Rico's Revenge

Hi guys, I am in desperate need for some high-end L-Pads TODAY!!! Any idea where I can find some? Most of the "usual" sources don't make/carry them anymore.

Thanks,

Todd

Percy

Todd,

Try this source...

http://www.percyaudio.com (No relation.) He carries high end parts, possibly some good L pads.

Percy

Rico's Revenge

Thank you kind sir!!

DoubleWhoosh

You know, I never did find any that seemed much better than the next...haven't thought about this for a while until you brought it up...

I did a pretty crazy all passive system a few years back, but now I don't seem to remember what I did about level control. I think I just messed with some resistors if I recall correctly.

Any feedback on what you found?

Todd Matsubara
TM Engineering LLC
www.tmengineering.net

Rico's Revenge

Hey Todd...thanks for checking in.

The source that Percy found is great. They have stuff that is WAY over what I would need. One of the other options I found was the Phoenix Gold LPAD1 and LPAD2. They haven't produced them in a while, but they had a few left at their dist. center in Oregon (they said they would blow off the dust and sell them cheap if I wanted them).

The deal was, I added kick panels. We took a Quart 5 1/4 seperate and made it into a coaxial by using the bracket from a coaxial (I know its confusing). We did this because the coax set comes with a 3/4" tweet but the seperate comes with a 1".

We crossed over the door speakers to play mid-bass, which with the enclosure built into the door now POPS!!

We thought we would need the L-pad to attenuate the rear doors since we didn't have enough amp channels to fully seperate all of the speakers. (We still may need to) But, we have it figured for now until we have the time to rip it up and do a crazy passive set up (I know Percy, active is easier because of variable slopes and phasing, but style counts in USACi as well).

I'll post a couple of pics of the new kicks later. They made an amazing difference. The tonal qualities are astounding now and my image is solid (but needs some tuning). We're getting there.

Thanks again guys.

T

PS...Todd, I met some guy a while back at a SLAPShow. He works for Tweeter here in the Dallas Area. I forget his name it was funky though...Falcon or something like that. He has a black T-Type with a motorized rear license plate that holds his secondary head unit. He talks a good game, but I didn't recognize him.

DoubleWhoosh

Oh yeah, that's our out-of-california member of our crew that used to do the sound off stuff. His name is actually Fortune, but I guess you were pretty close hah. That IS his real name though! He was from Vegas at that time, but he now lives in Dallas. He sounds like he's full of it, but that guy pretty much tells the straight truth...it just SEEMS all jazzed up hah.

He bought one of our other cars (just last year in fact) that Charlie Quong owned, it's an 87 LeSabre T-Type, with a 92 Park Avenue Ultra supercharged 3.8 swapped in. Pretty clean car, and I guess you saw the motorized license plate! That was my idea but my Thunderbird didn't have enough support in the bumper to do that, so the idea got pawned off onto that car. Lots of other unique things in that car... If you get a chance you should listen to it...pretty nice!

Todd Matsubara
TM Engineering LLC
www.tmengineering.net

Rico's Revenge

Hey Todd...

I just got back in from being gone all weekend...

I was in Houston for Import Expo yesterday, a completely bad a$$ show! There were 350 cars with probably 25 of them Lex's in the Luxury class. My old '95 showed them what was up and beat out all of them!

I actually just came from a USACi Triple-pointer here in Dallas (I'm in Basic SQ 301+). I walked away with 1st place in class, Best of Show Basic SQ and the Texas State Championship...not a bad weekend!

I obviously did well, but I have a problem with stage width. My imaging is rock solid centered and my height is pretty good too, but it's not real wide. While I didn't agree with the judges assessment of the width, it is within the car. My tweets are in the kicks so a thought would be to maybe move them to the A-Pillars. Any suggestions? I want to do (very) well at Finals.

Todd

Percy

Todd,

Just how "narrow" is the width of the SS? Any remarks from the judges on the score sheet?

With the tweets in the stock location the image height is just below eye level. Are they looking for mirror level?

