Percy

Here's a headunit that was out in Japan for about a year - it's being imported here now. VERY nice! It's the only one that I know of that has 24 bit d/a's using the PCM1704.

http://www.redmountainaudio.com/Default.asp?ID=35

Percy

pcmw

WOW.

That is VERY SLICK.

How much do those cost?

MW

retrodrive

Heh, now that you mentioned it, I will be at Image Dynamics on saturday to compare Z1 to the ID deck in their auditioning room. I'll post the results later

retrodrive

Oh yea, the unit looks and feels very exspensive. I played around with it and I tell you this, if it was not for P9 processing capabilities, there would be no other unit I would run in my car!

Percy

Retro,

There was no price listed, but I'm guessing well over a grand. The nice thing is the white backlighting - matches the GS lighting, at least the guages anyways.

Another unit that has 24 bit PCM1704 - McIntosh MX5000. Not sold in the US, but it does have 24 bit WITH HDCD. Awesome sounding knowing Mc. I had the MX406 (looks almost identical) and was happy except that it didn't have a fast forward or reverse (track scan) capability.

P9 processing - do they have a seperate outboard processor that can do the same thing?

Percy

retrodrive

http://www.alphaaudio.co.jp/usa/denon_web/denon.html

DCT-R1 = $1100.00 And DCT-Z1 = $2500.00
that is retail but you will get different prices anywhere you look...usually higher

The P9 is a 2 piece unit with some pretty good processing but I would take F1 status over it any day. I am still waiting on IDONE though...as soon as it comes out the Pioneer is gone from my car.

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

Geez, that thing is gorgeous.
I'm a big Denon fan. But the last and only time I put a Denon head unit in my car was in the mid/late '80's, and the thing broke down on me three times. I got tired of taking it in and out of the dash to get repaired. And it was a top of the line unit at the time, easily competing with the Alpines. Wasn't 2500 bucks though. I only hope their car reliability has improved.

Loved the spec - "Quarts" clock - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :-)

PS: we're going to see a lot of 24 bit, 96 kHz stuff coming out all over the place - the parts have gotten cheaper and the chip manufacturers are focusing on 24/96. I just got back from the AES conf in LA a couple of weeks ago and the pro audio community is using it everywhere now, those parts will quickly trickle down as their pricing drops even further...

Percy

I'm still waiting for more manufacturers to include HDCD as part of their processing. With the right equipment, it makes a difference. Sony's newest and greatest (not yet disclosed) will have SACD decoding with a very high end processor.

Not surprised that more manufacturers will start using 24 bit. Right now, most of the 24 bit d/a's have been the Crystal CS4390. Fairly cheap to implement. PCM1704 was (and still is as of now) a rarity.

Denon reliability has been fairly good with the home stuff. Even heard of the nightmares of the car audio gear in the mid to late 80's also. That's why United Audio dropped their lineup back in '88. Too many problems and returns. At 2500, it had better be well improved!

Percy

engin_ear

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, the home and pro stuff is excellent. Just bought a Denon DN-D9000 dual 24-bit/192kHz CD player, hasn't arrived yet, can't wait. Has dual Sharc DSP's. I'll bet they're using the same A/D, D/A parts as this car headunit.

24 bit parts are being sourced by Analog Devices, Cirrus (Crystal), TI/Burr-Brown, AKM Semi, and a few others.

Rico's Revenge

Hey guys, the Denon is a great piece. I've been playing with it for a few months at a shop here in Dallas. The Z1 may be my new headunit for next season.

I have a serious question for you guys and I'm going to try to ask it with as much respect and delicacy as possible...

With the wealth of knowledge that you guys posses in the audio field, why do you want to "cheat" the system with digital processors and time alignment? If you guys are serious enough to buy the F#1 head at $3,000 and the processor at $6,000, why aren't you serious enough to do it the old fashion way and place your speakers properly. I understand the limitations of a vehicles acoustics and can be sympathetic with the difficulty in creating a good stage and other characteristics.

My car is FAR from perfect, but we have spent tremendous amounts of time to get the placement and crossovers right and the results thus far have been amazing...good enough to beat EVERY F#1 and P9 system I have been in competition with.

Please understand again, I am not trying to "flame" anyone. Call me old-fashioned, but I have no plans to go the easy route anytime in the near future.

Todd

retrodrive

Interesting question Todd! Personally I do think that with time allignment you sacrafice some stage properties. Some loose width and some loose the height. I have everything tuned pretty well as far as kickpanel angles and x-over points go but since the right kick panel is further away from you then left kick panel, some minor time allignment does work out well. Personally I would love to get read of the P9 combo, but I have nothing to replace it with. F1 is too expensive and not worth it and IDONE is not out yet. The thing is that all the analog EQ's and x-overs are old and no breakthrough possible with those units. On the other hand the digital EQ's etc is the whole new thing that everyone is trying to get into and develope further. At the first stages it's not going to be perfect but I am prepared to deal with it. P9 does not give you what you don't have in the first place. If your kickpanels, staging and installation is not up to par, no time alignment is going to help that. I am pretty sure that if you used F1 instead of your analog stuff it would sound as good or even better...who knows.

Just got back from ID, will post review shortly.

Percy

Todd,

You just opened up a huge can of worms! I can definitely understand the idea of "less is better", and that holds true with your installation. Less active processing, less electronics, less possible noise to get in the way - generally equals better sound.

Then there's the active method. Dual SHARC processors (or similar) in the F#1 Status, or possibly an XESZ50, P9, ID ONE or other method of active processing.

But, lets loosely define the word "processing". IME, that would entail changing the characteristics of the final sound by way of either speaker placement, an addition to the electronics complement or both. Both active and passive methods require lots of tuning time.

There really is no "easy way out" with these methods. F#1 Status has an "automatic" function, but this is to be used as a BASELINE only - it should never be "the final word" in tuning. There are always things that can be tweaked out. But unfortunately this requires much more than a simple RTA (Real Time Analyzer). You would need something with at least MLSSA capability, or if possible, something similar to the B&K Pulse line. Moocho bucks for that type of test equipment, but if you can interpret the readings correctly, it will help immensely.

"Automatic" processors (just hit a button and they auto tune) come in real handy when it comes to saving your ears. IME, the ear is only good for about 15 minutes of tuning time before they start to give you the wrong readings. What may sound good at 11pm (tired) will sound horrible at 8am the next morning, after the ears have recovered. There really is no "easy way out" with car audio. Those that have taken the auto route will have a mediocre sounding system. Had this happen with the PXAH600 and an Alpine head unit in a friends Acura Legend install.

You mention that you're beating out F#1 and P9. My bet - they didn't spend the countless hours of speaker positioning and crossover adjustment that you did. Plus their speakers and component selection (other than the "big processors") might not be up to snuff. For all I know they can be running the 8k$ F#1 Status with Jensen or Kraco speakers. (You never know! ) Or their installation could be questionable (air leaks? Etc...)

Speaker positioning versus active processing (time alignment, etc). There is, imo, no real way of "cheating". They are both in the equation and they both have to be addressed and taken care of.

Percy

retrodrive

Peoe here are mature enough for this post not be a can of worms

retrodrive

Here is the review Percy. At least two of us posted so that should be good enough:

http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=56554

Percy

Retro,

Saw the review. Interesting. Seems like Denon is possibly using some of their "standard issue" C4570C op amps again. Oh well. Still better than the NE5532's anyday.

Ever try the Apogee D/A converter? It's about 6 years old, sold for 2500 new and it was considered one of the best d/a's out there, bar none.

Percy