Monster Sigma Retro cable
09-09-02, 07:19 AM
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Monster Sigma Retro cable
"Sigma Retro isn't for everyone. It is not for listeners who want their sound "colored" or enhanced. Sigma Retro Speaker and interconnect cables were built to recreate the sound as it was heard in its original environment. A superior audio system needs superior cables to reproduce every lush nuance of music as it was initially made. "
New high end cable from Monster. Msrp at $4,500 this speaker cable is something for me to dream about. :eek:
Are there any lucky person currently with a set of these?
New high end cable from Monster. Msrp at $4,500 this speaker cable is something for me to dream about. :eek:
Are there any lucky person currently with a set of these?
09-09-02, 01:16 PM
#2
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Ahem.... 
I'm using something VERY similar, the Monster M1500's, though they are interconnects, not speaker cable. Sigma Retro also comes in interconnect form with smaller windings. They're (M1500) something like 300 bucks per 1/2 meter pair. There are several reviews at http://www.audioreview.com and all of them are extremely positive.
Monster doesn't list the M1500's since they're SO CLOSE to the Sigma Retro, at least in their interconnects anyways.
But, the most overkill speaker cable out there would be the Transparent Ref XL. Priced at around 7500. Ouch!
Percy
I'm using something VERY similar, the Monster M1500's, though they are interconnects, not speaker cable. Sigma Retro also comes in interconnect form with smaller windings. They're (M1500) something like 300 bucks per 1/2 meter pair. There are several reviews at http://www.audioreview.com and all of them are extremely positive.
Monster doesn't list the M1500's since they're SO CLOSE to the Sigma Retro, at least in their interconnects anyways.
But, the most overkill speaker cable out there would be the Transparent Ref XL. Priced at around 7500. Ouch!
Percy
09-09-02, 10:48 PM
#3
Originally posted by Percy
Ahem....
I'm using something VERY similar, the Monster M1500's, though they are interconnects, not speaker cable. Sigma Retro also comes in interconnect form with smaller windings. They're (M1500) something like 300 bucks per 1/2 meter pair. There are several reviews at http://www.audioreview.com and all of them are extremely positive.
Monster doesn't list the M1500's since they're SO CLOSE to the Sigma Retro, at least in their interconnects anyways.
But, the most overkill speaker cable out there would be the Transparent Ref XL. Priced at around 7500. Ouch!
Percy
Ahem....
I'm using something VERY similar, the Monster M1500's, though they are interconnects, not speaker cable. Sigma Retro also comes in interconnect form with smaller windings. They're (M1500) something like 300 bucks per 1/2 meter pair. There are several reviews at http://www.audioreview.com and all of them are extremely positive.
Monster doesn't list the M1500's since they're SO CLOSE to the Sigma Retro, at least in their interconnects anyways.
But, the most overkill speaker cable out there would be the Transparent Ref XL. Priced at around 7500. Ouch!
Percy
The most expensive cable I think is this one:
http://www.mitcables.com/products/audio/oraclev1.asp
CRaziness!!!!
- Tony
09-09-02, 11:55 PM
#5
Moderator - Electronics Forum
I've only listened to one set of MIT's and they were the 350's. Absolute crap. Conrad Johnson amp, Adcom CD source, ML SL3 speakers. Very very muddy. Immediate swapout to the M1500's and the SL3's were MUCH clearer. Yes, you can do the DBT (double Blind Test) and they'd pick it out, everytime. It was that obvious. I did this with a BUNCH of MIT HARDCORE fans. The store later revamped their high end room to nothing but Monster Cable M series. The store....Tweeter. Located in Illinois.
The higher end MIT's might be a bit better though...haven't listened to them.
pcmw,
I am an EE! Still, with all the stuff that's going on in the cable, I'm surprised it makes as much difference as it does. In theory (there's that word again), it shouldn't make a difference. A wire is a wire, right? But if you were to go to a high end shop, pull a Monster M1000 interconnect and then compare it with the Monster Interlink 400 (lower end product) on a good system, you'll be able to pick it out. Or better yet, the MIT350 vs a different cable. The formentioned test of the MIT350 vs the M1500 was so obvious that it wasn't even funny.