I'd still try out a set of Dyns (hint!) since their wider dispersion just might give you the edge. Mean Gene listened to a set of these and his assesment of the dispersion was "impressive". You'll have to completely retune for spectral balance as the MB and the Dyn are two very different beasts.

Percy

DoubleWhoosh

I like dynaudios, but how can that be the solution to every problem?!?!




There's a lot you can do with whatever you already have, I'll get with you directly and see what your situation is exactly...can't be blabbing all the secrets in public I'm sure there's more than a couple things that will improve things dramatically.

My Accord had some of the first generation ever MB speakers, so obviously they aren't all that bad...go ask anyone who has listened to that car...prob still one of the best sounding cars I've ever heard regardless of equipment or power level. And I'm definitely not saying that because it was mine, I'm quite objective when it comes to my SQ opinions.

Percy

***First generation - the paper cone series? For some reason I like those better than the poly cones. More "depth" to them.***

Percy

Rico's Revenge

Percy, the judge said my soundstage started 8" (toward the center) from the A-pillars. NO WAY!!! It is not as wide as it was when I was using all stock locations, but it isn't that narrow either. Regardless, it needs to widen.

Todd, I would appreciate any and all "secrets" you would be willing to divulge and look forward to speaking to you!

My car sounds great! But I want it better and I have 8 weeks to get it there!!

Todd

bbfoto

Todd,

For your reference, here's a quote from Scott Buwalda from the CarSound forums:

"Actually, the lion's share of current top competitors have placed their main tweeters in the a-pillars:

Larry Chijner
Wilson Adcock
Jeff Smith
Steven Head
Chris Bakay
Mark Liggett
Jeff "Showtime" Gasier
Rob Harrison
Nick Wingate
Mike Peterson (Dale Fontenot's old T-Bird before Mike took ownership and made improvements)

...and many more I can't recall right now...oh yeah, me too...

Let me go on record right now in saying that I will never go back to kick panel-mounted tweeters. I tried it (for several years) with only decent success. Not until I started playing with tweets in the pillars did I realize what a stable stage really is. No more rainbow stage. No more stage just barely above the dashboard. Rather, a stage that is eye level, and linear all the way across, not to mention a position to sound stage outside of the vehicle, and width beyond the pillars.

Like anything, it requires finesse in installation. You can't just throw tweets into a-pillars and expect them to work. Of infinite importance to making tweets in the pillars work is their crossover frequency (and the ability of the mid-bass/midrange to play into the upper midrange octaves without cone breakup). Scott"

Todd,

I'm sure you know that Scott B is running MB Quarts as well. 1" Q tweets in the A-Pillars and mids in the kicks. If you do try out the A-Pillar mounted tweet setup, the trick is, as Scott states above, the XO frequency! Scott's XO is around 5khz and at least a 24dB/octave slope! Not all mid drivers can play cleanly to 5k, but your 5.25" mids should with no problems, and he says this is absoulutely the trick to getting the elusive depth and width your looking for. There's another thread on this forum that you were active in concerning basically the same concept at: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...5&pagenumber=2

I can vouch for this setup...I tried it myself and it works! I've had my tweets mounted in my A-Pillars for over 3 years now (Diamond Audio mid & silk tweets, 1st generation Hex drivers.) I played around for a long time adjusting speaker angles and placement. Like you, I had no problem getting a solid center image, eye-level height, and DECENT image placement/width-of-stage. However, I ALWAYS had a problem with side bias from either seat, and NEVER got the width outside of the A-Pillars, and rarely forward of the windshield...Even with time alignment.

Now, I can actually adjust the height, width, and depth by playing with the XO frequencies and slopes! The height is the easiest to adjust. It's a bit easier for me to do because I'm using the DEX/DEQ-P9 combo. I have my mids and tweets time-aligned to each other, so it's as if the mid and tweets were mounted coaxially, as far as pathlengths are concerned.

Hope this is useful.

(Percy, If you're reading this, I'm working on getting the schematics for the DEX/DEQ-P9 to check into some mods, so I'll let you know when I get 'em.)

