tweeter isn't very accurate on source material, even with extreme SQ components. Though MBQ has a GLOWING review on their website, imo, they're far from the hype that the review gives them.

I've had NUMEROUS sets of MBQ. 130.03's, 160.03's, 130.02's, 218.03's (2 sets) and HX25. I dumped all of them for Dynaudio speakers. Easily the best of the best in terms of neutrality and SQ that I've every listened to. And that listening list includes Focal, Diamond HEX, a/d/s/ speakers, Boston Acoustics, Infinity Kappa, Pioneer TSA series, Infinity EMITS and various others.

MBQ may CLAIM that the harshness is caused by cables or electronics. THIS ISN"T SO. This is due to the lack of energy damping common to titanium, which causes ringing. There's a 17khz spike in the measurement graphs, and pretty much anything over 3.3khz will shoot up like a rocket. VERY bright sounding and not at all accurate for a good SQ setup. Though MBQ will advertise "fast transients" and other "postives", they still have a harshness to them.

The caliber of electronics that I'm using. Modified McIntosh MC4000m, modified MC440M, modified Mc MEN456, modified Mc MEQ452, Modded Sony C90, soon to be modded Velodyne DF12sc controller. These are by no means substandard electronics! Cables...Monster M series M1500 and M950i. Anywhere from 100 to 400 dollars per 1/2 meter pair.

IF your goal is SQ (and really good SQ) then look no further than Dynaudio speakers. You'll have to go with a custom baffle but they're more than worth the effort. If you can't afford the Dyns (they're kinda pricey!) and you have to have a system right away then you can go for either ADS speaker, Diamond HEX or perhaps something in the Focal lineup. The Dyns are worth saving up for though!

Percy

DJ SprinklesNJO

ok percy, how about some suggestions and comments for me. and it can help others. i have an rx, but anway im interested in replacing mine as well im looking for it to be louder, crisper and overall clean. but most importantly economical. what would be good for on a budget. i think the fronts should be component sets bc of the imaging. yea something with nice crossovers would look good. but anway, so just to give some exampls how are infinity reference series, polk (same price range line), jbl, oh and esp audiobahn, how are they. the blue looking component sets and even the regular line. i would love to do my whole system in audiobahn, then just some other talk, my friend has mb quarts, i like them alot, but how are they so loud and clear and have such a low db rating. also how are focal and dynoaudio? ive never seen them in person b4.

Percy

DJ,

Reason why the MBQ's have such a low power handling (in real life, not in their marketing hype "specs") is due to the soft plastic cone material. It's VERY easy to flex a MBQ cone and I've popped a few of them out of the magnet channel. Try that with a Dynaudio - I haven't yet popped one Their cones aery stiff but well damped cone structure and you'll get quite a bit more spl (though they're not meant for that) out of them than with the MBQ.

Focals are nice too but their Kevlar tweeter, imo, isn't up to snuff. A bit harsh, but Focal still makes a nice speaker...though not as nice as Dyn!

What's your spending limit for the speakers? I'd rather stay away from the economical speakers for two reasons. One...the high end speakers are worth saving money for. Two...if you're only upgrading ONCE, do it right with a high end speaker.

You definitely have to use components for the front. No way that a coaxial will fit in the little tweeter pods. Once when you go with components, you'll have to go custom on the installation. That's just how it is with the Lexus automobiles.

Heres more info on the Dynaudio speakers.

http://www.dynaudiona.com

Percy

lisnup65

If you are looking for a nice component set that will fit your budget then you owe it to yourself to take a look at the Image Dynamics components. They are a very good SQ product that will not break the bank. Good construction, descent x-over, awesome mid-bass kick, OK tweeter. The Diamond audio Hex series are definitely worth a look for a mid priced set, as well as the Focal Polyglass and Poly Kevlar lines. High-end you start looking at the Focal Utopias and the Dynaudio's. Both are excellent quality that is hard to rival by anyone. Both these systems have their good and bads like all designs. The Dynaudio tweeter is a little saturated, but makes up for its lose in shear size. The size is what sets the DA tweeter apart. Due to the larger size it can reproduce lower frequencies than the Focal, thus given a lower HP x-over point. This helps blend them better with the woofer in the component set when you are expirementing with tweeter location for optimal imaging. The Dynaudio's are a very natural sounding speaker set and by all means are great. I myself prefered the warmer Focal Utopia's over the Dynaudio. It was choice and it was a tough call, but I decided to pass on the Dyns cause when I auditioned the Focal's they just made me want to keep listening. I almost forgot why I was there listening. In my own personal vehicle I chose the Utopias for the front stage and I went with the Diamond Hex series for the rear stage. Image Dynamics ID MAXX will take care of the sub freqs. I am not a fan of MB as I always felt that they were over-rated. The tweeters are not natural sounding enough and the woofer in the component set is weak. Just unable to perfrom enough midbass just kills a system!! Now that the holders of RF stock own them I can just imagine that their quality will get worse. We watched the giant RF fall to the levels and quality of Flea market goods and I suspect the same will happen in time to the MB line. Good luck in your search for the ultimate componet set that will fit your budget and personal tastes.

