Official LF-A(II) thread (Will debut at Tokyo Auto Show, Lexus details Oct 20th, 8pm)
10-15-09 | 04:10 PM
#2281
Lexus Champion
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,695
Likes: 2
From: CA
...given the Lexus F marque name, with F standing for flagship, it could then mean Lexus Flagship Automobile.
10-15-09 | 05:20 PM
#2282
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,274
Likes: 296
From: ------
Don't know how to do the whole multi quote thing so I will just hit a few points.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
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1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
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2("You don't know that. What we have seen is the LS go from 35k to 120k loaded and the new LS is the most expensive LS ever and the best selling LS ever.")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The LS is still not priced anywhere near a S class and I certainly am not complaining but there is a big difference between the pricing of the Japanese LS compared to its biggest rival the German S class and that does factor into sales. Most will not spend more on a luxury Japanese car like the LS then its closest German rival, the S class. Mercedes S550 base is around 91K without as many features, the LS460 base is around 63K and 77K for the long wheel base with more features. The base Mercedes S class is almost 30K more then a base LS, the base S class is still 14K higher then the long wheelbase LS. I am not complaining, I would get the much less expensive LS over the overpriced unreliable S class any day. Lexus like all Japanese lux brands sells on undercutting the price of the European competition with a much more reliable car and much better dealer service. Take away the price advantage, reliability advantage, and dealership experience of Lexus and sales would drop drastically, same with all Japanese lux brands vs German brands. Again that is why I prefer Japanese cars is they are priced lower and more reliable then the German competition, but I will give the German competition credit in that most German cars do come off as more upscale, significant, and higher end then the Japanese competition in many cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
3("The NSX was totally unheard of and the price was the highest at the time. With the yen conversation it was 90k by 2003, no one is arguing against your points here. Then you come and slap the LS in it with YOUR OPINION it was overpriced, even as we posted it sold over 300% past expectations and it was a special order car only. Don't just leave out the facts. If you want to throw cars in there, the market feels the RL is overpriced at a mere 46k.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Again with the LS hybrid sold over 300% past expectations, that is only because expectations were extremely LOW. There is no way they would not have been able to hit those low goals with such a popular selling name like the LS with a "greenie" hybrid image model. Basic marketing, if you know something probably will not sell that well especially at its price point you release really low expectations and then can release statements you are shocked it sold beyond expectations to try to convince people it is actually selling well when in reality it still sells in really low numbers. Acura could have also put sales expectations of the RL or RDX at just 100 a month and then released a statement that they are selling far beyond their very low expectations to make people think they are selling better. If the market feels the RL is overpriced at 46K then the market also feels the Lexus GS, SC, Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis, Toyota Tundra, etc are overpriced as they don't sell all that well either but we are talking about the LFA and NSX.
I really like the LFA and I am excited about it but when I see pictures and videos of it and look at what the specs are supposed to be I see a great looking car, a great achievement for Toyota, and something I would love to drive or own but I do not see $200-$300K+ sports car. . The high price is my main and really only issue with the LFA. I really hope the predictions are wrong and it is not going to be priced so high.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2("You don't know that. What we have seen is the LS go from 35k to 120k loaded and the new LS is the most expensive LS ever and the best selling LS ever.")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The LS is still not priced anywhere near a S class and I certainly am not complaining but there is a big difference between the pricing of the Japanese LS compared to its biggest rival the German S class and that does factor into sales. Most will not spend more on a luxury Japanese car like the LS then its closest German rival, the S class. Mercedes S550 base is around 91K without as many features, the LS460 base is around 63K and 77K for the long wheel base with more features. The base Mercedes S class is almost 30K more then a base LS, the base S class is still 14K higher then the long wheelbase LS. I am not complaining, I would get the much less expensive LS over the overpriced unreliable S class any day. Lexus like all Japanese lux brands sells on undercutting the price of the European competition with a much more reliable car and much better dealer service. Take away the price advantage, reliability advantage, and dealership experience of Lexus and sales would drop drastically, same with all Japanese lux brands vs German brands. Again that is why I prefer Japanese cars is they are priced lower and more reliable then the German competition, but I will give the German competition credit in that most German cars do come off as more upscale, significant, and higher end then the Japanese competition in many cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
3("The NSX was totally unheard of and the price was the highest at the time. With the yen conversation it was 90k by 2003, no one is arguing against your points here. Then you come and slap the LS in it with YOUR OPINION it was overpriced, even as we posted it sold over 300% past expectations and it was a special order car only. Don't just leave out the facts. If you want to throw cars in there, the market feels the RL is overpriced at a mere 46k.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Again with the LS hybrid sold over 300% past expectations, that is only because expectations were extremely LOW. There is no way they would not have been able to hit those low goals with such a popular selling name like the LS with a "greenie" hybrid image model. Basic marketing, if you know something probably will not sell that well especially at its price point you release really low expectations and then can release statements you are shocked it sold beyond expectations to try to convince people it is actually selling well when in reality it still sells in really low numbers. Acura could have also put sales expectations of the RL or RDX at just 100 a month and then released a statement that they are selling far beyond their very low expectations to make people think they are selling better. If the market feels the RL is overpriced at 46K then the market also feels the Lexus GS, SC, Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis, Toyota Tundra, etc are overpriced as they don't sell all that well either but we are talking about the LFA and NSX.
I really like the LFA and I am excited about it but when I see pictures and videos of it and look at what the specs are supposed to be I see a great looking car, a great achievement for Toyota, and something I would love to drive or own but I do not see $200-$300K+ sports car. . The high price is my main and really only issue with the LFA. I really hope the predictions are wrong and it is not going to be priced so high.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
10-15-09 | 05:44 PM
#2283
Don't know how to do the whole multi quote thing so I will just hit a few points.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2("You don't know that. What we have seen is the LS go from 35k to 120k loaded and the new LS is the most expensive LS ever and the best selling LS ever.")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The LS is still not priced anywhere near a S class and I certainly am not complaining but there is a big difference between the pricing of the Japanese LS compared to its biggest rival the German S class and that does factor into sales. Most will not spend more on a luxury Japanese car like the LS then its closest German rival, the S class. Mercedes S550 base is around 91K without as many features, the LS460 base is around 63K and 77K for the long wheel base with more features. The base Mercedes S class is almost 30K more then a base LS, the base S class is still 14K higher then the long wheelbase LS. I am not complaining, I would get the much less expensive LS over the overpriced unreliable S class any day. Lexus like all Japanese lux brands sells on undercutting the price of the European competition with a much more reliable car and much better dealer service. Take away the price advantage, reliability advantage, and dealership experience of Lexus and sales would drop drastically, same with all Japanese lux brands vs German brands. Again that is why I prefer Japanese cars is they are priced lower and more reliable then the German competition, but I will give the German competition credit in that most German cars do come off as more upscale, significant, and higher end then the Japanese competition in many cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
3("The NSX was totally unheard of and the price was the highest at the time. With the yen conversation it was 90k by 2003, no one is arguing against your points here. Then you come and slap the LS in it with YOUR OPINION it was overpriced, even as we posted it sold over 300% past expectations and it was a special order car only. Don't just leave out the facts. If you want to throw cars in there, the market feels the RL is overpriced at a mere 46k.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Again with the LS hybrid sold over 300% past expectations, that is only because expectations were extremely LOW. There is no way they would not have been able to hit those low goals with such a popular selling name like the LS with a "greenie" hybrid image model. Basic marketing, if you know something probably will not sell that well especially at its price point you release really low expectations and then can release statements you are shocked it sold beyond expectations to try to convince people it is actually selling well when in reality it still sells in really low numbers. Acura could have also put sales expectations of the RL or RDX at just 100 a month and then released a statement that they are selling far beyond their very low expectations to make people think they are selling better. If the market feels the RL is overpriced at 46K then the market also feels the Lexus GS, SC, Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis, Toyota Tundra, etc are overpriced as they don't sell all that well either but we are talking about the LFA and NSX.
