Official LF-A(II) thread (Will debut at Tokyo Auto Show, Lexus details Oct 20th, 8pm)
11-18-07, 09:04 AM
#826
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I believe the performance of the Nissan GT-R and the fact that it is priced around $70k has a lot to do with why Lexus may be having trouble with the LF-A.
Is the LF-A too heavy? Too nose heavy [V-10]?
Is it not fast enough around the 'Ring?
Does it need a 4 wheel drive set up to get the most out of its power [like the GT-R and the proposed NSX successor]?
Is it coming out too expensive ?
Is a 2 seater LF-A [when the GT-R and the planned NSX successor are 2+2]giving Lexus second thoughts about the entire set up?
Are the bits about carbon fiber instead of aluminum etc. just excuses to rethink the whole Exotic Car concept?
Is the cool reception to the IS-F by almost every car magazine making them have second thoughts?
Have the bean counters at Toyota prevailed, yet again?
Is the LF-A too heavy? Too nose heavy [V-10]?
Is it not fast enough around the 'Ring?
Does it need a 4 wheel drive set up to get the most out of its power [like the GT-R and the proposed NSX successor]?
Is it coming out too expensive ?
Is a 2 seater LF-A [when the GT-R and the planned NSX successor are 2+2]giving Lexus second thoughts about the entire set up?
Are the bits about carbon fiber instead of aluminum etc. just excuses to rethink the whole Exotic Car concept?
Is the cool reception to the IS-F by almost every car magazine making them have second thoughts?
Have the bean counters at Toyota prevailed, yet again?
11-18-07, 12:29 PM
#827
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I believe the performance of the Nissan GT-R and the fact that it is priced around $70k has a lot to do with why Lexus may be having trouble with the LF-A.
Is the LF-A too heavy? Too nose heavy [V-10]? No, the engine is front mid mounted
Is it not fast enough around the 'Ring? No one knows, the reportedly never run the whole ring at full speed, rather in sections an then later compile so that no one really knows what it can do.
Does it need a 4 wheel drive set up to get the most out of its power [like the GT-R and the proposed NSX successor]? Purest form of a sports car is RWD, awd is an advantage at launch and in inclement weather, not much anywhere esle...unless you are trying to take the driver out of the equation
Is it coming out too expensive ? Define "too expensive"? An Exotic motor in a rare, fast car .... Ferrari performance at a Porsche price point...Lexus probably isn't going to try and sell too many of these anyway
Is a 2 seater LF-A [when the GT-R and the planned NSX successor are 2+2]giving Lexus second thoughts about the entire set up? Seriously........why should it?
Are the bits about carbon fiber instead of aluminum etc. just excuses to rethink the whole Exotic Car concept? No....It's so that they can meet the lofty targets they set
Is the cool reception to the IS-F by almost every car magazine making them have second thoughts? Two different cars, two different categories.....The IS-F is as good as it was meant to be. The LF-A will be better
Have the bean counters at Toyota prevailed, yet again? No, Toyota/Lexus seriously has a shortage of engineers, and they have other issues to deal with before they give priority to a car that is a showpiece for the company and not much more
Is the LF-A too heavy? Too nose heavy [V-10]? No, the engine is front mid mounted
Is it not fast enough around the 'Ring? No one knows, the reportedly never run the whole ring at full speed, rather in sections an then later compile so that no one really knows what it can do.
Does it need a 4 wheel drive set up to get the most out of its power [like the GT-R and the proposed NSX successor]? Purest form of a sports car is RWD, awd is an advantage at launch and in inclement weather, not much anywhere esle...unless you are trying to take the driver out of the equation
Is it coming out too expensive ? Define "too expensive"? An Exotic motor in a rare, fast car .... Ferrari performance at a Porsche price point...Lexus probably isn't going to try and sell too many of these anyway
Is a 2 seater LF-A [when the GT-R and the planned NSX successor are 2+2]giving Lexus second thoughts about the entire set up? Seriously........why should it?
