LFA Model (2012)

Lexus LFA- Discussion, Pictures & News (new colors gloss black, blue, yellow)

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Old 08-20-10, 03:33 PM
  #2296  
TF109B
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I still think since its a pre-production unit it could be down on power (evidenced by the dyno at Motortrend) and the production cars won't have such issues. There's no way 560HP (LFA) doesn't pull away from 480HP (GTR) in acceleration cases. That's my conclusion. No matter the drag coefficient being .39 or .31 what is the GTR's? I'm sure it's not much better. And with less HP? No matter the 4wd or not, that's good for acceleration in the first couple of gears, but higher gears? There's something wrong with these LFA's. Other tests show the LFA can hang with the SLS in 100mph+ acceleration. This is bogus and weird to say the least.

here's a scan i picked up off another forum-


notice how good the brakes are. 7.0 seconds from 300kmh to 0. Only the Superleggera and GT2 RS can compete and they both weigh much less (decontented) the only issue is the acceleration; 0-100 4.1? then to 200kmh 12.0? And then even worse to 300kmh 50.6? Something went wrong. Even german fanboy's agree with this.

Last edited by TF109B; 08-20-10 at 03:42 PM.
Old 08-21-10, 01:51 AM
  #2297  
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Maybe Lexus should consider equipping the 'standard' LFA with the revised transmission of the Nürburgring version. Quicker shifts and hopefully better spreading.
Anyway the Goodwood time of 1.24.87 still stands, as well as a great TG laptime of 1.22.8 in the wet. I know Top Gear magazine tested the LFA against the 458, GT3 RS, SLS and Lambo for the september edition which came out this week. They also tested them on the TG track for this test so we should get a dry laptime very soon.
Old 08-21-10, 03:38 AM
  #2298  
encore888
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Interesting details about owners from a pretty positive interview by NY Times' Lawrence Ulrich, who was critical of the LSh but very positive on the latest RXh:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/au...s/22LEXUS.html

$375,000 Lexus LFA: Ferrari Fighter or Exotic Fantasy?
By LAWRENCE ULRIC
MILLVILLE, N.J.

IN the hermetic bubble of a racetrack — where economic reality has no pit pass — the Lexus LFA makes perfect, glorious sense.

As I rocket around New Jersey Motorsports Park, this supercar physically compels me to switch off skepticism, pay heed to the racing line and happily marinate in waves of sensory stimulation: the Formula One shriek of its 552-horsepower V-10, the tightrope balance and technical precision that makes even a Corvette ZR-1 feel like a Tinkertoy.

Hurry, ask me while I’m still in the driver’s seat: is the LFA worth $375,000? Sure, for the rare person who would prefer a supercar from Japan, not Europe.

Ask the same question after I’ve skimmed the latest unemployment figures or calculated the relative fun of, say, a $135,000 Porsche 911 Turbo, and the answer is, what, are you nuts?

Such contradictions make the LFA fodder for one of the year’s most interesting auto debates. Judged purely as an adrenaline-inducing performance tool, the Lexus tops a number of supercars I’ve driven — not just the similiarly priced Lamborghini Murciélago, but also the $1.3 million Bugatti Veyron.

As any car snob will remind you, Lexus is not Bugatti, or even Porsche. Created by Toyota just 20 years ago, Lexus can’t bank on the car-museum prestige or racing pedigree that makes millionaires’ hearts go flutter. And with apologies to Lexus, I have yet to hear anyone describe the LFA as beautiful. Even Lexus hasn’t spent much time strewing flowery adjectives over the styling, whose brute functionality recalls an Asian “Fast and Furious” movie car — albeit one on a billionaire’s budget.

What the LFA can claim is racecar-level thrills in a surprisingly comfortable, street-friendly car, developed in a cost-is-no-object program that lasted a decade. That, and exclusivity: the prototype I drove was the only LFA in the United States at the time. And, starting in December, just 500 copies will be built over two years, with 171 coming to America.

Fifty of the 500 buyers will get a higher-performing Nürburgring edition, whose $445,000 price includes driving lessons — a good idea — and a year’s pass at the famous 12.9-mile German road course for which it’s named.

During the LFA’s vexingly long gestation, Lexus showed a concept in Detroit back in 2005. Four years later, Toyota’s incoming president, Akio Toyoda, proved he wasn’t all about hybrids, racing an LFA prototype with three other drivers in the 24 Hours of Nürburgring. Not surprisingly, Toyota’s bosses soon approved the car for a limited factory run.