I really like the LFA and I am excited about it but when I see pictures and videos of it and look at what the specs are supposed to be I see a great looking car, a great achievement for Toyota, and something I would love to drive or own but I do not see $200-$300K+ sports car. . The high price is my main and really only issue with the LFA. I really hope the predictions are wrong and it is not going to be priced so high.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2("You don't know that. What we have seen is the LS go from 35k to 120k loaded and the new LS is the most expensive LS ever and the best selling LS ever.")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The LS is still not priced anywhere near a S class and I certainly am not complaining but there is a big difference between the pricing of the Japanese LS compared to its biggest rival the German S class and that does factor into sales. Most will not spend more on a luxury Japanese car like the LS then its closest German rival, the S class. Mercedes S550 base is around 91K without as many features, the LS460 base is around 63K and 77K for the long wheel base with more features. The base Mercedes S class is almost 30K more then a base LS, the base S class is still 14K higher then the long wheelbase LS. I am not complaining, I would get the much less expensive LS over the overpriced unreliable S class any day. Lexus like all Japanese lux brands sells on undercutting the price of the European competition with a much more reliable car and much better dealer service. Take away the price advantage, reliability advantage, and dealership experience of Lexus and sales would drop drastically, same with all Japanese lux brands vs German brands. Again that is why I prefer Japanese cars is they are priced lower and more reliable then the German competition, but I will give the German competition credit in that most German cars do come off as more upscale, significant, and higher end then the Japanese competition in many cases.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
3("The NSX was totally unheard of and the price was the highest at the time. With the yen conversation it was 90k by 2003, no one is arguing against your points here. Then you come and slap the LS in it with YOUR OPINION it was overpriced, even as we posted it sold over 300% past expectations and it was a special order car only. Don't just leave out the facts. If you want to throw cars in there, the market feels the RL is overpriced at a mere 46k.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Again with the LS hybrid sold over 300% past expectations, that is only because expectations were extremely LOW. There is no way they would not have been able to hit those low goals with such a popular selling name like the LS with a "greenie" hybrid image model. Basic marketing, if you know something probably will not sell that well especially at its price point you release really low expectations and then can release statements you are shocked it sold beyond expectations to try to convince people it is actually selling well when in reality it still sells in really low numbers. Acura could have also put sales expectations of the RL or RDX at just 100 a month and then released a statement that they are selling far beyond their very low expectations to make people think they are selling better. If the market feels the RL is overpriced at 46K then the market also feels the Lexus GS, SC, Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis, Toyota Tundra, etc are overpriced as they don't sell all that well either but we are talking about the LFA and NSX.
I really like the LFA and I am excited about it but when I see pictures and videos of it and look at what the specs are supposed to be I see a great looking car, a great achievement for Toyota, and something I would love to drive or own but I do not see $200-$300K+ sports car. . The high price is my main and really only issue with the LFA. I really hope the predictions are wrong and it is not going to be priced so high.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
I would compare the NSX to the supra ... great cars for their time that could rival much higher priced sports cars. And the GTR is today what the NSX was before.
LFA = Ferrari / lambo / McClaren / etc .... NOT even close to the nsx... as those are the cars lexus benchmarked when developing the car (LFA)
10-15-09 | 06:32 PM
#2284
Lexus Champion
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,370
Likes: 0
From: NY
Don't know how to do the whole multi quote thing so I will just hit a few points.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
******snip snip***********
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
******snip snip***********
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
A lot of us here wouldn't be able to, and I'm sure all are disappointed, but that does not make us hate the car. If not, it makes us salivate at the thought of an SC F to fill the gap between the IS F and the LFA.
Since when does placing the engine behind the driver make a car more exotic? the MR-2, Fierro & Cayman are all rear mid-engined, does that make them more exotic than the LF-A?
10-15-09 | 07:57 PM
#2285
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,274
Likes: 296
From: ------
Read up on the NSX. The Ferrari 348 was the main car the NSX bench marked and beat, which is why it was mid engined and not front engined like a Supra and why the NSX was mostly compared to the Ferrari in tests. The last gen Supra came out several years after the NSX and it bench marked and competed with the 300ZX tt, 911 turbo, Skyline GTR, and Porsche 928. The front engined rwd LFA has more in common with the last front engined rwd Supra. The mid engined hand built rwd NSX had much more in common with a a mid engined rwd Ferrari 348 then a Supra GT type car. The mid engined NSX was the car bench marked by Gordon Murray for the mid engined McLaren F1.
10-15-09 | 08:03 PM
#2286
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,274
Likes: 296
From: ------
So basically, you are just bitter because you can't get an LFA?
A lot of us here wouldn't be able to, and I'm sure all are disappointed, but that does not make us hate the car. If not, it makes us salivate at the thought of an SC F to fill the gap between the IS F and the LFA.
Since when does placing the engine behind the driver make a car more exotic? the MR-2, Fierro & Cayman are all rear mid-engined, does that make them more exotic than the LF-A?
A lot of us here wouldn't be able to, and I'm sure all are disappointed, but that does not make us hate the car. If not, it makes us salivate at the thought of an SC F to fill the gap between the IS F and the LFA.
Since when does placing the engine behind the driver make a car more exotic? the MR-2, Fierro & Cayman are all rear mid-engined, does that make them more exotic than the LF-A?
10-15-09 | 08:17 PM
#2287
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,285
Likes: 0
From: A better place
Sorry, nothing what I said is drivel. Many agree with me about the legacy of the NSX and also how they feel about the LFA, look on other forums talking about the LFA. Most like me really like the design and are excited about the LFA but if it is well over 200K find it way too expensive and overpriced and are also disappointed it will be built in such small numbers. It is just not as big a deal when most feel it is way overpriced then if priced more reasonably and still performed very well and beat its higher priced competition. If I was in the market and could spend up to 150K on a sports car and the LFA was under 150K the LFA would definitely be my top choice but over 150K it is too expensive and well over 200K into the 300K range it is just way overpriced, and I would be definitely looking to other options. Thing is at those prices and rarity we are getting excited about a Lexus most of us will never be able to see on the road in our lifetimes none the less possibly drive, sit in, or own.
