Nakimichi vs Mark Levinson?
05-05-02, 08:34 PM
#16
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toog4me - Hope that wasn't aimed at me. 600 was about the dyns for the front doors. Not sure what you can get comparable fro 600 if you can get it. When I got my GS you couldn't get just ML. You either got premium and 16s or ML/NAV/17"chromes etc. The difference to get ML on something on the lot was closer to 5k. No one was exactly excited about ordering so that was not really an option.
05-06-02, 06:33 PM
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Really, I figured that. I know I am going to spend a lot more than the ML setup. I tried to get it but didn't feel like ordering a car. Like I said, in my case it wasn't 600 (or whatever ML costs, seems it was a bit more than that). With the bundling it was either a Premium or ML loaded and it meant about 5K difference. If I could have found a GS4 with just ML, and the color wasn't too far off, I would have gone for it. Still think the Premium setup can be considerably improved. Gosh the dyns are expensive but they sure sound good. When I saw that the ML was speakers and amp, I felt better about being able to improve things a lot while still keeping the stock HU. I was fascinated that the Nak was an entirely different system but as I haven't heard the Nak, I will have to take the opinion of those who posted that the ML was superior. Just don't like these factory upgraded units with funky two and one ohm speakers that then put out questionable power numbers. Still don't want a noticeable system, last item will be that outboard amp to live in the trunk. Really don't want to give up much of the trunk at all. Decisions, decisions....
05-06-02, 08:33 PM
#19
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Originally posted by bitkahuna
So you're saying you can get an aftermarket system installed for less than the ML option costs that's better? Is that installing it yourself or paying someone to do it?
If it's installing it yourself I could believe it more easily.
So you're saying you can get an aftermarket system installed for less than the ML option costs that's better? Is that installing it yourself or paying someone to do it?
If it's installing it yourself I could believe it more easily.
07-20-02, 09:00 AM
#21
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Originally posted by Toog4me
The ML system is a lot better, but thats because its newer and designed by Mark Levinson who makes home theatres.
The ML system is a lot better, but thats because its newer and designed by Mark Levinson who makes home theatres.
Mark Levinson does not make "Home Theaters" they make Hi-End audio components. Considering that the cost of the entire Lexus ML system is lower than any single Mark Levinson component, you are not getting Mark Levinson quality parts in any these systems, but you are getting the engineering talent of Harmon International and I suppose a rough implementation of ML philosophy in a car system.
07-20-02, 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by Toog4me
a better aftrmarket system for 600??? That sounds really cheap.
a better aftrmarket system for 600??? That sounds really cheap.
i hope that $600 is just for the HU, cause i still have the stock pioneer HU and AMP, yet my aftermarket speakers alone costed in excess of $1k.
07-23-02, 11:50 AM
#23
This battle could go on for ever, but consider this point:
If you want the Navigation system (I think it is a must-buy) then you can't do a damn aftermarket system. I would love to do an aftermarket system. . .I always have in every car I've owned. . .but you can't do it if you have the NAV. So what is your best choice? Get the ML. I know it is not using their entry-level $6000 CD player or beginner $8000 amp, but its the best I can get in the car with the NAV.
I'm kind of sorry ML put their name on a car system. . .it dilutes this high-end brand. But at the same time, it says something for the Lexus brand. Coach chose Lexus, and now Mark Levinson has chosen Lexus. Maybe Prada will start making the headliner? I wouldn't mind a Rolex or Breitling as the dash clock, either.
If you want the Navigation system (I think it is a must-buy) then you can't do a damn aftermarket system. I would love to do an aftermarket system. . .I always have in every car I've owned. . .but you can't do it if you have the NAV. So what is your best choice? Get the ML. I know it is not using their entry-level $6000 CD player or beginner $8000 amp, but its the best I can get in the car with the NAV.
I'm kind of sorry ML put their name on a car system. . .it dilutes this high-end brand. But at the same time, it says something for the Lexus brand. Coach chose Lexus, and now Mark Levinson has chosen Lexus. Maybe Prada will start making the headliner? I wouldn't mind a Rolex or Breitling as the dash clock, either.
07-23-02, 09:10 PM
#24
Moderator - Electronics Forum
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RocketSlug
[B]This battle could go on for ever, but consider this point:
If you want the Navigation system (I think it is a must-buy) then you can't do a damn aftermarket system. I would love to do an aftermarket system. . .I always have in every car I've owned. . .but you can't do it if you have the NAV.
***Sure you can. Just use line out converters, select the amp and speakers of your choice and if you want to get really fancy, a good eq to tune it all out. Best of both worlds. Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?
***
I'm kind of sorry ML put their name on a car system. . .it dilutes this high-end brand.