The production car is built around a carbon-fiber tub; a 4.8-liter V-10 that blisters the tachometer as it zings to 9,000 r.p.m.; and a center of gravity just 18 inches above the pavement.

Five years into the project, Lexus essentially started over. Realizing the car’s planned aluminum structure wouldn’t meet their performance targets, engineers substituted lighter carbon composite. Toyota — which officials note was started in the 1920s as the Toyoda Automatic Loom Company — had to create a unique loom to weave carbon fiber for the front roof pillars. In tandem with Yamaha engineers, Lexus tuned the engine and exhaust note as if it were a musical instrument, including a dashboard that admits only certain frequencies into the cabin. That might explain the television commercial that shows the LFA shattering not the asphalt but a champagne flute, with a crescendo of its soaring metallic tenor.

Tellingly, that ad doesn’t even mention the LFA by name. As with most “halo cars,” Lexus isn’t really selling the car, but the brand, said Paul Rohovsky, Lexus’s manager for advanced business development.

That halo-car strategy might seem logical for a Ferrari or even a BMW, whose owners obsess over performance and seek bragging rights. But will the typically conservative Lexus buyer appreciate that the brand that produced his cocoonlike LS sedan also makes the LFA? Or might a Lexus or Toyota hybrid fan wonder why Lexus is indulging fantasies with a fuel-thirsty supercar?

Mr. Rohovsky said Lexus fans were similar to the followers of other luxury marques, aspiring to the best a manufacturer can offer. “If we can do this kind of high-tech product, it tells people we can provide similar technology in your everyday car,” he said.

Mr. Rohovsky recalls driving the LFA in Southern California when the beaming owner of a Lexus IS-F sport sedan pulled alongside.

“He rolled down his window and said, ‘That’s what I want, baby,’”
Mr. Rohovsky said. “He looked like the happiest guy in the world.”

Inside the LFA, the halo effect includes a 3.6-second sprint from 0 to 60 miles per hour and a top speed of 202 m.p.h. Plenty of sports cars today, including the Corvette ZR-1, can claim similar numbers, and many cost a fraction of the LFA’s price. Those calculations naturally lead skeptics to dismiss the Lexus as overpriced. But number crunchers often don’t realize that statistics say little about what a car is like to drive — or how it makes an owner feel.

An initial 150 cars set aside for Americans had been spoken for by June, when Lexus allocated 21 more. For those who can’t spell “recession,” a few slots remain open. And Lexus has also eliminated a litmus test that ruffled the feathers of enthusists.

Determined to bar speculators from flipping LFAs for a quick profit, Lexus had initially set up the deals to resemble a lease — albeit one that required a customer to hand over $290,000 in cash up front, with a $93,000 option to own the LFA after 24 months.

After that stipulation gave some prospects cold feet — over issues including owner liquidity and possible entanglements in the event of a death or divorce — Lexus relented, offering customers a choice of buying or financing the car. One catch: if an owner decides to sell within two years, Lexus keeps first option to buy back the LFA at fair market value, but not for more than the original sticker price. Lexus is also vetting buyers, seeking those who will drive their LFAs as a rolling advertisement rather than stash them away in collections.

The day before my test drive, a handful of LFA prospects had been invited to the track here, including some who needed a test drive before answering the $375,000 question. Mr. Rohovsky said that at each of four such events held around the country, at least one prospect stepped from the car and said, “Where do I sign? I’m ready to go.”

So far American buyers are exclusively men, and on average are in their mid-50s. Many have owned a Lexus, and they tend to be entrepreneurial types, along with one sports star whose name Lexus would not divulge.

Nor would Lexus connect me to the Midwest man who, Lexus swears, is leaning toward an LFA painted Passionate Pink, one of 30 available colors. (Mr. Mary Kay, perhaps?)

Mr. Rohovsky did allow that one “fresh green” LFA — a petri-dish shade wild enough for any Lamborghini fan — is headed to — where else? — Miami.

“He told me, ‘I want people to see me coming and going,’” Mr. Rohovsky said.

More than any luxury car maker, Lexus has been stereotyped, sometimes crudely, as the antiperformance brand, the epitome of masterfully built but soporific and soulless cars.
Yet when Lexus does manage to create a car like the IS-F, a wildly fun-to-drive sport sedan, enthusiasts turn the argument around and question why any Lexus buyer would want one.

For those reasons, no matter how loopily unattainable the LFA may be, I’d hate to discourage Lexus from the sort of moon shot that the LFA represents.
Getting out of the driver’s seat, I realized that I may never drive this rare supercar again. But that’s all right.

