ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Everybody needs to start somewhere right? Was the first ever 911 "established"? I don't think so.

Why can't Lexus starting to "establish" with the LF-A?

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

They can and I'm sure they will, my only point is that as the YEARS wear on the car becomes more familiar and less spectacular. Lexus has just really lost most of the "wow" factor with th LF-A and that's what these cars are supposed to be all about.

8speed

Lexus did establish itself with the IS-F............end of discussion! Say what you want about the bulbous hood and retarded exhaust tips, the performance of the car is extremely competitive for its class and although some might argue that Lexus didn't hit it out of the park with the IS-F, I disagree if you factor in where they have come from. Small moves jr..........small moves

Dave600hL

But you are failing to see that the final product will not be what is going around at the moment. And your opinion on people and them losing that "wow" factor may be a little overstated. Why? B/c I know that at the dealer that I buy my cars from already has a 14 people on the waiting list and that is just one dealer and that is without knowing the price or specs on the car. (the general consensus over here in car mags so far has put the car at about $200K) People who are genuinely interested in this car don't care about a few extra years of development, it is only the people who are anxious to see what lexus will do with this car but have absolutely no intention of buying that may find the "wow" factor wearing out.

gengar

Wait, so what was your point again? My post was originally intended as a tongue-in-cheek comment about the silliness of talking about the 911 and "obsolete" design, but it appears you actually agree with me not only on the design level but on the performance level as well. It's just like your patently false claim that the GT-R design wasn't conceptualized until 2005. I don't know why you're so disappointed about the LF-A that you feel the need to make dozens of doom-and-gloom posts in various threads, but I certainly find it interesting that you feel you have to go to such intellectual dishonesty in order to support your feelings.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Looking back at my posts, I think that you may have misunderstood some of what I am saying in relation to 911 vs. LF-A.

Porsche is a proven player in this arena with several variants of the same car that have only ever changed slightly over the decades. The changes from one generation of 911 to the next can almost be forecasted because they are so predictable. That said, the 911 is considered one of the best handling and most balanced sports car available, effectively making it a benchmark.

Lexus came out of the gate in 2005 with everything to prove and now, four years later, have nothing to show for it but a second version of the same car, and a spyder variant of that. According to recent reports, the car is not even supposed to be for sale for another two years.

Porsche = established player with nothing to prove

Lexus = new kid on the block with everything to prove

I would have liked to see Lexus get more aggressive about making this car actually happen, rather than showing it and then letting all the buzz and excitement die down. Nissan has had their glory moment and now Infiniti is showing a promising sports car concept. Where is Lexus? Still track testing the same old hardware? It's old news now.

I personally don't like the shape of most Porsche's, and I really don't care for the 911 at all, but it's different when you are drawing on decades of heritage. I still think the LF-A is going to be a great car but the fact that it's development is taking so long is, IMO, one point where Lexus dropped the ball and failed to capture as much enthusiasm as they potentially could have.

I forgot about the original GT-R concept until someone above mentioned it...the one I was remembering is the 2005 GT-R Proto concept.

I'm disappointed because for a moment the entire automotive world gasped and thought, " Wait! Maybe Lexus actually isn't that boring if they're about to build a V10 exotic monster!" and now, four years later the excitement, buzz and expectations have all died down and nobody seems to care. Lexus failed to capitalize on that moment and as an enthusiast that is something I wish they had done better.

Even though the LF-A was just a concept, the general public knows to allow a year or two before a car makes it to production so the rumors were swirling for a while afterwards. Then two years later we get the LF-A II and more vague, "this is what we would like to build" comments from Lexus PR folks. Now, two years past that point with no further comment or information and the car is simply less exciting and more familiar and people are losing interest. People aren't going to sit around and hold their breath forever on something that MIGHT happen or a car that MIGHT get built. It simply gets old.

Lastly, cut it out with knocks on my integrity. Let's talk about the cars and you can keep the personal insults to yourself.

gengar

I think you were very clear. You said there would be new models of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, and the MB supercar and so the LF-A would be "obsolete". In the previous sentence you said the design was dated, so again, my original comment was made just tongue-in-cheek because I thought it was funny anyone would use the 911 in any context involving designs that weren't dated. I didn't read into it much - I was more amused than anything else, hence the emoticon.

But then all of a sudden you outright declare that the new 911 isn't going to be any less dated or any more dynamic? I mean, it wasn't even an admission, but an outright declaration. And I don't even agree with that belief, but it's very revealing as to your thought process. Like I said, the fact that you would actually say something like that, at the same time you would bring it up in an example about something else becoming obsolete, just demonstrates the lengths you are willing to go to grasp for straws to support your doom-and-gloom rants about the LF-A.