Still, there's a lot of "voodoo" in the cable field. Be careful!
Percy
The higher end MIT's might be a bit better though...haven't listened to them.
pcmw,
I am an EE! Still, with all the stuff that's going on in the cable, I'm surprised it makes as much difference as it does. In theory (there's that word again), it shouldn't make a difference. A wire is a wire, right? But if you were to go to a high end shop, pull a Monster M1000 interconnect and then compare it with the Monster Interlink 400 (lower end product) on a good system, you'll be able to pick it out. Or better yet, the MIT350 vs a different cable. The formentioned test of the MIT350 vs the M1500 was so obvious that it wasn't even funny.
Still, there's a lot of "voodoo" in the cable field. Be careful!
Percy
09-10-02, 12:06 AM
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Percy,
I hear ya Percy. I believe you that there 'IS' a difference. However, once you get to $1500+ then you should have spent the money on better equipment to start with.
The percentage of increase in overall sound quality is not as dramatic as a better system etc... Money is often spent on other things before you BLOW a ton on $200+ cables.
MW
I hear ya Percy. I believe you that there 'IS' a difference. However, once you get to $1500+ then you should have spent the money on better equipment to start with.
The percentage of increase in overall sound quality is not as dramatic as a better system etc... Money is often spent on other things before you BLOW a ton on $200+ cables.
MW
09-10-02, 12:28 AM
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Haven’t you wondered why Monster cable and the likes are always treated with pressure selling techniques? It’s pure greed and money. Basic copper based cables sell for about 4 times the cost of manufacture. This is a normal factor for retail products where shipping, packaging, marketing, duties, and several layers of distribution and storage have to be paid for.
Monster cable and the like sell for 8 to 50 times the cost to make – Yes they are made to a higher quality but they may only cost twice as much to make. Where does the rest of the money go? To a bank account marked SUCKER.
But seriously it goes to incentives to make all the sales guys try and sell you Monster cable even more than extended warranties, fabric protection, under-sealing in CA and pinstripes. They succeed and you are the sucker. You pay for all the nice marketing and the Hawaiian trips.
When you start talking about copper cable like vintage wines, its time to get out the magic crystals or get that trusted green felt tip pen that makes CD’s sounds so much better when put round the rim. I guess every one is entitled to their pleasures. It all in the mind anyway.
I have actually bought Monster cable, but not the lunatic fringe variety. Please consider that there is some technical merit in a very thin cable coloring the sound in a subjectively desirable way as a thick one. Loudspeaker damping is as much an art as a science and some may actually sound better with less damping.
Monster cable and the like sell for 8 to 50 times the cost to make – Yes they are made to a higher quality but they may only cost twice as much to make. Where does the rest of the money go? To a bank account marked SUCKER.
But seriously it goes to incentives to make all the sales guys try and sell you Monster cable even more than extended warranties, fabric protection, under-sealing in CA and pinstripes. They succeed and you are the sucker. You pay for all the nice marketing and the Hawaiian trips.
When you start talking about copper cable like vintage wines, its time to get out the magic crystals or get that trusted green felt tip pen that makes CD’s sounds so much better when put round the rim. I guess every one is entitled to their pleasures. It all in the mind anyway.
I have actually bought Monster cable, but not the lunatic fringe variety. Please consider that there is some technical merit in a very thin cable coloring the sound in a subjectively desirable way as a thick one. Loudspeaker damping is as much an art as a science and some may actually sound better with less damping.
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09-10-02, 01:44 AM
#8
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Originally posted by girvan
Haven’t you wondered why Monster cable and the likes are always treated with pressure selling techniques? It’s pure greed and money. Basic copper based cables sell for about 4 times the cost of manufacture. This is a normal factor for retail products where shipping, packaging, marketing, duties, and several layers of distribution and storage have to be paid for.