You consider a mid-engine V6 car an "exotic" but to you, a front-engine, rear transmission, rear radiator, carbon fiber with carbon brakes exotic supercar is not "exotic"?
By your logic, the Toyota MR-2 was an exotic just because it was mid-engine
.It really does sound like you are simply bitter and hating on the LFA just because you can't afford it
.The LFA is going to be, by far, the most significant performance car to ever come from Japan. It will be the FIRST exotic supercar from Japan, and the highest-performing car from Japan ever made.
I can certainly imagine that must make a lot of NSX and GT-R fans very bitter due to:
1.) The fact that most of them will be nowhere close to being able to afford an LFA
2.) The fact that the LFA will blow away the NSX and beat the GTR performance-wise.
Interesting! Originally, the LF designation was short for Lexus Future...like Lexus Future Sedan (LF-S). However, LF-A was not fully spelt out AFAIK; other than Lexus Future A. I suppose it could be Lexus Future Automobile...
...given the Lexus F marque name, with F standing for flagship, it could then mean Lexus Flagship Automobile.
...given the Lexus F marque name, with F standing for flagship, it could then mean Lexus Flagship Automobile.
Don't know how to do the whole multi quote thing so I will just hit a few points.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
Guess what else, the most exotic Porsche ever made, the Carrera GT had a V10 engine. Not a flat 6, a V10.
Please name me ALL the cars currently that come with a V10. There are only a handful of production V10 cars in the world today. Also FYI, BMW is moving AWAY from V10 engines for their M cars, so in the future V10 cars will be even MORE rare!
Not ALL Ferraris are considered exotic either. Old V6 Ferraris are not considered exotic.
You can disagree and argue all you want, but the fact is that the NSX was never an exotic, or exotic supercar. It can be argued that the NSX *may have* been simply a supercar, but that is debatable. The performance of the NSX thought did not come close to supercars of the time like the Porsche 959 or Ferrari F40.
The fact that the NSX was never an exotic is not debatable. For the NSX to be an exotic it would have had to be very rare for starters.
I have to say .... the LFA is not even in the same league as the NSX ... nor the GTR for that matter ...
I would compare the NSX to the supra ... great cars for their time that could rival much higher priced sports cars. And the GTR is today what the NSX was before.
LFA = Ferrari / lambo / McClaren / etc .... NOT even close to the nsx... as those are the cars lexus benchmarked when developing the car (LFA)
I would compare the NSX to the supra ... great cars for their time that could rival much higher priced sports cars. And the GTR is today what the NSX was before.
LFA = Ferrari / lambo / McClaren / etc .... NOT even close to the nsx... as those are the cars lexus benchmarked when developing the car (LFA)
Read up on the NSX. The Ferrari 348 was the main car the NSX bench marked and beat, which is why it was mid engined and not front engined like a Supra and why the NSX was mostly compared to the Ferrari in tests. The last gen Supra came out several years after the NSX and it bench marked and competed with the 300ZX tt, 911 turbo, Skyline GTR, and Porsche 928. The front engined rwd LFA has more in common with the last front engined rwd Supra. The mid engined hand built rwd NSX had much more in common with a a mid engined rwd Ferrari 348 then a Supra GT type car. The mid engined NSX was the car bench marked by Gordon Murray for the mid engined McLaren F1.
. Get a grip, mid-engine placement ALONE does NOT make a car an exotic! Front-engine placement ALONE does NOT exclude a car from being an exotic!
I bet you think a Benz SLR is not an exotic just because it's a front engine car, right?
Wow, for someone who is supposedly an NSX fan, you don't know very much facts about the NSX development.
First off, Honda originally benchmarked the Ferrari 308/328, NOT the 348. Late in development Honda made some changes and fine-tuning to better compete with the 348, such as adding VTEC to the engine which was a late change. The NSX never originally benchmarked the 348.
The Gen 4 Supra TT was often compared to the Ferrari 348, just like the NSX was. Without a speed limiter, a Mark 4 Supra TT can hit a top speed of 175 mph, faster than the top speed of the NSX (168 mph).
The LFA has an F1-derived V10 engine that revs to 9000 RPM. Please tell me, HOW many production V10 engines on the market today can rev to 9000 RPM? The LFA has an F1-derived sequential manual transmission, the same sort of transmissions used in Formula 1 today. Like an F1 car, the LFA has carbon brakes. Like an F1 car, it is made almost entirely of carbon fiber. Like an F1 car today, the transmission is mounted in the rear, and the radiators are at the rear. Like an F1 car, the LFA has a large rear diffuser, and an specially-shaped underbody for aerodynamics and for efficient airflow being guided to the diffuser.
Fact is, the LFA has a lot of similarities to F1 cars, and really has almost nothing to do with the Supra, other than the fact that it is front engine and has 4 wheels.
You're also wrong about Gordon Murray. He benchmarked the NSX only for it's handling and balance. Murray thought that the NSX's V6 engine was too weak. He actually asked Honda to build him a V10 or V12 engine for the Mclaren F1, but Honda refused repeatedly (in famous stubborn Honda fashion) and instead BMW built Mclaren a V12.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 10-15-09 at 09:04 PM.
10-15-09 | 08:31 PM
#2288
Lexus Champion
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,448
Likes: 2
From: Japan
Not bitter at all I can't get a LFA or any super expensive rare car. Right now I could not afford a LFA at 100K-140K but I would not feel it was over priced at that price and would be highly impressed it could beat cars costing much more. I would be praising the LFA and not have an issue with the price even if I could not realistically afford one. I don't care if I personally can't afford it, but I do care if it seems way overpriced for what you are getting to me and many will criticize it for being way too expensive. It would be nice to at least see one on the road which I doubt will happen at that 250K-350K price. I don't hate the LFA either, don't put words in my mouth. I am disappointed the price keeps skyrocketing and it is going to be so expensive.
Seems to me like you have read to much internet and believed every word of what people have being saying up until now, that is probably a little gulible of you. And not to mention you have no idea as to what this car will offer, as do any of us, so how can you say it is over priced?
I agree, your posts are just regurgitated drivel from the net and your poor thought process...
10-15-09 | 08:44 PM
#2289
Guest
Posts: n/a
Let me start by saying I love the NSX and everyone here knows this. NSXPrime knows this. I consider it one of the greatest cars of all time. I also am not going to get into a debate if its an exotic or not b/c THAT DEBATE has been going on SINCE 1990! It won't be solved here.
I will say this. While you can "debate" if the NSX is an exotic, you CANNOT debate the LF-A is one of not. For goodness sakes it has all the ingredients of an exotic, big rare engine, Carbon fiber, rarity, price, incredible performance.
You are not reading what I am saying, which is truth. Instead you are just passing your opinion on as facts and fogging everything up bringing up a bunch of vehicles that have NOTHING to do with the LF-A.
Oh here are some front engine cars that are exotics.
The Funny thing is the next NSX was going to be a front engine V-10.
So would the next very ugly NSX not have been an exotic?????
