fenderzig

iTrader: (2)

Hey guys,

I'm considering an audio install and I need some advice and input on the following system that has been recommended to me by my local shop. The only components I've ever worked with are Diamond Audio and this local shop doesn't carry Diamond so I'm starting fresh. What do you think about the following set up?

What I'm going for is a clean, punchy sound that is suited well for rock music and not necessarily R&B or rap. I'm trying to build a system that will be both nice to look at and nice to listen to.

The system I'm considering is:

1. Head Unit: Alpine INA-W900 which is a complete DVD/Nav unit

2. Front Speakers: Boston Acoustics Pro60SE--components

3. Rear Speakers: Boston Acoustics SC65--coaxial speakers

4. Sub: Boston Acoustics G212-44--I'm only thinking 1 of these in a closed box to keep a "punchy" response to it

5. Amp: Alpine PDX-5-- 5 channel amp to power the whole system

ryan78

iTrader: (2)

i have the boston pro's, and love them. go with the pro's for the rear as well, as they can be set up either coaxially or component. also, would suggest the g5 12 dvc. i have 2 and they do quite well.

fenderzig

iTrader: (2)

Thanks ryan!!

Any other input or suggestions??

lev00221

iTrader: (28)

fenderzig,
I have been a devoted Boston Acoustics fan since the mid 1980's. I have had nearly every line of Boston car and home speaker at one time or another. They are truly outstanding and a great value for the money. I particularly love the first generation Pro Series with the 1-inch copolymer dome tweeter. I think that the speaker choices that you have made are good but I agree with ryan that you should use Pro series in the rear as well. You should also consider an extra set of tweeters on the dashboard (imaging tweeters). These are very helpful in bringing up the stereo image.

Are you going to be installing any of the system yourself? I agree that choosing quality components and speakers is very important. However, the most critical ingredient for obtaining great sound quality is speaker placement and angling (in relation to the driver's head). Even mediocre speakers can sound great if installed properly. This includes subwoofers. The next most important factor is ample amplifier power. Use at least 100 watts per channel to the front speakers and 300 watts minimum per subwoofer. You will definitely notice a difference in clarity and dynamics. Third, absolutely do not skimp on your wiring. Use at least 4 guage power wire from the your battery to your trunk. 2 gauge or 0 gauge is even better. Don't choke your amplifiers by using cheap and thin wiring.

PM me or email me at levelezmd@yahoo.com if you want any more input. I love to talk stereo stuff.

Good luck!

Sincerely,
Luis

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

While I certainly agree that skimping on wiring is never a good idea, overkill isn't either. The amp he's spec'd out is probably not going to meet the goal, and I too would recommend something bigger, but suggesting someone step up to 0 ga wire for what will be, in essence, 700 watts (4 x 100 for front/rear, 300 for sub) is an exorbitant cost that is simply unnecessary - provided you buy quality wiring to start with. Figuring an 80% efficiency, which is completely feasible in today's realm, you're at roughly 900 watts input power. That's only about 70 amps, which is well within the confines of what good 4 ga wiring will carry since it is rated to do 100 amps. It's also going to be 1/4 the cost of 0 ga wiring, and not nearly as hard to install in a vehicle. Keep in mind, also, that the connections made to the wires should be of the same quality. You don't want to skimp out and buy a $3 terminal at the parts store after spending $200 on wiring. Buy the good stuff, it pays off in the end.

All that being said, I think 100 watts going to rears is also a bit much. Considering the best soundstage should image from the front, having a matching component set in the rear will not only detract from this, but having it equally powered to the front will adversely affect the sound. If anything, having only a midbass in the back playing up from the sub to where midrange of the front kicks in would be how I would go in many setups. It's not as easy as just setting up another component set, but it's not supposed to be easy to achieve great sound. I wholeheartedly agree with you that even crappy speakers can sound good if the placement is done right. I've listened to hundreds of cars, and I've been amazed by what can be done with enough time and experimentation on placement. If you're shelling out for quality components, the job gets a lot easier, but it's still no cakewalk.

Big Mack

fenderzig

iTrader: (2)

Luis,

Thanks for all the great advice! More than likely, I will NOT be doing the installation myself but will have an influence in it. I'm not very adept with electronics so I'm partnering with a shop here in town that will let me oversee the install (of course without getting in the way )

The additional tweeters in the dash is an interesting suggestion. Where would you suggest I put them?

Also, I'm going back and forth between 1 sub running off the 5-channel of the Alpine amp and maybe going with 2 subs running them off a separate amp. I mainly listen to rock and I play the guitar so I love a clear, articulate, full, punchy sound without teeth-rattling bass. 1 or 2 subs???

fenderzig

iTrader: (2)

Mack,

Thanks for your advice and input. Would you suggest, then, that I do the components up front and just to coaxial in the back like my original post and then maybe run a separate amp to the speakers and a second amp to the sub?

I've only ever done one other audio build and it was in a coupe so the cabin size was much smaller. I love good music but I don't really understand the science behind it. I can play it but I let someone else mix it .

1 4-channel amp and 1 mono channel amp OR a five channel amp?

1 sub or 2 subs...

Thanks Mack

lev00221

iTrader: (28)

fenderzig,
Check out the bostonacoustics.com website and look at the IS tweeter systems. The type M with the alloy tweeter can be installed in parallel with the pro series component speakers. There is a PDF manual online shows the placement options. I prefer the dash mounting option in the far corners firing up. You can set the crossover at the "SQ" setting which is a high-pass 8000 hz setting. You then adjust their output to where you can't localize them but they raise the soundstage. Usually on the -6 db setting but your ears will be the judge.