The LFA — like the Dodge Viper — is the kind of machine that might inspire Lexus or Toyota to inject some spirit into their lineups, or to create sports cars that real people can afford. If that happens, I’ll gladly volunteer to polish Lexus’s halo.
Assuming these numbers are updated:
- Originally 150 LFAs for US, this allocation has been increased by 21 to 171 since then.
- The original 150 were "spoken for" by June, but "a few slots remain open."
- Buying terms changed after some prospective owners were concerned about owner liquidity, marital status, inheritance issues.
- All US buyers male, average in mid-50s, many Lexus owners, most entrepreneurs
- One sports star "whose name Lexus would not divulge"
- One Midwest man is thinking about an LFA in "Passionate Pink"
- One "Fresh Green" LFA headed for Miami

I like the conclusion of his, which is a great justification for why the LFA is such an important "halo" for the brand, and why we all hope its glow is reflected in spirit and in substance with the rest of the line.

Also, to point out, from the in-depth articles--it's true the LFA wasn't designed for looks first, they went with "form follows function", which despite the more academic/pure performance aspect, has created a looker IMO.
Old 08-21-10, 03:55 AM
  #2299  
syzygy
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That article by Lawrence Ulric is extremely well-written
Old 08-21-10, 08:51 AM
  #2300  
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encore, great find! LAWRENCE ULRIC has written a fantastic piece, it points out positives and negatives. He speaks on something I've said tons of times, so glad to see it written

More than any luxury car maker, Lexus has been stereotyped, sometimes crudely, as the antiperformance brand, the epitome of masterfully built but soporific and soulless cars.
Yet when Lexus does manage to create a car like the IS-F, a wildly fun-to-drive sport sedan, enthusiasts turn the argument around and question why any Lexus buyer would want one.
Old 08-21-10, 09:13 AM
  #2301  
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7:38 on the ring, that's really not so impressive.

but i am kind of holding my breath a little. the lfa time on top gear track (wet) was pretty sensational. granted that's not a very long track, but i am a bit confused by the results.

maybe we can wait for more time at the ring.

but overall, definitely not looking good on the lfa recently. sold out in certain regions is one thing (same can be said for japan and few other countries), but the fact that lexus still have bunch of unsold lfa lying around and they miss the biggest market (US), that's definitely a bummer

personally i still wonder about the allocation, why put the extra 21 cars to the US when no one is buying here and other market is so hot? and yes, from the info i gathered, indeed someone has ordered a pink one...
Old 08-21-10, 09:15 AM
  #2302  
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^^^ I agree. The thing is most independent tests rarely match company claimed "Ring" times.

I bet if Scott Priutt had a couple months of practice at the Ring he could do some amazing things there.
Old 08-21-10, 12:13 PM
  #2303  
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I take back what I had been saying before (parts of it I blame on MotorTrend for their stupid analysis).

LFA is NOT tall geared. The LFA gearbox is extremely deceptive since it has an input-shaft gear, which is called "drop gear", it actually aids the gearbox since it is located below the gear cluster and it is short geared.

So overall, LFA DOES have short and optimized gearing. The following proves that:


Look at the LFA overall ratio in every gear:



Compared to the GT2:



You can see LFA is geared short in every gear compared to the GT2 suited to its racing oriented engine and torque so by the looks of it the gearbox is fully optimized and matched well to the engine's high-rpm power. The actual final drive then becomes 4.3:1 through multiplying the two numbers.


So that really brings, like you said, the LFA power output into question. It must be that LFA is not putting down the 560 PS Lexus is claiming it to be rated it. Remember how SportAuto put 510 PS earlier? Before changing it to 560 PS. I wonder if they dyno'ed the LFA and found out it is putting down power that makes it 510 PS at the crank?


So here are two things:

1 - LFA is not putting down the proper power down to the wheels that the rating of 560 PS suggest. Could be tuning issues.

2 - The spoiler results in an extremely high drag coefficient. SportAuto said, it was 3.981 with the spoiler deployed. That adds too much downforce over the rear wheels making the car extremely heavy at high speeds. It is great for stability, but not so great for acceleration. Once it deploys at 80 KM/H, there is no way of retracting it.