I will say this. While you can "debate" if the NSX is an exotic, you CANNOT debate the LF-A is one of not. For goodness sakes it has all the ingredients of an exotic, big rare engine, Carbon fiber, rarity, price, incredible performance.
Don't know how to do the whole multi quote thing so I will just hit a few points.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
Many? Who? We have heard 150k-400k for the price. Acura can't sell a 50k anything so why bring the NSX up? Why?
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1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
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Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
Why the heck do you keep bringing up a 2nd NSX that is not coming. Honda/Acura dropped the ball again. Its not coming, its not here, why bring up what it "might" do? Your history is weak and your examples are poor.
NSX-252 hp Automatic equipped, 290hp manual equipped V-6.
The cars you are mentioning
Jaguar XJ220-For goodness sakes the car did what 218mph. This was no low hp V-6.
What Ferrari V-6? The California is the first front engine V-8 in history.
BMW M1 was never considered an exotic. Maybe a supercar, like the GT-R but no exotic.
A Porsche 911 with a Flat 6 is not an exotic. A Turbo 911 with 500hp is not an exotic. Its a supercar.
A Porsche CGT with the V-10 is an exotic. Get it right.
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2("You don't know that. What we have seen is the LS go from 35k to 120k loaded and the new LS is the most expensive LS ever and the best selling LS ever.")
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The LS is still not priced anywhere near a S class and I certainly am not complaining but there is a big difference between the pricing of the Japanese LS compared to its biggest rival the German S class and that does factor into sales. Most will not spend more on a luxury Japanese car like the LS then its closest German rival, the S class. Mercedes S550 base is around 91K without as many features, the LS460 base is around 63K and 77K for the long wheel base with more features. The base Mercedes S class is almost 30K more then a base LS, the base S class is still 14K higher then the long wheelbase LS. I am not complaining, I would get the much less expensive LS over the overpriced unreliable S class any day. Lexus like all Japanese lux brands sells on undercutting the price of the European competition with a much more reliable car and much better dealer service. Take away the price advantage, reliability advantage, and dealership experience of Lexus and sales would drop drastically, same with all Japanese lux brands vs German brands. Again that is why I prefer Japanese cars is they are priced lower and more reliable then the German competition, but I will give the German competition credit in that most German cars do come off as more upscale, significant, and higher end then the Japanese competition in many cases.
Why are we talking about the S/LS? Why? What does this have to do with anything?
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3("The NSX was totally unheard of and the price was the highest at the time. With the yen conversation it was 90k by 2003, no one is arguing against your points here. Then you come and slap the LS in it with YOUR OPINION it was overpriced, even as we posted it sold over 300% past expectations and it was a special order car only. Don't just leave out the facts. If you want to throw cars in there, the market feels the RL is overpriced at a mere 46k.")
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Again with the LS hybrid sold over 300% past expectations, that is only because expectations were extremely LOW.
And AGAIN, you have NO PROOF of this. This is YOUR opinion. What we DO KNOW is the LS 600h L was a limited production model. Its not a car in stock on dealer lots. The facts we have are it was bought at 300% past expectations
There is no way they would not have been able to hit those low goals with such a popular selling name like the LS with a "greenie" hybrid image model. Basic marketing, if you know something probably will not sell that well especially at its price point you release really low expectations and then can release statements you are shocked it sold beyond expectations to try to convince people it is actually selling well when in reality it still sells in really low numbers.
Again, you are bashing the LS for no reason in a R8 and now LF-A thread? Why? Let me explain something. THe LS was the first and currently only JApanese sedan over 100k. It was never done before. Do you think Lexus is going to produce thousands in advance? Hell no! They probably were super cautious as the 100k barrier at the time is for European cars only! The LS 600h L feat is nothing short of remarkable. Yet you bash it.
Acura could have also put sales expectations of the RL or RDX at just 100 a month and then released a statement that they are selling far beyond their very low expectations to make people think they are selling better.
Wrong again. We have the Acura facts. They wanted to sell 20k RLs the first year (conservative) and 20k RDXs the first year (conservative) and they FAILED and DID NOT meet expectations. They had LOW sales goals and didn't meet them. Yet you are giving them a pass?
If the market feels the RL is overpriced at 46K then the market also feels the Lexus GS, SC, Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis, Toyota Tundra, etc are overpriced as they don't sell all that well either but we are talking about the LFA and NSX.
Wrong again. The GS sold 34k units in its first year and was 2k past the sales goal. The M class also sold about 30k units. Both offer more expensive models than the RL. The Genesis is doing fine and the Tundra who cares? Why are you even bringing it up? Why are you fogging Acura's sales failures by trying to bring up other cars?
Let me drop more knowledge on you. The SC 430 sold what 3k IN ADVANCE before it was even sold. LExus had 3k deposits on a car that hadn't hit dealers yet. Sales were low as IT IS A LIMITED PRODUCTION MODEL. 12k the first year and 10k after. Yeah sales stink today, its much older than anything else but it did its job WHEN IT WAS EXPECTED TOO.
I really like the LFA and I am excited about it but when I see pictures and videos of it and look at what the specs are supposed to be I see a great looking car, a great achievement for Toyota, and something I would love to drive or own but I do not see $200-$300K+ sports car. . The high price is my main and really only issue with the LFA. I really hope the predictions are wrong and it is not going to be priced so high.
Fine, your opinion.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
First I have no problem with the LFA other then it being priced so high. Many including me expected it to be priced around 105K-140K and felt even though that is expensive it is not too bad if the performance and looks are there. Then the price kept going up and up and up every time new information came out and now it is just really overpriced. If the v10 Acura NSX replacement was going to be priced at 250K plus I would be saying the same thing that it is way too expensive and disappointing.
Many? Who? We have heard 150k-400k for the price. Acura can't sell a 50k anything so why bring the NSX up? Why?
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1("That is your opinion. Surely all 500 will be snatched up, so the price to prospective buyers, is justified. Maybe the 2nd NSX, which was to have a V-10. A V-6 engine is not exotic and there is nothing exotic about it, no matter how great it is. Correct but the LF-A from what we know has the merits to back up its price.")
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Unfortunately they will get snatched up mostly by collectors at that price looking to make a profit on a really expensive rare car, not enthusiasts who would actually drive it going by the merits of the actual vehicle. The type of engine or number of cylinders is not the only thing that makes a car an exotic, especially these days. A v10 is not really exotic anymore, a v12 is not even that exotic, both can be had in luxury/sports sedans for a long time. The Jaguar XJ220 had a v6 and it was considered a exotic supercar, yes it was turbo charged but turbo v6s are found in common cars too. Ferrari had a v6, BMW M1 had a six cylinder, Porsches use 6 cylinders-yes they are flat engines but Subaru uses flat engines too. If you are going to say a v6 can't be exotic then I can say having the engine up front can't be exotic either.
Why the heck do you keep bringing up a 2nd NSX that is not coming. Honda/Acura dropped the ball again. Its not coming, its not here, why bring up what it "might" do? Your history is weak and your examples are poor.