***They still won't compare to "purists" like Audio Note. My opinion, of course. But then you don't hear about Audio Note too much as they're a very small company. Or you could try going with "47 Labs". Excellent stuff. But these companies don't have the advertising clout of Mark Levinson, Infinity, Bose, JBL (I know I'm missing one) with the Harmon International conglamorate. The big guys dump ALOT of money into advertising...the smaller companies just can't do that as they run a leaner operation.***
Percy
[B]This battle could go on for ever, but consider this point:
If you want the Navigation system (I think it is a must-buy) then you can't do a damn aftermarket system. I would love to do an aftermarket system. . .I always have in every car I've owned. . .but you can't do it if you have the NAV.
***Sure you can. Just use line out converters, select the amp and speakers of your choice and if you want to get really fancy, a good eq to tune it all out. Best of both worlds. Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?
***I'm kind of sorry ML put their name on a car system. . .it dilutes this high-end brand.
***They still won't compare to "purists" like Audio Note. My opinion, of course. But then you don't hear about Audio Note too much as they're a very small company. Or you could try going with "47 Labs". Excellent stuff. But these companies don't have the advertising clout of Mark Levinson, Infinity, Bose, JBL (I know I'm missing one) with the Harmon International conglamorate. The big guys dump ALOT of money into advertising...the smaller companies just can't do that as they run a leaner operation.***
Percy
07-24-02, 02:52 AM
#25
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Harmon-Kardon? Is that the one you missed?
RocketSlug - Rolex or Breitling clock? No no no my friend, a Vacheron et Constantine or Patek...Rolex and Breitling are like Pioneer and Kenwood...
RocketSlug - Rolex or Breitling clock? No no no my friend, a Vacheron et Constantine or Patek...Rolex and Breitling are like Pioneer and Kenwood...
07-24-02, 08:09 AM
#27
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My personal opinion is Nakamichi is definitely much better!
My Lexus doesn't have either, but I actually compared 2 Lexus cars with same CD songs. Both cars parked side by side, so I can compare instantly.
Nakamichi is Much Better. ML wins the name and "Home Audio" reputation.
-Hendry
My Lexus doesn't have either, but I actually compared 2 Lexus cars with same CD songs. Both cars parked side by side, so I can compare instantly.
Nakamichi is Much Better. ML wins the name and "Home Audio" reputation.
-Hendry
07-24-02, 09:54 AM
#28
Well, there are some fancy lads on here like me. I mentioned high end brands, not the highest. And I own a Breitling and a Rolex. . .no-cheese-eating-surrender-monkey French sounding names will curse my wrist!
But back on the topic, with NAV, it is a moot point. I'm open to suggestions on how to improve the ML, though.
But back on the topic, with NAV, it is a moot point. I'm open to suggestions on how to improve the ML, though.
07-24-02, 11:49 AM
#29
NO Way, Jose
hleo1: NO way is the Nakamichi system better than the ML (relative to the GS). I had the Nakamichi system in my car for the last 2 years. Great headunit - so I kept it - but the rest of the system is mediocre at best. The Nak speakers just plain suck, but they're better than the Pioneer stock versions. (Geez, did I make that clear enough???) The amp is not meant to be run at its upper end (it's for the 60+ crowd, LOL). The ML system has a much better amp, and is tuned better, etc., but the speakers still leave a lot to be desired. From what I heard of the ML system - at mid volume - it blew away my GS Nak system.
What was it that you thought sounded better with the Nak - and was it in a different car, maybe? Which Lexus model?
What was it that you thought sounded better with the Nak - and was it in a different car, maybe? Which Lexus model?
07-24-02, 12:49 PM
#30
Moderator - Electronics Forum
I'll have to second what engin_ear said.
The ML system is, in fact, made by ML themselves. Yes, they have major backing from a huge company, that of Harman International, but it is indeed a ML. Although it doesn't use the high end home power supplies, regulation or the extreme high end topology. Not enough space in the parameters they have to work with. Sxr71 mentioned "Mark Levinson quality parts". I think what he meant was the usually overkill engineering (with the stratospheric price) as the parts are, in most cases, the same as anyone elses. To get a bit technical, the most they're using in their high end design is the Burr Brown 604 op amp, a relatively cheap part. No high end Vishay or bulk foil resistors or any Goertz Alpha Core in their design. No Black Gate or Sanyo OsCon stuff either....unless they've changed recently.
Speakers have the ML label, but I do suspect that they are outsourced, much like most other companies, though Dynaudio and Velodyne are some of the exceptions. ML audio speakers used in the Lexus may be a "purchase and custom tune to our needs" while slapping the ML label on them. This may include changing the suspension, surround or even the magnetic strength/gap to suit their needs.
Now here's where the subjectivity comes in. Pioneer premium versus Nak versus ML. Worst one of the bunch is a stock Pioneer/Premium system. In runner up position would be the Nak. I've listened to both and the Nak only has a slight advantage on the midbass, where it sounds fuller. Treble is still lacking due to the rounding off at 10khz, and that's by system design. Yes, theres a low pass filter that's going on somewhere in the audio analog output circuitry.