Are the bits about carbon fiber instead of aluminum etc. just excuses to rethink the whole Exotic Car concept? No....It's so that they can meet the lofty targets they set
Is the cool reception to the IS-F by almost every car magazine making them have second thoughts? Two different cars, two different categories.....The IS-F is as good as it was meant to be. The LF-A will be better
Have the bean counters at Toyota prevailed, yet again?
No, Toyota/Lexus seriously has a shortage of engineers, and they have other issues to deal with before they give priority to a car that is a showpiece for the company and not much more
11-18-07, 12:32 PM
#828
Interesting discussion, maybe there is a bit of jostling about as far as the proposed NSX and premiered GT-R, although I do think the NSX is more of a direct competitor. And the IS-F has been received pretty well by the magazines by my reckoning, disproving the stereotype that Lexus can't do sporty. However as is typical Lexus is a heavy target for nitpicking and criticism as the standard is typically set high.
11-18-07, 01:24 PM
#829
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I believe the performance of the Nissan GT-R and the fact that it is priced around $70k has a lot to do with why Lexus may be having trouble with the LF-A.
Is the LF-A too heavy? Too nose heavy [V-10]?
Is it not fast enough around the 'Ring?
Does it need a 4 wheel drive set up to get the most out of its power [like the GT-R and the proposed NSX successor]?
Is it coming out too expensive ?
Is a 2 seater LF-A [when the GT-R and the planned NSX successor are 2+2]giving Lexus second thoughts about the entire set up?
Are the bits about carbon fiber instead of aluminum etc. just excuses to rethink the whole Exotic Car concept?
Is the cool reception to the IS-F by almost every car magazine making them have second thoughts?
Have the bean counters at Toyota prevailed, yet again?
Is the LF-A too heavy? Too nose heavy [V-10]?
Is it not fast enough around the 'Ring?
Does it need a 4 wheel drive set up to get the most out of its power [like the GT-R and the proposed NSX successor]?
Is it coming out too expensive ?
Is a 2 seater LF-A [when the GT-R and the planned NSX successor are 2+2]giving Lexus second thoughts about the entire set up?
Are the bits about carbon fiber instead of aluminum etc. just excuses to rethink the whole Exotic Car concept?
Is the cool reception to the IS-F by almost every car magazine making them have second thoughts?
Have the bean counters at Toyota prevailed, yet again?
You're making a lot of silly assumptions without knowing the facts. And what proof do you have the IS-F has recieved a "cool" reception? Looking at pre-orders in Japan, the entire 2008 IS-F allocation for Japan is sold out and the car's not even on sale yet. I'd say that's a pretty hot reception.
FYI, the Enzo has a top speed of 218 mph, which is what the rumour says Toyota is aiming for with the LF-A's top speed.
Some of us think that Toyota is benchmarking the 911 Turbo with the LF-A, but don't be surprised or shocked if Toyota is in fact benchmarking the Enzo in terms of performance. You heard it here first.
11-18-07, 02:46 PM
#830
Lexus Test Driver
No, it's not. The LF-A has a perfect 50/50 weight distribution with front mid-mounted engine and rear-mounted transmission and rear-mounted radiators.
You're making a lot of silly assumptions without knowing the facts. And what proof do you have the IS-F has recieved a "cool" reception? Looking at pre-orders in Japan, the entire 2008 IS-F allocation for Japan is sold out and the car's not even on sale yet. I'd say that's a pretty hot reception.
FYI, the Enzo has a top speed of 218 mph, which is what the rumour says Toyota is aiming for with the LF-A's top speed.
Some of us think that Toyota is benchmarking the 911 Turbo with the LF-A, but don't be surprised or shocked if Toyota is in fact benchmarking the Enzo in terms of performance. You heard it here first.
You're making a lot of silly assumptions without knowing the facts. And what proof do you have the IS-F has recieved a "cool" reception? Looking at pre-orders in Japan, the entire 2008 IS-F allocation for Japan is sold out and the car's not even on sale yet. I'd say that's a pretty hot reception.