***Electronics is usually a 10x markup from cost, and that's after raw materials and R&D. One of the old time IBM guys (35+ years) told me that it's the same with computer products, especially proprietary ones. But general electronics...10x.***
Monster cable and the like sell for 8 to 50 times the cost to make – Yes they are made to a higher quality but they may only cost twice as much to make. Where does the rest of the money go? To a bank account marked SUCKER.
***It's called MARKETING. And if it gets to the lawyers it's called POLITICS. ***
But seriously it goes to incentives to make all the sales guys try and sell you Monster cable even more than extended warranties, fabric protection, under-sealing in CA and pinstripes. They succeed and you are the sucker. You pay for all the nice marketing and the Hawaiian trips.
***Actually it was vice versa for the guys over at Tweeter. They were pushing MIT left and right...Monster basically sold itself because of the name.***
When you start talking about copper cable like vintage wines, its time to get out the magic crystals or get that trusted green felt tip pen that makes CD’s sounds so much better when put round the rim. I guess every one is entitled to their pleasures. It all in the mind anyway.
***Once it gets that insane...
****
I have actually bought Monster cable, but not the lunatic fringe variety. Please consider that there is some technical merit in a very thin cable coloring the sound in a subjectively desirable way as a thick one. Loudspeaker damping is as much an art as a science and some may actually sound better with less damping.
Haven’t you wondered why Monster cable and the likes are always treated with pressure selling techniques? It’s pure greed and money. Basic copper based cables sell for about 4 times the cost of manufacture. This is a normal factor for retail products where shipping, packaging, marketing, duties, and several layers of distribution and storage have to be paid for.
***Electronics is usually a 10x markup from cost, and that's after raw materials and R&D. One of the old time IBM guys (35+ years) told me that it's the same with computer products, especially proprietary ones. But general electronics...10x.***
Monster cable and the like sell for 8 to 50 times the cost to make – Yes they are made to a higher quality but they may only cost twice as much to make. Where does the rest of the money go? To a bank account marked SUCKER.
***It's called MARKETING. And if it gets to the lawyers it's called POLITICS.
***But seriously it goes to incentives to make all the sales guys try and sell you Monster cable even more than extended warranties, fabric protection, under-sealing in CA and pinstripes. They succeed and you are the sucker. You pay for all the nice marketing and the Hawaiian trips.
***Actually it was vice versa for the guys over at Tweeter. They were pushing MIT left and right...Monster basically sold itself because of the name.***
When you start talking about copper cable like vintage wines, its time to get out the magic crystals or get that trusted green felt tip pen that makes CD’s sounds so much better when put round the rim. I guess every one is entitled to their pleasures. It all in the mind anyway.
***Once it gets that insane...
****I have actually bought Monster cable, but not the lunatic fringe variety. Please consider that there is some technical merit in a very thin cable coloring the sound in a subjectively desirable way as a thick one. Loudspeaker damping is as much an art as a science and some may actually sound better with less damping.
Percy
09-10-02, 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by Percy
Ahem....
I'm using something VERY similar, the Monster M1500's, though they are interconnects, not speaker cable. Sigma Retro also comes in interconnect form with smaller windings. They're (M1500) something like 300 bucks per 1/2 meter pair. There are several reviews at http://www.audioreview.com and all of them are extremely positive.
Monster doesn't list the M1500's since they're SO CLOSE to the Sigma Retro, at least in their interconnects anyways.
But, the most overkill speaker cable out there would be the Transparent Ref XL. Priced at around 7500. Ouch!
Percy
Ahem....
I'm using something VERY similar, the Monster M1500's, though they are interconnects, not speaker cable. Sigma Retro also comes in interconnect form with smaller windings. They're (M1500) something like 300 bucks per 1/2 meter pair. There are several reviews at http://www.audioreview.com and all of them are extremely positive.
Monster doesn't list the M1500's since they're SO CLOSE to the Sigma Retro, at least in their interconnects anyways.