I'll stop criticizing your lack of integrity when you stop giving me reasons to. And yes, please talk about the cars. My point all along has been to talk about the cars, not make up reasons you yourself don't even believe in so you can doom-and-gloom everything Lexus has done wrong with the LF-A. At some point you'll just have to learn to let your disappointment go.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I do not care to split hairs with you and any longer and it seems at this point that we have a fundamental disagreement over the way that Lexus has handled the LF-A project. Because I do not agree with your point of view does not make me dishonest or lacking in integrity. Any further comments about me personally can be sent via PM. Thanks.

DASHOCKER

iTrader: (2)

It should start on a race track with some wins under its belt ala Porshe & others. Inquiring minds want to know what is an LF-A & what can it do?

ffpowerLN

iTrader: (1)

Faster time (unofficial) at the 'Ring than the GT-R. From a reliable source the time is pretty "official" but since LF-A is still under development so for the mean time it'll stay "unofficial".

Dunno about you but that's good enough for me.

Also, rumor has it that Toyota/Lexus is waiting for its first win in F1 before they debute the car so in a sense they are doing exactly what you think they should do.

8speed

Lexus is a proven luxury brand with an impeccable reputation for customer satisfaction and reliability. They are taking a nibble out of the performance market and killed it out of the gate with the IS-F IMO. They have nothing to prove....not to mention their parent company Toyota has been racing open wheel (and more recently nascar) for years successfully winning numerous championships.

Porsche has years of racing heritage as well and a strong pedigree and name in the market, but have had years of maintenance nightmares and engine failures with a rap sheet that looks like Santa's gift wish list.


Porsche needs to prove to me that they can build a car that doesn't have complete engine failure past 10k miles.

http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/?p=6#comments (small sample of hundreds of failures)



Lexus needs to prove they can continue to build awesome cars!

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

While I see your point and somewhat agree, shoe-horning a V8 into an existing RWD platform is very different from designing a mid engine, V10 exotic sports car (from the ground up) that competes with vehicles from Ferrari and Lamborghini. That isn't even apples to oranges...more like apples to pies.

The IS-F is a wonderful and capable first F car and yes Toyota does have racing experience and history, though not to the extent of Porsche. However, a car like the LF-A is unlike anything that they have ever done before and they WILL have to prove that they can do it successfully, or simply fall by the wayside, or fail. Judging by the efforts you mentioned (IS-F, professional racing trials and tribulations, maybe even the Supra) I am sure that they can come up with something compelling...I am just not sure why it is taking so long.

As for the last part of your post...Porsche's are supposed to be very reliable though I am personally not a fan. Lexus > Porsche for dependability and reliability any day of the week! I am hoping that Lexus brings that certain "Lexus charm" to the LF-A and makes it an enjoyable car to drive every day, but one that is also an absolute hell-raising terror when you want to do that too

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

gengar, MPLexus please take any personal commentary to PM - thanks. Keep this thread about the LF-A

Dave600hL

Did you just not answer your own question? Why are they taking so long?

(Takes a deep breath), You talk of porsche and other super cars and how established they are and how well they have perfected there cars and even stated that the 911 could be considered a bench mark(which I agree). So what makes you thing Lexus can slap together a car that will compete or even better these cars in "your" acceptable time frame which would be what... 4 years as oppossed to the time it has taken for porsche and co to get their cars right? Your expectations are ridiculus and not thought out IMO.

I believe that lexus at least wants to make a car that is right the first time. I mean have a look a the GTR, it took 8 years or so to be brought to life and they still got so many things wrong, I am hearing all sorts of compliants which I won't go into (not saying the GTR is a failure or not a good car). The IS-F was a complete after thought and I can only hear good things about it, no serious mechnical problems and it has a the worlds first 8 speed transmission.

I am sorry I just can't seem to grasp why you are so disappointed???

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

The LF-A was first shown in 2005 which means the car was in development a good bit of time before that- 2003/2004 is probably accurate. Now consider that the car isn't even supposed to go on sale until 2011, allegedly. 8 years is just an extremely long time so I hope that Lexus isn't spending these 8 years benchmarking F430s and Gallardos when those cars will be redesigned by the time the LF-A is introduced.

I too think Lexus wants to get it right the first time...if they didn't then it wouldn't be taking almost ten years for the car to arrive. I am just concerned that they are going to be sitting on the same formula for too long while the competition is being redesigned and upgraded. Hopefully the car is being designed so far above the F430, Gallardo, and 911 that even when their successors are introduced the LF-A will still make big splash. As the years wear on I am simply concerned about the LF-A's ability to remain competitive and wow the public when they've already been waiting for the car for the last 4 years.