FYI, the Enzo has a top speed of 218 mph, which is what the rumour says Toyota is aiming for with the LF-A's top speed.
Some of us think that Toyota is benchmarking the 911 Turbo with the LF-A, but don't be surprised or shocked if Toyota is in fact benchmarking the Enzo in terms of performance. You heard it here first.
Last edited by JessePS; 11-18-07 at 03:04 PM.
11-18-07, 02:53 PM
#831
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i know you guys really want to use whatever data you can find to prove lexus supremacy, but i think the is-f presales data in japan should be excluded on the basis that the "target" was unrealistically low.
also, mr f1, AWD can be a huge advantage -even in the dry. also, you could say a pure sports car is RWD but then you'd also have to agree that (1) the pure sports car is also stick and (2) Lexus isn't going to build a pure sports car. exotic? yes. GT? Yes. Pure sports car? No....and while the definition of a pure sports car may be debatable.. I very highly doubt the LF-A will fit into most people's categories of it... besides those on clublexus that is.
now dont get me wrong- ima gt-r fan and ill be the first to say its not a pure sports car
so i'm not knocking the LF-A, but at the end of the day you gotta call a spade a spade
also, mr f1, AWD can be a huge advantage -even in the dry. also, you could say a pure sports car is RWD but then you'd also have to agree that (1) the pure sports car is also stick and (2) Lexus isn't going to build a pure sports car. exotic? yes. GT? Yes. Pure sports car? No....and while the definition of a pure sports car may be debatable.. I very highly doubt the LF-A will fit into most people's categories of it... besides those on clublexus that is.
now dont get me wrong- ima gt-r fan and ill be the first to say its not a pure sports car
so i'm not knocking the LF-A, but at the end of the day you gotta call a spade a spade
11-18-07, 03:17 PM
#832
I agree, by the traditional definitions of sports car (MT etc.) the LF-A will not necessarily fit into those slots. But having a Lexus exotic is something a lot of people are eagerly awaiting.
The IS-F has a promising start in Japan, we'll see what happens next. But naturally, the IS-F is in a different category than the LF-A.
The IS-F has a promising start in Japan, we'll see what happens next. But naturally, the IS-F is in a different category than the LF-A.
11-18-07, 05:12 PM
#833
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Understand that all things being equal, if ALL people cared about was perforamance, then, everyone would drive an EVO and mod it, or WRX STi or mod it. Or a 335 or mod it.
Lets jump and say, value wise, the Z06 and GT-R are as good as it gets.
Well guess what, as good as they are and even though they might meet or BEAT exotics or cars costing twice as much...
People STILL buy these cars costing 2-4 times as much.
911 Turbo
Aston Martins
Ferraris
Lambos
etc etc
There is no doubt in my mind a GT-R might be able to hang with these cars, maybe beat these cars but it seriously would not even be considered.
Thus the LF-A, while maybe performing on par than the GT-R. Hell, lets say it performs a tick here and there worse;
it will still sell, it won't be cross-shopped. When we get past the performance part, we are talking about a 70k Nissan with a 150k (possibly) Lexus.
Can you imagine the difference in buyers and the dealership experience?
Another thing, do people realize that the GT-R is non-existent to 99% of the public. They know what a Nissan "Z" is but have no idea what a GT-R is. The vast majority of people in the USA that know what a GT-R is are serious gearheads (like us) or 12 year old kids who cannot begin to get a license let alone buy this car.
Lets jump and say, value wise, the Z06 and GT-R are as good as it gets.
Well guess what, as good as they are and even though they might meet or BEAT exotics or cars costing twice as much...
People STILL buy these cars costing 2-4 times as much.
911 Turbo
Aston Martins
Ferraris
Lambos
etc etc
There is no doubt in my mind a GT-R might be able to hang with these cars, maybe beat these cars but it seriously would not even be considered.