But, the most overkill speaker cable out there would be the Transparent Ref XL. Priced at around 7500. Ouch!
Percy
This difference will be even bigger once the new speakers are in place. Just need to go back to the shop with my cd's to audition some more.
09-10-02, 12:04 PM
#10
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Kaban,
I had two of Monster's high end home cable. I'm using the M2.4 bi wire right now and I used to run the M1.5, which used to be the M series top of the line back in '95. HUGE difference. Yes, you can a/b/a all day long and DBT all you want and you'd still be able to pick them out.
Getting out of the Monster realm, I've heard feedback from the Goertz ribbon/flat cable. Many people I've talked to say the cable sounds clinical, while the advertisements have the marketing splash hype.
As an EE, I'm guessing there is something definitely going on with the cables. If a cable is a cable, then why all the sonic differences?
All a person really has to do is to listen and compare objectively. Use the stock "zip cord" wire that came with your components and then compare them to the M1000i or some other high end cable.
There is a difference to my ears. No fancy "marketing hype" either as I have a built in BS meter. Trips off often!
Percy
I had two of Monster's high end home cable. I'm using the M2.4 bi wire right now and I used to run the M1.5, which used to be the M series top of the line back in '95. HUGE difference. Yes, you can a/b/a all day long and DBT all you want and you'd still be able to pick them out.
Getting out of the Monster realm, I've heard feedback from the Goertz ribbon/flat cable. Many people I've talked to say the cable sounds clinical, while the advertisements have the marketing splash hype.
As an EE, I'm guessing there is something definitely going on with the cables. If a cable is a cable, then why all the sonic differences?
All a person really has to do is to listen and compare objectively. Use the stock "zip cord" wire that came with your components and then compare them to the M1000i or some other high end cable.
There is a difference to my ears. No fancy "marketing hype" either as I have a built in BS meter. Trips off often!
Percy
09-11-02, 03:58 AM
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09-11-02, 04:00 AM
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As for voodoo magic in the audio world...
Has anyone listened to an upsampling DAC? I think it sounds magnitudes better than just a standard 16/44 recording.
Why? If its interpolating data, how could it possibly sound better? It's just throwing in information...but it does! Far better!
I don't like things I can't explain...and this one is voodoo to me. I'd love to hear other's opinions.
I brought it up because I too didn't believe in the voodoo hype of some of these cable manufacturers, but I really have to wonder now if maybe some of its not voodoo
Tim
Has anyone listened to an upsampling DAC? I think it sounds magnitudes better than just a standard 16/44 recording.
Why? If its interpolating data, how could it possibly sound better? It's just throwing in information...but it does! Far better!
I don't like things I can't explain...and this one is voodoo to me. I'd love to hear other's opinions.
I brought it up because I too didn't believe in the voodoo hype of some of these cable manufacturers, but I really have to wonder now if maybe some of its not voodoo
Tim
09-11-02, 11:52 AM
#13
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Tim,
I haven't yet listened to an upsampled signal but there are a couple of things to watch out for. One is TRUE upsampling (Wadia products) in which according to some of the guys on audioasylum.com say it sounds a bit better, though not by much. Another type is not really upsampling at all, they're just increasing the clock speed to 96khz/24 bit. The signal itself (original cd) pretty much remains untouched. They're hyping the "upsampled" clock, but they really don't say anything about the signal. Some of the "kit" products from Sonic Frontiers have this. But, what can you really expect for a few hundred dollars?
Take a look at the pdf below.
http://www.vacuumstate.com/various/S...t-Brochure.pdf
There are several impulse waveforms. 48khz (no 44?) shows pre and post ringing while vinyl and SACD are more true to the original signal. The upsampled waveforms show considerable pre and post ringing. How many times have you heard pre and post ringing at the last concert that you've been to?
The reason why some "upsampling" units may sound better is due to their analog outboard stage construction. Also the clock may be more tightly regulated - ie better parts. Same with the power supply.
Throwing a loop here...