NSX-252 hp Automatic equipped, 290hp manual equipped V-6.
The cars you are mentioning
Jaguar XJ220-For goodness sakes the car did what 218mph. This was no low hp V-6.
What Ferrari V-6? The California is the first front engine V-8 in history.
BMW M1 was never considered an exotic. Maybe a supercar, like the GT-R but no exotic.
A Porsche 911 with a Flat 6 is not an exotic. A Turbo 911 with 500hp is not an exotic. Its a supercar.
A Porsche CGT with the V-10 is an exotic. Get it right.
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2("You don't know that. What we have seen is the LS go from 35k to 120k loaded and the new LS is the most expensive LS ever and the best selling LS ever.")
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The LS is still not priced anywhere near a S class and I certainly am not complaining but there is a big difference between the pricing of the Japanese LS compared to its biggest rival the German S class and that does factor into sales. Most will not spend more on a luxury Japanese car like the LS then its closest German rival, the S class. Mercedes S550 base is around 91K without as many features, the LS460 base is around 63K and 77K for the long wheel base with more features. The base Mercedes S class is almost 30K more then a base LS, the base S class is still 14K higher then the long wheelbase LS. I am not complaining, I would get the much less expensive LS over the overpriced unreliable S class any day. Lexus like all Japanese lux brands sells on undercutting the price of the European competition with a much more reliable car and much better dealer service. Take away the price advantage, reliability advantage, and dealership experience of Lexus and sales would drop drastically, same with all Japanese lux brands vs German brands. Again that is why I prefer Japanese cars is they are priced lower and more reliable then the German competition, but I will give the German competition credit in that most German cars do come off as more upscale, significant, and higher end then the Japanese competition in many cases.
Why are we talking about the S/LS? Why? What does this have to do with anything?
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3("The NSX was totally unheard of and the price was the highest at the time. With the yen conversation it was 90k by 2003, no one is arguing against your points here. Then you come and slap the LS in it with YOUR OPINION it was overpriced, even as we posted it sold over 300% past expectations and it was a special order car only. Don't just leave out the facts. If you want to throw cars in there, the market feels the RL is overpriced at a mere 46k.")
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Again with the LS hybrid sold over 300% past expectations, that is only because expectations were extremely LOW.
And AGAIN, you have NO PROOF of this. This is YOUR opinion. What we DO KNOW is the LS 600h L was a limited production model. Its not a car in stock on dealer lots. The facts we have are it was bought at 300% past expectations
There is no way they would not have been able to hit those low goals with such a popular selling name like the LS with a "greenie" hybrid image model. Basic marketing, if you know something probably will not sell that well especially at its price point you release really low expectations and then can release statements you are shocked it sold beyond expectations to try to convince people it is actually selling well when in reality it still sells in really low numbers.
Again, you are bashing the LS for no reason in a R8 and now LF-A thread? Why? Let me explain something. THe LS was the first and currently only JApanese sedan over 100k. It was never done before. Do you think Lexus is going to produce thousands in advance? Hell no! They probably were super cautious as the 100k barrier at the time is for European cars only! The LS 600h L feat is nothing short of remarkable. Yet you bash it.
Acura could have also put sales expectations of the RL or RDX at just 100 a month and then released a statement that they are selling far beyond their very low expectations to make people think they are selling better.
Wrong again. We have the Acura facts. They wanted to sell 20k RLs the first year (conservative) and 20k RDXs the first year (conservative) and they FAILED and DID NOT meet expectations. They had LOW sales goals and didn't meet them. Yet you are giving them a pass?
If the market feels the RL is overpriced at 46K then the market also feels the Lexus GS, SC, Infiniti M, Hyundai Genesis, Toyota Tundra, etc are overpriced as they don't sell all that well either but we are talking about the LFA and NSX.
Wrong again. The GS sold 34k units in its first year and was 2k past the sales goal. The M class also sold about 30k units. Both offer more expensive models than the RL. The Genesis is doing fine and the Tundra who cares? Why are you even bringing it up? Why are you fogging Acura's sales failures by trying to bring up other cars?
Let me drop more knowledge on you. The SC 430 sold what 3k IN ADVANCE before it was even sold. LExus had 3k deposits on a car that hadn't hit dealers yet. Sales were low as IT IS A LIMITED PRODUCTION MODEL. 12k the first year and 10k after. Yeah sales stink today, its much older than anything else but it did its job WHEN IT WAS EXPECTED TOO.
I really like the LFA and I am excited about it but when I see pictures and videos of it and look at what the specs are supposed to be I see a great looking car, a great achievement for Toyota, and something I would love to drive or own but I do not see $200-$300K+ sports car. . The high price is my main and really only issue with the LFA. I really hope the predictions are wrong and it is not going to be priced so high.
Fine, your opinion.
When someone says the front engined LFA is somehow an exotic or supercar but the mid engined NSX is not or never was, I have to totally disagree with that.
Oh here are some front engine cars that are exotics.
The Funny thing is the next NSX was going to be a front engine V-10.
So would the next very ugly NSX not have been an exotic?????
Last edited by LexFather; 10-15-09 at 09:47 PM.
10-15-09 | 11:10 PM
#2292
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,274
Likes: 296
From: ------
You have just lost what little credibility on this forum that you may have had previously.
You consider a mid-engine V6 car an "exotic" but to you, a front-engine, rear transmission, rear radiator, carbon fiber with carbon brakes exotic supercar is not "exotic"?
By your logic, the Toyota MR-2 was an exotic just because it was mid-engine.
It really does sound like you are simply bitter and hating on the LFA just because you can't afford it.
The LFA is going to be, by far, the most significant performance car to ever come from Japan. It will be the FIRST exotic supercar from Japan, and the highest-performing car from Japan ever made.
I can certainly imagine that must make a lot of NSX and GT-R fans very bitter due to:
1.) The fact that most of them will be nowhere close to being able to afford an LFA
2.) The fact that the LFA will blow away the NSX and beat the GTR performance-wise.
Please name me ALL the cars currently that come with a V10. There are only a handful of production V10 cars in the world today. Also FYI, BMW is moving AWAY from V10 engines for their M cars, so in the future V10 cars will be even MORE rare!
Not ALL Ferraris are considered exotic either. Old V6 Ferraris are not considered exotic.
The performance of the NSX thought did not come close to supercars of the time like the Porsche 959 or Ferrari F40.
I'm going to go buy myself a Pontiac Fiero then, so I can brag to everyone that I have an exotic car.
Get a grip, mid-engine placement ALONE does NOT make a car an exotic! Front-engine placement ALONE does NOT exclude a car from being an exotic!
The LFA has an F1-derived V10 engine that revs to 9000 RPM. Please tell me, HOW many production V10 engines on the market today can rev to 9000 RPM? The LFA has an F1-derived sequential manual transmission, the same sort of transmissions used in Formula 1 today. Like an F1 car, the LFA has carbon brakes. Like an F1 car, it is made almost entirely of carbon fiber. Like an F1 car today, the transmission is mounted in the rear, and the radiators are at the rear. Like an F1 car, the LFA has a large rear diffuser, and an specially-shaped underbody for aerodynamics and for efficient airflow being guided to the diffuser.