Kizoku

whoa thanks percy for the wonderful info......good thing i asked before i got the MB's.......but the problem is that i only have enough room for 4 inch speakers...(91 ls)....so im kinda limited on my speaker selection........the only ones i saw were from diamond and a/d/s........and it sounds like doing an custom install would be pretty tricky since i never really have done this before........

Percy

Kizoku,

That's where you do the custom installation YOURSELF. If you're good with power tools and have some common sense on cutting out Medium Density Fiberboard, then you're more than halfway there. IME, the extra work is MORE than worth the result!

Percy

retrodrive

Diamond Hex...ummm...not any more. When old school Diamonds were manufactured by Eaton they were awesome. They made a great name for themselves. Since Eaton dumped them they had gone down in quality waaaay too much. Not worth it IMO.

Image Dynamics Chameleons. I am actually considering putting a pair of those in each door. Awesome power handling and great tonality. They sound a little too "focal" alike for me as a set.

Focal. Good midbass, good midrange but the tweet gets so annoying with time...just as bad as MBQ (anything but QSD). Opposed to Dynaudios they are in your face, aggressive speakers, which have specific flavor of sound to them. Some like it, but that is not what speakers are for. They are to reproduce sound the way it was recorded, not to add to it.

Now what I was really impressed with lately is Illusion Audio products. Their speakers, subs and horns are absolutely wonderful. I am strongly considering their horns as a primary change in my setup.

Rainbow Pro. I will always be a fan of the pro set. Nothing imaged better in my car then those. I am talking about the soundstage above eye level, no "rainbow" effect and some almost clinical imaging. I would, with ought a doubt, recommend a set to anyone.


Dynaudio. These are extremely nice sounding speakers. For pure listening I liked them a lot. Two problems I had with the set is that midrange just does not image at all. In my friend's setup he used rings around midrange just to control the dispersion. Also they sound a little bit too soft and laid back for me. Every person has his understanding of transparency of a speaker set but personally, Dyn's are a little too laid back.

Here is how I rank the sets as far as softness goes:
Dynaudio, Rainbow, Illusion, Chameleons, Focal, MB Quart.
Depending on your taste you would choose the set suited for you.

BabaBooey

If you were worried about modding due to a budget, I'd say pass on the JL amp. They're some of the best in the game feature wise, but speakers should be your first priority. If you've got an installer's touch, rent a plasma cutter and make yourself a nice 6" space, or an 8" if you want to get freaky.

Also, screw rearfill. A 4 channel amp can still be of great use, though, as they're perfect for getting some extra power for the same price as a 2 channel amp. (i.e. Phoenix Gold XS2500 puts out 125x2@4ohms and costs $300, but the XS4600 puts out 300x2 when bridged for $330. Get the picture?)

As for MBQ, I don't necessarily like their products, but don't think that you should get a picture of a bent up cone in your head every time you think of their product. If they went with a heavier cone, the speakers would have a lower Fs (yum, in the case of like speakers/installs, the one with the lower Fs will have better lowend output), but they would also lower the efficiency. I'm sure MBQ would rather have cone problems with people that send their speakers more than their rated power than having every uneducated person (seems like 95% of the car audio market) wondering why their friend's $100 Jensens are louder than their $200 Quarts with each getting the same amount of power.

If you go with 4's, look into those a/d/s's, CDT, and Canton (good luck finding them). If you decide to install a bigger speaker, get back with how much money you'll be dealing with and how much power you want.

Kizoku

well i think im gonna get creative and go for a lil' bigger of a speaker...probably looking at the 5.25 inch ones then.....those wouldnt be much trouble to fit in the doors.......my price range is from 200-300 for the front speakers.....so far i think its between the diamond hex ($300) or the image dynamics chameleon ($260).........i'd like to hav some rearfill though.....and i'd like about 75-80 watts to each speaker.........i heard the pheonix gold amps went down in quality by the way........and someone told me that the new JL amps werent as clean as the PPI ones....so i have been looking into the new PCX amps from PPI now also........