The Mark Levinson is the best of the three, IMO. They basically tuned the system for an overall audio spectral balance, though it takes some getting used to. A nice part of the system is their amp. The Nak and Pioneer/Premium both use an integrated power amp, a little bit less classy than your average Alpine or aftermarket Pioneer with a built in amp. I've taken apart the Pioneer/Premium amp and there's a whopping total of 3 power semiconductors. One for the front set, one for the rears and one for the subwoofer. That's it. Nakamichi is also implemented in a similar way. Integrated circuits, especially ones dealing with audio power, produce more distortion and less "guts" than one built out of discrete componets (ie...seperate transistors, mosfets, regulated power supply with discretes, etc.) If you notice, the amps for the Pioneer and Nak have fairly high distortion (greater than 1 percent, though it's not really specified.) Also notice that they're not giving a 20-20khz distortion figure, since that number may be upwards of 10 percent when all is said and done.
The ML amp IS composed of discretes and this helps to lower distortion throughout the audio band. ML lists the distortion at 0.01 percent from 20-20khz, which is quite respectable. Whether they can prove it on the real life bench is another question as I believe, only McIntosh can do their figures in real life. The ML electronics are quite good, and considering that they're for the automotive enviroment, and in a "stock" vehicle, it becomes even better.
Out of the three options, ML is the hands down winner. Just retune it to where it sounds good (on all systems) to give them a level playing field.
Now if you opted NOT to get the ML system and wanted to save the 6k on an aftermarket system...let's say that the ML system would PALE in comparison. But for those that opted to get the ML, there is still hope. The head unit is fairly clean and the amp is also good. If you wanted to bypass and tap into the head unit itself (there *might* be line level outs...but you have to tap into them) and upgrade the amps and speakers, then all the more power to you.
Percy
The ML system is, in fact, made by ML themselves. Yes, they have major backing from a huge company, that of Harman International, but it is indeed a ML. Although it doesn't use the high end home power supplies, regulation or the extreme high end topology. Not enough space in the parameters they have to work with. Sxr71 mentioned "Mark Levinson quality parts". I think what he meant was the usually overkill engineering (with the stratospheric price) as the parts are, in most cases, the same as anyone elses. To get a bit technical, the most they're using in their high end design is the Burr Brown 604 op amp, a relatively cheap part. No high end Vishay or bulk foil resistors or any Goertz Alpha Core in their design. No Black Gate or Sanyo OsCon stuff either....unless they've changed recently.
Speakers have the ML label, but I do suspect that they are outsourced, much like most other companies, though Dynaudio and Velodyne are some of the exceptions. ML audio speakers used in the Lexus may be a "purchase and custom tune to our needs" while slapping the ML label on them. This may include changing the suspension, surround or even the magnetic strength/gap to suit their needs.
Now here's where the subjectivity comes in. Pioneer premium versus Nak versus ML. Worst one of the bunch is a stock Pioneer/Premium system. In runner up position would be the Nak. I've listened to both and the Nak only has a slight advantage on the midbass, where it sounds fuller. Treble is still lacking due to the rounding off at 10khz, and that's by system design. Yes, theres a low pass filter that's going on somewhere in the audio analog output circuitry.
The Mark Levinson is the best of the three, IMO. They basically tuned the system for an overall audio spectral balance, though it takes some getting used to. A nice part of the system is their amp. The Nak and Pioneer/Premium both use an integrated power amp, a little bit less classy than your average Alpine or aftermarket Pioneer with a built in amp. I've taken apart the Pioneer/Premium amp and there's a whopping total of 3 power semiconductors. One for the front set, one for the rears and one for the subwoofer. That's it. Nakamichi is also implemented in a similar way. Integrated circuits, especially ones dealing with audio power, produce more distortion and less "guts" than one built out of discrete componets (ie...seperate transistors, mosfets, regulated power supply with discretes, etc.) If you notice, the amps for the Pioneer and Nak have fairly high distortion (greater than 1 percent, though it's not really specified.) Also notice that they're not giving a 20-20khz distortion figure, since that number may be upwards of 10 percent when all is said and done.
The ML amp IS composed of discretes and this helps to lower distortion throughout the audio band. ML lists the distortion at 0.01 percent from 20-20khz, which is quite respectable. Whether they can prove it on the real life bench is another question as I believe, only McIntosh can do their figures in real life. The ML electronics are quite good, and considering that they're for the automotive enviroment, and in a "stock" vehicle, it becomes even better.
Out of the three options, ML is the hands down winner. Just retune it to where it sounds good (on all systems) to give them a level playing field.
Now if you opted NOT to get the ML system and wanted to save the 6k on an aftermarket system...let's say that the ML system would PALE in comparison. But for those that opted to get the ML, there is still hope. The head unit is fairly clean and the amp is also good. If you wanted to bypass and tap into the head unit itself (there *might* be line level outs...but you have to tap into them) and upgrade the amps and speakers, then all the more power to you.
Percy