Thus the LF-A, while maybe performing on par than the GT-R. Hell, lets say it performs a tick here and there worse;
it will still sell, it won't be cross-shopped. When we get past the performance part, we are talking about a 70k Nissan with a 150k (possibly) Lexus.
Can you imagine the difference in buyers and the dealership experience?
Another thing, do people realize that the GT-R is non-existent to 99% of the public. They know what a Nissan "Z" is but have no idea what a GT-R is. The vast majority of people in the USA that know what a GT-R is are serious gearheads (like us) or 12 year old kids who cannot begin to get a license let alone buy this car.
11-18-07, 06:23 PM
#834
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i know you guys really want to use whatever data you can find to prove lexus supremacy, but i think the is-f presales data in japan should be excluded on the basis that the "target" was unrealistically low.
also, mr f1, AWD can be a huge advantage -even in the dry. also, you could say a pure sports car is RWD but then you'd also have to agree that (1) the pure sports car is also stick and (2) Lexus isn't going to build a pure sports car. exotic? yes. GT? Yes. Pure sports car? No....and while the definition of a pure sports car may be debatable.. I very highly doubt the LF-A will fit into most people's categories of it... besides those on clublexus that is.
now dont get me wrong- ima gt-r fan and ill be the first to say its not a pure sports car
so i'm not knocking the LF-A, but at the end of the day you gotta call a spade a spade
also, mr f1, AWD can be a huge advantage -even in the dry. also, you could say a pure sports car is RWD but then you'd also have to agree that (1) the pure sports car is also stick and (2) Lexus isn't going to build a pure sports car. exotic? yes. GT? Yes. Pure sports car? No....and while the definition of a pure sports car may be debatable.. I very highly doubt the LF-A will fit into most people's categories of it... besides those on clublexus that is.
now dont get me wrong- ima gt-r fan and ill be the first to say its not a pure sports car
so i'm not knocking the LF-A, but at the end of the day you gotta call a spade a spade
As for the debate on manual transmission, a sequential will always shift faster than you can. Ask Kimi or Micheal
p.s. its MR_F1 not mr.F1 ....
11-18-07, 09:13 PM
#837
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The LF-A will definitely have F1 technology in it. Just as the Enzo shows Ferrari's F1 know-how the LF-A will showcase Toyota's F1 know-how.
That is the reason I believe Toyota is aiming above the GT-R or 911T.
Tekknikal, you could argue the target was low but consider that Lexus is a new brand in Japan and has no performance credentials. Fact is Toyota had no idea how buyers in Japan would accept the IS-F. Toyota doesn't know how the IS-F will be accepted in other markets either. The target market for the IS-F is totally different than an LS buyer. With the IS-F Lexus is going after buyers that are mostly new to the brand. Toyota is taking a cautious approach with production numbers.
I don't consider the LF-A a "pure" sports car and I think most CL members don't either. I agree that the GT-R is also not a pure sports car.
That is the reason I believe Toyota is aiming above the GT-R or 911T.
Tekknikal, you could argue the target was low but consider that Lexus is a new brand in Japan and has no performance credentials. Fact is Toyota had no idea how buyers in Japan would accept the IS-F. Toyota doesn't know how the IS-F will be accepted in other markets either. The target market for the IS-F is totally different than an LS buyer. With the IS-F Lexus is going after buyers that are mostly new to the brand. Toyota is taking a cautious approach with production numbers.
I don't consider the LF-A a "pure" sports car and I think most CL members don't either. I agree that the GT-R is also not a pure sports car.
11-19-07, 06:39 PM
#838
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11-20-07, 12:26 PM
#840
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If Toyota delays their LFA so much that the Honda's NSX successor is also a choice, then Toyota will lose many buyers to Honda. If Honda is able to produce their on again, off again NSX and bring it to the market no later than the LF-A, which is what it seems likely now, then it would be a surprisingly long gestation for the LFA.