BabaBooey

Well as already mentioned, the Diamonds suck. Go ahead and buy them, but don't come back complaining about their quality if you haven't heard them yet.

Phoenix Gold down in quality? Uhhm, if you say so. And whoever said PPI's sound cleaner than JL's is talking out of his ***.

And again, if you're on a budget, you're making a mistake buying new rearfill, and an even bigger one sending them the same amount of power, unless of course you prefer your soundstage in the dead center of the vehicle. Do you drive with your seat tilted all the way back and your head tilted far to the right?

Dunno, I've grown tired of giving you my opinion... go buy your Hexes, rearfill, and whatever amp your friend says "sounds cleanest."

Kizoku

BabaBooey - idk why yer gettin an attitude with me.....im just asking your adivce as someone who is fairly new with carstereoes. my friend was the owner of two local car audio stores so i thought i could trust his knowledge. he was the one that told me to setup a rearfil w/ equal power to 4 speakers. so dont get all angry at me. i dont hav anything against u, i respect your knowledge of car audio and hope to get more advice from u

so basically i should get the dynaudios and put what 100 watts to them and put them in the front, having nothin in the back of the car for now?

thank you to everyone that has given me advice, it has helped me a great deal.

BabaBooey

I don't mean to get attitude with you, but have you heard the HEXes played at loud volumes? I can't imagine anyone enjoying the sound.

And out of curiosity, does your friend sell JL amps? Does he sell PPI amps? Does he sell Phoenix Gold amps?

Dyns with 100 watts would be WAY better than Hexes, and better than the Chamelions (good speaks though), but I'd definitely try to show them more power. Percy says that they have a large magnetic gap or something like that to keep it's efficiency, don't remember quite. The way I see it with Dyn's, they have a high Mms/long VC, and that just screams to me low efficiency/high power handling. There are ways to make up for it (looser spider, I believe), but at expense to transient response.

Percy

Kizoku,

Baba is going through some rough times right now...don't take it personally.

If you were to go with the Dyns (they're NOT cheap...about 700+ per pair, including crossover) then I would go with 100 wpc as a minimum. You can leave the stock ones as a rear fill.

There are two schools of thought on rear fill. One is that you don't need it since at a concert, all of the sound source is up front on the stage.

From the demo cars that I've been in that have had front stage only (no rear fill), well...they sounded "dry" at best. They lacked ambience and the general experience of a concert or event. Sound is bounced off of surfaces so you do hear a bit from the sides and rear of where you're situated. My advice...leave the rear fill in. Work on the front stage first, then the rear fill.

The demo cars...
BMW 325i McIntosh demo car, front stage only
Sony XESZ50 (and all the XES amps), front stage only in a Toyota Camry

After we got done with the demo, they hopped in mine with the rear fill and they agreed that the with the rear fill it sounded better. As for the amps, do the research, and if possible, audition them. IME, there IS a difference in sound quality due to design, parts, overall engineering, etc.

Percy

Percy

Bababooey,

(getting into technospeak mode...your fav if I remember right!)

The Dyns have a dual magnet structure which has a much longer gap than those with a single magnet. Even with the transients, the coil is still well within the magnetic field...something that the Quart and many other speakers can't do. Efficiency isn't too bad at around 88db 1w/1meter, but it's not an Infinity Emit either! (They're something like 93db 1w/1m). Don't know too much about the ID HLCD but since they're horn drivers, they're probably very efficient. The only reason why the Dyns can take so much power (some have run 300 wpc rms with no prob...and they're good for a 1000 wpc rms transient for 10ms) is due to their 3 inch voice coil. Aluminum former with aluminum wire. The result in an overall surface area that is much greater than a typical 1 to 1.5 inch coil of the same driver diameter.

Why not copper coils? They're heavier and this would negate any positives of the lightweight (though QUITE strong) cone. Put it this way...a 38mm copper coil of the same height (let's say 1cm) will weigh as much or more than Dyns 75mm aluminum coil! The more surface area, the more control the coil has over the cone.

It's like taking a steel wheel with 15 inch tires and trying to get them to spin around the track. Lots of tire squirm (all things equal). Then going to a forged 17 or 18 inch aluminum alloy wheel that has lighter overall weight and more control.

Suspension on the Dyns isn't too loose or too tight. Fairly compliant. They really overengineerd these speakers...even their support structure is designed to be aerodynamic with the backwave of the cone.

Neat stuff!

Percy