Fact is, the LFA has a lot of similarities to F1 cars, and really has almost nothing to do with the Supra, other than the fact that it is front engine and has 4 wheels.
You're also wrong about Gordon Murray. He benchmarked the NSX only for it's handling and balance. Murray thought that the NSX's V6 engine was too weak. He actually asked Honda to build him a V10 or V12 engine for the Mclaren F1, but Honda refused repeatedly (in famous stubborn Honda fashion) and instead BMW built Mclaren a V12.
You consider a mid-engine V6 car an "exotic" but to you, a front-engine, rear transmission, rear radiator, carbon fiber with carbon brakes exotic supercar is not "exotic"?
By your logic, the Toyota MR-2 was an exotic just because it was mid-engine
.It really does sound like you are simply bitter and hating on the LFA just because you can't afford it
.The LFA is going to be, by far, the most significant performance car to ever come from Japan. It will be the FIRST exotic supercar from Japan, and the highest-performing car from Japan ever made.
I can certainly imagine that must make a lot of NSX and GT-R fans very bitter due to:
1.) The fact that most of them will be nowhere close to being able to afford an LFA
2.) The fact that the LFA will blow away the NSX and beat the GTR performance-wise.
Please name me ALL the cars currently that come with a V10. There are only a handful of production V10 cars in the world today. Also FYI, BMW is moving AWAY from V10 engines for their M cars, so in the future V10 cars will be even MORE rare!
Not ALL Ferraris are considered exotic either. Old V6 Ferraris are not considered exotic.
The performance of the NSX thought did not come close to supercars of the time like the Porsche 959 or Ferrari F40.
I'm going to go buy myself a Pontiac Fiero then, so I can brag to everyone that I have an exotic car
. Get a grip, mid-engine placement ALONE does NOT make a car an exotic! Front-engine placement ALONE does NOT exclude a car from being an exotic!
The LFA has an F1-derived V10 engine that revs to 9000 RPM. Please tell me, HOW many production V10 engines on the market today can rev to 9000 RPM? The LFA has an F1-derived sequential manual transmission, the same sort of transmissions used in Formula 1 today. Like an F1 car, the LFA has carbon brakes. Like an F1 car, it is made almost entirely of carbon fiber. Like an F1 car today, the transmission is mounted in the rear, and the radiators are at the rear. Like an F1 car, the LFA has a large rear diffuser, and an specially-shaped underbody for aerodynamics and for efficient airflow being guided to the diffuser.
Fact is, the LFA has a lot of similarities to F1 cars, and really has almost nothing to do with the Supra, other than the fact that it is front engine and has 4 wheels.
You're also wrong about Gordon Murray. He benchmarked the NSX only for it's handling and balance. Murray thought that the NSX's V6 engine was too weak. He actually asked Honda to build him a V10 or V12 engine for the Mclaren F1, but Honda refused repeatedly (in famous stubborn Honda fashion) and instead BMW built Mclaren a V12.
? I'll be fine
It is unfortunate that you had to go out of your way for some reason to single out and take a shot at the NSX and make some ridiculous statement that the NSX was no exotic or super car but the LFA definitely is because even though I do like the LFA I can see where some would think I was putting the LFA down comparing it to the NSX with the whole exotic and supercar subject. That is not the case and again I really do like the LFA so far and give Lexus props, I just think it is way overpriced for what it is. If you said you consider both the NSX and LFA exotics or supercars or were up in the air about them and did not go out of your way to put the NSX down to put the LFA on a pedestal then it would be different.
If we are making assumptions about people and how they feel with the whole I am for some reason bitter because I feel the LFA is way overpriced and I as well as 99.99% of the public cannot afford it then when maybe you are a little threatened and bitter the NSX is such a huge significant sports car to come out of Japan considered by many to be an exotic or super car and it was made by dreaded Honda/Acura and not Toyota/Lexus and the NSX is going to be brought up several times when talking about the LFA. You seemed to try to find every opportunity to put down the NSX and downplay its significance and merits especially to glorify and praise up the LFA kind of like the whole always criticizing Acura/Honda and praising Toyota/Lexus.
Corvette is front engined with a rear mounted transmission, ZR1 has carbon fiber panels and carbon ceramic brakes, I still don't consider it exotic or more exotic then a NSX even if it gets more carbon fiber and rear radiators.
I never once said just because a car is mid engined it is automatically an exotic, a MR2 may have an exotic engine layout but there is more to being an exotic then just having the engine in the rear. I never considered or said a MR2 or Fiero as an exotic, they do feature a rare engine layout but they are more or less common inexpensive affordable exotic "impressions". The Fiero was absolutely awful and a big failure and mistake, the MR2 was a great car for what it was, neither benchmarked exotics or supercars nor were compared to them or could perform anywhere close to them or had cutting edge technology or exotic looks. The NSX was nothing like those cars except sharing a basic engine layout.
Just like engine layout does not automatically qualify a car as an exotic, number of cylinders does not either. Sure a v6 may not seem exotic and was more common but the all aluminum v6 in the NSX was an exotic V6 and far from your average v6 with titanium connecting rods, Vtec, high 8000rpm redline, and put out much more power then the average v6 which was making maybe 160-180hp at the time, 200-210 was very impressive and in higher end vehicles, the NSX put out 270hp at first which was groundbreaking. In 95 it had electronic throttle control which was another first in the US. The very fact the V6 outperformed cars like Ferrari 348s with bigger engines that made more power is a testament to its design and how different it was from your average v6.
I am sure the LFA will be the quickest and highest performing sports car to come out of Japan if it beats the Nissan R390 and GTR V spec and one of the most desirable but it will not be the most significant performance car or be as big a deal as the NSX or Datsun 240Z. They may not be nearly as quick or expensive but they were so groundbreaking when they were released and a huge deal and I seriously doubt the LFA will have their legacy or impact.
V10 engined vehicles or v10 optioned vehicles to name a few off the top of my head in the last few years
Dodge Viper
Dodge Ram
Ford F250-F350
Ford Excursion
Ford Super Duty
Ford E-350 Econoline Van
BMW M5,
BMW M6,
Audi R8,
Audi S8,
Audi S6 and RS6,
Lamborghini Gallardo,
Porsche Carrera GT,
Volkswagen Phaeton(turbo diesel),
Volkswagen Toureg(turbo diesel).
I would say a decent amount of cars and trucks with v10 engines and not just a handful, most with those v10s were/are not considered supercars or exotics or more exotic then a v6 NSX. Formula 1 uses v8s now, no longer v10s.
No other car could really match the performance of a Porsche 959 or F40 at the time, does that mean those two were the only two exotics or supercars because nothing could really touch them performance wise?
You can rattle off a bunch of high end features, technology, and firsts for the LFA all you want, I can do the exact same thing with when the NSX debuted and all its firsts and unique exotic F1/racebred technology. I am not going to put the LFA down, it will be amazing just like the NSX was and still is.