Percy

Bill,

Scott brings up some very valid points. He's tried the kickpod routine (as mentioned) and the stock locations in the A pillars. I've listened to several PRO demo vehicles, specifically ones from McIntosh (BMW 325) and Sony's XES (full blown 15+ k$ setup) in a Toyota. The "official" one is in an Audi A8, but the small Toyota had MORE than the A8 in terms of channels and amplification. (All of which were the XES series based units - amps, speakers, etc) Third vehicle that I listened to was sponsored by (don't laugh too hard) Jensen. Ford Mustang with - you guessed it - kick panels/pods.

Now you would think THE PROS would have it right. Guess what - they didn't. The "frowning" effect or "rainbow" effect as Scott calls it, is, imo, unavoidable. I have YET to listen to a car that imaged correctly with the kickpods/panels. The stock locations in the GS sounds much better than the kickpods/panels did.

My recommendation would be to get speakers that have a very wide dispersion. MBQ tweets, believe it or not, have a fairly good dispersion pattern at 60 degrees off axis. It's their midwoofers that can't cut it, imo. (Sorry guys-this is from real life experience) Dyn tweets can't cut it beyond 60 degrees off axis - everything seems rolled off at 12khz. 45 degrees - fine. 30 degrees-great. On axis - awesome. At least with the GS you're still well within the Dyns "sweet spot". My previous installation in a '96 GP will put the torture in ANY speaker. You're talking about a tweeter location that is firing directly at the knee, well beyond 60 degrees off axis. There were only two tweets that could cut it marginally. MBQ and Infinity EMIT. Those were the only ones "bright" enough.

Switch over to the GS. MBQ, imo, becomes too bright even at the -6db setting. Xover of 5khz is about right, but the tweet needs much more padding than just at -6db. I have an on axis chart (Frequency response measured by the boys at Obreigheim, Germany - home of MBQ) of the MBQ Q series for the 5.25 and the 6.5 inch sets. At the high end (above 15k) you're looking at an AVERAGE of 10 dB HIGHER than the midrange. Kinda bright! If you can pad it down, fine. If not then find someway to do it!

Quart doesn't graph out the individual drivers. Even if they listed a "spec" on their website, I'd take it with a HUGE grain of salt. One of their component sets is rated for 40hz to 32khz. This is measured at -10dB BELOW the zero point and 10dB ABOVE the zero point. That's a 20dB swing-HUGE to say the least. Most home audio speakers would be ASHAMED of having such a large measurement swing. They're more tightly rated at -3db to 3db. 6 dB swing. Remember that every 10db will sound either twice as loud or 1/2 as loud, depending on where you're referencing the graph at. So if you took the 40hz and listened to it, 1khz would sound TWICE as loud as the 40hz. Above 17khz would sound FOUR TIMES as loud as 40hz. Scarry.

Playing around with slopes and frequency cutoffs is great to say the least. Still, if you're in competition, I'd suggest you get the settings down with an active and then build the passive xovers with the "hard core, top end" material. Alpha Cores, Vishay VSR4 resistors, Exotica or Hovland caps. It's going to get expensive QUICK. A Hovland cap will run an average of 30 to 50 dollars PER piece. But the end result - extra points.

Bill - you mention cone breakup. Don't forget about cone "ringing". There are alot of guys out there who will tout hard dome tweeters. Aluminum AND titanium. More so on the "grade 1 titanium". What MBQ DOES NOT reveal are the ringing effects after a transient. While the cone is still trying to "settle", a properly made soft dome tweeter would have already settled, ready for the next transient. Sort of like a single shot musket versus an M16 or AK47 - yes, it's THAT drastic in proportion. If you plug in another transient while the dome is trying to settle (titanium/aluminum) it introduces moocho distortion. They can tout the suspension that's made out of rubber all they want, but the end result is that the metal dome is still trying to settle. Sorta like sound damping your car. Before sound damping there's a "ring" to it. Takes a bit to settle. After sound damping there's very little "ring". The entire tweeter has to be engineered correctly to account for this. Can't be just the suspension or the dome material. Has to be the entire package.

Also for Bill - let me know when you get the schematics. I'll either be highly impressed by the quality of parts they put in the unit or highly disappointed. That's when we start to have fun. >)

Geez this was long.

Percy