If you can afford the expense, have your shop make you some custom kick panel enclosures for your midrange and tweeters. They should be aimed at the opposite headrest roughly. That is, the passenger side enclosure should fire at the drivers head (should be directly in your line of sight if you are sitting in the drivers seat) and vice versa for the driver side enclosure. If your front speakers are aimed properly and you add the dash mounted tweeters it will sound as if the artist is singing from the middle of the hood of your car. It really is very impressive.

I agree with Big Mack that you don't need a lot of power for the rear deck speakers. You can get by with as little as 20-30 watts of clean power. The rear package tray and windshield act like a horn that amplifies the rear speakers' output. When setting you rear speakers use the fader all the way to the front initially. Then raise the level of the rear speakers until you can barely notice them. At that point fade forward again just a slight bit and your set. The rear speakers should not call attention to themselves but should give the sound a more expansive feel. Also, your rear seat passengers will thank you.

If you can fit two enclosures in your trunk then I would definitely go with two subwoofers. Two ten-inch subwoofers sound great and usually only require about 0.5 cubic feet each. It will also be easier to achieve a satisfying sound-pressure level when you are moving a greater volume of air. Two subs will accomplish this much more easily than one without relying on large excursions. Be very generous with the amount of power you give the subwoofers. Your ears and the seat of your pants will be well rewarded. It is better to have to turn the subs down then to wish you had a little more punch after everything is installed.

I would also use separate amplifiers for front, rear and subs. It is much easier to make a stealth installation for three smaller amplifiers than one large one. You can take better advantage of the nooks and crannies of the oddly shaped trunk interior. Of course, this is only if budget permits.

Don't feel that you have to purchase everything new. There is some great equipment to be had on eBay if you know what you are looking for. I purchase all of my equipment used.

I apologize for being long winded. I hope that this was helpful.
Let me know if you have more questions.
Luis

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

You're welcome, mang. Glad to help where I can.

If you are partnering with a shop as you said, I would try it with just fronts to start off with. Perhaps they can let you hear it with the amp you would use if you only had fronts, with a separate one for the sub(s). This would give you a good indication of whether you need rear speakers at all. Some of the best sounding cars I've heard have had absolutely no rear speakers since the fronts filled the car with sound that was appropriate for the level. I have experimented with it quite a bit, and prefer no rear speakers, but this is purely my opinion. You may very well feel differently, and that's okay.

Coupes do provide their own challenges. The environment is a bit smaller, but seating is usually a bit farther back, too, making it even more difficult to get things to sound right. Since you're in a sedan, though, that's for a different discussion.

I concur with Lev - 2 subs is always my preference. As for the amps, like I said - try to hear it with just one set up front, and if you feel you need more, buy a 4 channel or dual 2 channel amps and use those. Either way, a dedicated sub amp is almost a necessity for most people. The power supply in a 5 channel amp can be done well, but if you are running two subs and the rest of the speakers, there is only so much current that an amp that small can safely (and effectively) handle.

I've toyed with these systems a few times, and you can get some amazing results if you take the time to set the levels properly and do the work. Definitely something to behold, provided you can hear the subtle differences.

I concur. I've had kicks in every car, and usually build mine using laser leveling. Crazy how speakers can sound completely different when moving from the doors to the floors!

This is a pretty good way of setting up rears if you feel they are necessary. The science of setting up a system is not very complex, it just takes time, patience, and the ability to listen objectively. Clearly you've got that, Fender.

I'll save space/time, too. I concur with the rest - especially the long winded part for myself, as well.

Big Mack

fenderzig

iTrader: (2)

Big Mack and Luis,

You guys are awesome!! Thank you so much for your help and the long-winded responses are welcome anytime! Seriously, I love music and reading a bit of the science and the expertise side behind it that you two bring makes me appreciate it all the more. I have quite a few questions now for my local shop and with your advice I'm going tweak my original plan to include 2 subs (probably 10's), AT LEAST two amps and maybe even three amps, the custom kick panels (which I didn't even know were possible but they make total sense) and heavier gauge wire and connectors for the whole build.

Luis, you wrote, "I agree with Big Mack that you don't need a lot of power for the rear deck speakers. You can get by with as little as 20-30 watts of clean power." My car doesn't have "rear deck" speakers. The rear doors have a second set of 6 1/2s but no tweeters and the only thing in the rear deck is the OEM sub. My car is a 2000 Platinum Edition with the Nakamichi audio system.

Big Mack, I have to admit that deleting the rear speakers makes me a little skeptical because I've just always assumed "more speakers=better sound" but I don't have ANY experience to back that up. Your suggestions have opened up some enormous tweaking possibilities....THANKS!!

Guys, I might be hitting you up in the next few months with some questions on the enclosures, sub box size, etc. I hope you don't mind...

Have a great 4th guys and be safe!!

Big Mack

iTrader: (1)

Glad to help, mang. I love building and playing with audio systems, both big (think concert sized) and small (cars). It's a lot to learn, but I had people teach me so I try to share it.

Nice to hear it's inspired some ideas. I know it's a common thought, but if you sit and listen to music in your living room, do you put speakers behind you? Try it if you can, and see how it affects the sound. I used to have a listening room that could show the differences and how placement might detract from the experience. It's amazing how much people can tune out by habit, but once they hear it differently they don't want it any other way.

Keep 'em coming. We'll be around.

Big Mack