Um, I am not wrong about Gordon Murray benchmarking the NSX
You even proved me right by saying he benchmarked the NSX in the handling and balance which are two of the most important criteria in a sports car. He also benchmarked the ride quality in the NSX. Murray said after driving the NSX he immediately dropped benchmarking Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche as benchmarks and chose the NSX. Of course he needed a larger more powerful engine for a million dollar super car designed to beat all supercars with one of the highest top speeds. Murray bought and owned a NSX himself. Gordon was always a fan of Honda engines and was so impressed with the NSX v6 he asked Honda to build him a v10 or v12. Honda refusing to build the engine probably had more to do with it costing too much money, too much R&D to design a brand new high performance engine, and not wanting to build a higher performing engine for a possible competitor to their own new NSX, not Honda just being stubborn. Kind of like how Toyota does not let other automakers like Lotus use its highest performing highest technology Lexus engines. Murray bought and owned a NSX himself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I can certainly imagine that must make a lot of NSX and GT-R fans very bitter due to:
1.) The fact that most of them will be nowhere close to being able to afford an LFA
2.) The fact that the LFA will blow away the NSX and beat the GTR performance-wise.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, your going out of your way to insult NSX and GTR fans and pretty much 99.9% of the public because most can't afford a 250K+ sports car. Are you getting a LFA or have quarter million dollar cars sitting in your driveway? I could care less if I or most of the world can't afford the LFA at 130K or 350K, does not make me bitter at all. I love and respect the Veyron, McLaren F1, Carrera GT, DBS, 959, F40 despite their super high price tags that I and most could never afford. I seriously hope the LFA can beat the NSX that came out in what 1991 with only small boosts in performance over its lifetime, why would I or any NSX fan even expect a brand new sports car with over 500hp to not be able to outperform by a large margin a almost 20 year old sports car with 270-290hp?
10-15-09 | 11:40 PM
#2293
ok guys... i dont want to interrupt your arguments ... but ... i thought this was a LFA UPDATE thread... not nsx - vs- lfa or definition of what an exotic is thread. ....
... just thinking aloud
on that note... i do hope they do some sort of live web broadcast ... hopefully in HD!!
... just thinking aloud
on that note... i do hope they do some sort of live web broadcast ... hopefully in HD!!
10-15-09 | 11:53 PM
#2295
Guest
Posts: n/a
Am I supposed to be take you judging and putting down people's credibility here seriously? I'll be fine
It is unfortunate that you had to go out of your way for some reason to single out and take a shot at the NSX and make some ridiculous statement that the NSX was no exotic or super car but the LFA definitely is because even though I do like the LFA I can see where some would think I was putting the LFA down comparing it to the NSX with the whole exotic and supercar subject. That is not the case and again I really do like the LFA so far and give Lexus props, I just think it is way overpriced for what it is. If you said you consider both the NSX and LFA exotics or supercars or were up in the air about them and did not go out of your way to put the NSX down to put the LFA on a pedestal then it would be different.
If we are making assumptions about people and how they feel with the whole I am for some reason bitter because I feel the LFA is way overpriced and I as well as 99.99% of the public cannot afford it then when maybe you are a little threatened and bitter the NSX is such a huge significant sports car to come out of Japan considered by many to be an exotic or super car and it was made by dreaded Honda/Acura and not Toyota/Lexus and the NSX is going to be brought up several times when talking about the LFA. You seemed to try to find every opportunity to put down the NSX and downplay its significance and merits especially to glorify and praise up the LFA kind of like the whole always criticizing Acura/Honda and praising Toyota/Lexus.
Corvette is front engined with a rear mounted transmission, ZR1 has carbon fiber panels and carbon ceramic brakes, I still don't consider it exotic or more exotic then a NSX even if it gets more carbon fiber and rear radiators.
I never once said just because a car is mid engined it is automatically an exotic, a MR2 may have an exotic engine layout but there is more to being an exotic then just having the engine in the rear. I never considered or said a MR2 or Fiero as an exotic, they do feature a rare engine layout but they are more or less common inexpensive affordable exotic "impressions". The Fiero was absolutely awful and a big failure and mistake, the MR2 was a great car for what it was, neither benchmarked exotics or supercars nor were compared to them or could perform anywhere close to them or had cutting edge technology or exotic looks. The NSX was nothing like those cars except sharing a basic engine layout.
Just like engine layout does not automatically qualify a car as an exotic, number of cylinders does not either. Sure a v6 may not seem exotic and was more common but the all aluminum v6 in the NSX was an exotic V6 and far from your average v6 with titanium connecting rods, Vtec, high 8000rpm redline, and put out much more power then the average v6 which was making maybe 160-180hp at the time, 200-210 was very impressive and in higher end vehicles, the NSX put out 270hp at first which was groundbreaking. In 95 it had electronic throttle control which was another first in the US. The very fact the V6 outperformed cars like Ferrari 348s with bigger engines that made more power is a testament to its design and how different it was from your average v6.
I am sure the LFA will be the quickest and highest performing sports car to come out of Japan if it beats the Nissan R390 and GTR V spec and one of the most desirable but it will not be the most significant performance car or be as big a deal as the NSX or Datsun 240Z. They may not be nearly as quick or expensive but they were so groundbreaking when they were released and a huge deal and I seriously doubt the LFA will have their legacy or impact.
V10 engined vehicles or v10 optioned vehicles to name a few off the top of my head in the last few years
Dodge Viper
Dodge Ram
Ford F250-F350
Ford Excursion
Ford Super Duty
Ford E-350 Econoline Van
BMW M5,
BMW M6,
Audi R8,
Audi S8,
Audi S6 and RS6,
Lamborghini Gallardo,
Porsche Carrera GT,
Volkswagen Phaeton(turbo diesel),
Volkswagen Toureg(turbo diesel).
I would say a decent amount of cars and trucks with v10 engines and not just a handful, most with those v10s were/are not considered supercars or exotics or more exotic then a v6 NSX. Formula 1 uses v8s now, no longer v10s.
No other car could really match the performance of a Porsche 959 or F40 at the time, does that mean those two were the only two exotics or supercars because nothing could really touch them performance wise?
You can rattle off a bunch of high end features, technology, and firsts for the LFA all you want, I can do the exact same thing with when the NSX debuted and all its firsts and unique exotic F1/racebred technology. I am not going to put the LFA down, it will be amazing just like the NSX was and still is.