If all of this upsampling "marketing hype" is good, then a couple of companies went the other way. NO UPSAMPLING, that is instead of resampling at 8x, it's sampling at 1x. The TDA1541 does this as well as a few other dacs out there. Interesting article on this can be found at http://www.47labs.com From the guys over at audioasylum.com , 1x sampling has been very positive on sound and some claim BETTER sounding that upsamping. One of the big guys there, Thorsten Loesch, pretty much goes for 1x sampling all the way. Mention SACD and he gets off his high horse about 1x sampling.
If you properly design a 44.1/16 bit system with 20bit d/a's (to compensate for thermal noise) with a properly regulated clock, good op amps, excellent power supply and the whole nine yards, my guess is that you'll pretty much waste most of the high end systems out there. Even Mark Levinson doesn't use a good clock, they're just using "custom cut" crystal oscilators. Standard issue. Op amps, op2604's (burr brown) aren't top end either and aren't really known for resolution. This is in a piece that goes for well over 10 grand. Marketing hype and pretty pictures? You bet.
Cable manufacturers....I've had good experience with the high end Monster M series. I've tried MIT but definitely didn't like them. Kimber has mixed reviews as well as Goertz. Best bet is to listen to them yourself as they seem to be system dependent.
Percy
I haven't yet listened to an upsampled signal but there are a couple of things to watch out for. One is TRUE upsampling (Wadia products) in which according to some of the guys on audioasylum.com say it sounds a bit better, though not by much. Another type is not really upsampling at all, they're just increasing the clock speed to 96khz/24 bit. The signal itself (original cd) pretty much remains untouched. They're hyping the "upsampled" clock, but they really don't say anything about the signal. Some of the "kit" products from Sonic Frontiers have this. But, what can you really expect for a few hundred dollars?
Take a look at the pdf below.
http://www.vacuumstate.com/various/S...t-Brochure.pdf
There are several impulse waveforms. 48khz (no 44?) shows pre and post ringing while vinyl and SACD are more true to the original signal. The upsampled waveforms show considerable pre and post ringing. How many times have you heard pre and post ringing at the last concert that you've been to?
The reason why some "upsampling" units may sound better is due to their analog outboard stage construction. Also the clock may be more tightly regulated - ie better parts. Same with the power supply.
Throwing a loop here...
If all of this upsampling "marketing hype" is good, then a couple of companies went the other way. NO UPSAMPLING, that is instead of resampling at 8x, it's sampling at 1x. The TDA1541 does this as well as a few other dacs out there. Interesting article on this can be found at http://www.47labs.com From the guys over at audioasylum.com , 1x sampling has been very positive on sound and some claim BETTER sounding that upsamping. One of the big guys there, Thorsten Loesch, pretty much goes for 1x sampling all the way. Mention SACD and he gets off his high horse about 1x sampling.
If you properly design a 44.1/16 bit system with 20bit d/a's (to compensate for thermal noise) with a properly regulated clock, good op amps, excellent power supply and the whole nine yards, my guess is that you'll pretty much waste most of the high end systems out there. Even Mark Levinson doesn't use a good clock, they're just using "custom cut" crystal oscilators. Standard issue. Op amps, op2604's (burr brown) aren't top end either and aren't really known for resolution. This is in a piece that goes for well over 10 grand. Marketing hype and pretty pictures? You bet.
Cable manufacturers....I've had good experience with the high end Monster M series. I've tried MIT but definitely didn't like them. Kimber has mixed reviews as well as Goertz. Best bet is to listen to them yourself as they seem to be system dependent.
Percy
09-11-02, 06:19 PM
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www.audioreview.com,
Percy,
I just got a chance to look over that site...very informative! I can't believe how many Dyn' speakers they have reviews on. I even found the ones I am considering and they have reviews on it too (great feedback). Now I just need to go back to the shop and bargain hard.
Percy,
I just got a chance to look over that site...very informative! I can't believe how many Dyn' speakers they have reviews on. I even found the ones I am considering and they have reviews on it too (great feedback). Now I just need to go back to the shop and bargain hard.
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