Um, I am not wrong about Gordon Murray benchmarking the NSX You even proved me right by saying he benchmarked the NSX in the handling and balance which are two of the most important criteria in a sports car. He also benchmarked the ride quality in the NSX. Murray said after driving the NSX he immediately dropped benchmarking Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche as benchmarks and chose the NSX. Of course he needed a larger more powerful engine for a million dollar super car designed to beat all supercars with one of the highest top speeds. Murray bought and owned a NSX himself. Gordon was always a fan of Honda engines and was so impressed with the NSX v6 he asked Honda to build him a v10 or v12. Honda refusing to build the engine probably had more to do with it costing too much money, too much R&D to design a brand new high performance engine, and not wanting to build a higher performing engine for a possible competitor to their own new NSX, not Honda just being stubborn. Kind of like how Toyota does not let other automakers like Lotus use its highest performing highest technology Lexus engines. Murray bought and owned a NSX himself.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I can certainly imagine that must make a lot of NSX and GT-R fans very bitter due to:
1.) The fact that most of them will be nowhere close to being able to afford an LFA
2.) The fact that the LFA will blow away the NSX and beat the GTR performance-wise.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, your going out of your way to insult NSX and GTR fans and pretty much 99.9% of the public because most can't afford a 250K+ sports car. Are you getting a LFA or have quarter million dollar cars sitting in your driveway? I could care less if I or most of the world can't afford the LFA at 130K or 350K, does not make me bitter at all. I love and respect the Veyron, McLaren F1, Carrera GT, DBS, 959, F40 despite their super high price tags that I and most could never afford. I seriously hope the LFA can beat the NSX that came out in what 1991 with only small boosts in performance over its lifetime, why would I or any NSX fan even expect a brand new sports car with over 500hp to not be able to outperform by a large margin a almost 20 year old sports car with 270-290hp?
? I'll be fineIt is unfortunate that you had to go out of your way for some reason to single out and take a shot at the NSX and make some ridiculous statement that the NSX was no exotic or super car but the LFA definitely is because even though I do like the LFA I can see where some would think I was putting the LFA down comparing it to the NSX with the whole exotic and supercar subject. That is not the case and again I really do like the LFA so far and give Lexus props, I just think it is way overpriced for what it is. If you said you consider both the NSX and LFA exotics or supercars or were up in the air about them and did not go out of your way to put the NSX down to put the LFA on a pedestal then it would be different.
If we are making assumptions about people and how they feel with the whole I am for some reason bitter because I feel the LFA is way overpriced and I as well as 99.99% of the public cannot afford it then when maybe you are a little threatened and bitter the NSX is such a huge significant sports car to come out of Japan considered by many to be an exotic or super car and it was made by dreaded Honda/Acura and not Toyota/Lexus and the NSX is going to be brought up several times when talking about the LFA. You seemed to try to find every opportunity to put down the NSX and downplay its significance and merits especially to glorify and praise up the LFA kind of like the whole always criticizing Acura/Honda and praising Toyota/Lexus.
Corvette is front engined with a rear mounted transmission, ZR1 has carbon fiber panels and carbon ceramic brakes, I still don't consider it exotic or more exotic then a NSX even if it gets more carbon fiber and rear radiators.
I never once said just because a car is mid engined it is automatically an exotic, a MR2 may have an exotic engine layout but there is more to being an exotic then just having the engine in the rear. I never considered or said a MR2 or Fiero as an exotic, they do feature a rare engine layout but they are more or less common inexpensive affordable exotic "impressions". The Fiero was absolutely awful and a big failure and mistake, the MR2 was a great car for what it was, neither benchmarked exotics or supercars nor were compared to them or could perform anywhere close to them or had cutting edge technology or exotic looks. The NSX was nothing like those cars except sharing a basic engine layout.
Just like engine layout does not automatically qualify a car as an exotic, number of cylinders does not either. Sure a v6 may not seem exotic and was more common but the all aluminum v6 in the NSX was an exotic V6 and far from your average v6 with titanium connecting rods, Vtec, high 8000rpm redline, and put out much more power then the average v6 which was making maybe 160-180hp at the time, 200-210 was very impressive and in higher end vehicles, the NSX put out 270hp at first which was groundbreaking. In 95 it had electronic throttle control which was another first in the US. The very fact the V6 outperformed cars like Ferrari 348s with bigger engines that made more power is a testament to its design and how different it was from your average v6.
I am sure the LFA will be the quickest and highest performing sports car to come out of Japan if it beats the Nissan R390 and GTR V spec and one of the most desirable but it will not be the most significant performance car or be as big a deal as the NSX or Datsun 240Z. They may not be nearly as quick or expensive but they were so groundbreaking when they were released and a huge deal and I seriously doubt the LFA will have their legacy or impact.
V10 engined vehicles or v10 optioned vehicles to name a few off the top of my head in the last few years
Dodge Viper
Dodge Ram
Ford F250-F350
Ford Excursion
Ford Super Duty
Ford E-350 Econoline Van
BMW M5,
BMW M6,
Audi R8,
Audi S8,
Audi S6 and RS6,
Lamborghini Gallardo,
Porsche Carrera GT,
Volkswagen Phaeton(turbo diesel),
Volkswagen Toureg(turbo diesel).
I would say a decent amount of cars and trucks with v10 engines and not just a handful, most with those v10s were/are not considered supercars or exotics or more exotic then a v6 NSX. Formula 1 uses v8s now, no longer v10s.
No other car could really match the performance of a Porsche 959 or F40 at the time, does that mean those two were the only two exotics or supercars because nothing could really touch them performance wise?
You can rattle off a bunch of high end features, technology, and firsts for the LFA all you want, I can do the exact same thing with when the NSX debuted and all its firsts and unique exotic F1/racebred technology. I am not going to put the LFA down, it will be amazing just like the NSX was and still is.
Um, I am not wrong about Gordon Murray benchmarking the NSX
You even proved me right by saying he benchmarked the NSX in the handling and balance which are two of the most important criteria in a sports car. He also benchmarked the ride quality in the NSX. Murray said after driving the NSX he immediately dropped benchmarking Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche as benchmarks and chose the NSX. Of course he needed a larger more powerful engine for a million dollar super car designed to beat all supercars with one of the highest top speeds. Murray bought and owned a NSX himself. Gordon was always a fan of Honda engines and was so impressed with the NSX v6 he asked Honda to build him a v10 or v12. Honda refusing to build the engine probably had more to do with it costing too much money, too much R&D to design a brand new high performance engine, and not wanting to build a higher performing engine for a possible competitor to their own new NSX, not Honda just being stubborn. Kind of like how Toyota does not let other automakers like Lotus use its highest performing highest technology Lexus engines. Murray bought and owned a NSX himself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I can certainly imagine that must make a lot of NSX and GT-R fans very bitter due to:
1.) The fact that most of them will be nowhere close to being able to afford an LFA
2.) The fact that the LFA will blow away the NSX and beat the GTR performance-wise.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, your going out of your way to insult NSX and GTR fans and pretty much 99.9% of the public because most can't afford a 250K+ sports car. Are you getting a LFA or have quarter million dollar cars sitting in your driveway? I could care less if I or most of the world can't afford the LFA at 130K or 350K, does not make me bitter at all. I love and respect the Veyron, McLaren F1, Carrera GT, DBS, 959, F40 despite their super high price tags that I and most could never afford. I seriously hope the LFA can beat the NSX that came out in what 1991 with only small boosts in performance over its lifetime, why would I or any NSX fan even expect a brand new sports car with over 500hp to not be able to outperform by a large margin a almost 20 year old sports car with 270-290hp?