Originally Posted by TF109B
I still think since its a pre-production unit it could be down on power (evidenced by the dyno at Motortrend) and the production cars won't have such issues. There's no way 560HP (LFA) doesn't pull away from 480HP (GTR) in acceleration cases. That's my conclusion. No matter the drag coefficient being .39 or .31 what is the GTR's? I'm sure it's not much better. And with less HP? No matter the 4wd or not, that's good for acceleration in the first couple of gears, but higher gears? There's something wrong with these LFA's. Other tests show the LFA can hang with the SLS in 100mph+ acceleration. This is bogus and weird to say the least.

here's a scan i picked up off another forum-
notice how good the brakes are. 7.0 seconds from 300kmh to 0. Only the Superleggera and GT2 RS can compete and they both weigh much less (decontented) the only issue is the acceleration; 0-100 4.1? then to 200kmh 12.0? And then even worse to 300kmh 50.6? Something went wrong. Even german fanboy's agree with this.

Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 08-21-10 at 01:02 PM.
Old 08-21-10, 01:04 PM
  #2304  
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Originally Posted by 05RollaXRS
So here are two things:

1 - LFA is not putting down the proper power down to the wheels that the rating of 560 PS suggest. Could be tuning issues.

2 - The spoiler results in an extremely high drag coefficient. SportAuto said, it was 3.981 with the spoiler deployed. That adds too much downforce over the rear wheels making the car extremely heavy at high speeds. It is great for stability, but not so great for acceleration. Once it deploys at 80 KM/H, there is no way of retracting it.
Or perhaps the red LFA is too new and the engine is not ready for high performance tests.
Old 08-21-10, 01:10 PM
  #2305  
05RollaXRS
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Originally Posted by 07grIS350
Or perhaps the red LFA is too new and the engine is not ready for high performance tests.
That's very true. Most cars start giving their best performance past 8000 miles or so,
Old 08-21-10, 05:25 PM
  #2306  
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I think the pre-production units are limited in some way. I bet lexus did this purposefully, if not then they're getting the final adjustments in place as we speak, perhaps this is why the pre-production units are being provided. What my logic tells me is that the engine is being limited in certain gears or above certain speeds either by Lexus or by drag. I don't think Lexus would purposefully make a car with extra drag. Spending 10 years almost on one car it has to be better than what it's lead off to believe. And 7:38 is about as fast as that test driver can get bar a porsche. Because he's a porsche factory driver. Notice how every car ZR1, GTR, 458, SLS, LFA; all of them around 7:38-7:40 but the Carrera GT he sets a 7:32? Unlikely this guys knows how to fully pilot these other cars as well as he does a Porsche.
Old 08-21-10, 05:32 PM
  #2307  
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I am glad, for a 6 speed, LFA has the most perfect gearing imaginable. The final drive works out to be 4.3:1, which works in harmony with the 9500 rpm and racing inspired torque distribution across the rev range.

The reason for using a "drop ratio gear" was to achieve a lower center of gravity, so it seems.

It is all making sense now since I found out SportAuto measured the drag coefficient at 0.34 without the spoiler raised. Once the spoiler raises at 80 KM/H and over 150 mph, the wind drag increases to a truck-like 0.40, which creates lots of downforce for stability. However, with that much downforce. the car becomes too heavy due to the wind drag and the acceleration suffers over 150 mph.

Lexus needs to put a way to retract the spoiler. I am sure LFA would have run the 0 - 300 KM/H in easily 35 - 38 seconds.


Originally Posted by TF109B
I think the pre-production units are limited in some way. I bet lexus did this purposefully, if not then they're getting the final adjustments in place as we speak, perhaps this is why the pre-production units are being provided. What my logic tells me is that the engine is being limited in certain gears or above certain speeds either by Lexus or by drag. I don't think Lexus would purposefully make a car with extra drag. Spending 10 years almost on one car it has to be better than what it's lead off to believe. And 7:38 is about as fast as that test driver can get bar a porsche. Because he's a porsche factory driver. Notice how every car ZR1, GTR, 458, SLS, LFA; all of them around 7:38-7:40 but the Carrera GT he sets a 7:32? Unlikely this guys knows how to fully pilot these other cars as well as he does a Porsche.

Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 08-21-10 at 05:40 PM.
Old 08-21-10, 06:00 PM
  #2308  
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perhaps the spoiler angle will be changed in the production cars. Like I said, this could be a precautionary thing Lexus has done with the pre-production units. I don't buy into their drag quotes. I assume the wing does it's job, but I don't think Lexus has spent the better part of a decade on the LFA to have it slow down above 200KMH. Even the sport auto's test to that speed was off from what the LFA should have been. 11.3 for AutoZeitung, but 12.0 for them? I think there's more to it. No launch control? Expect 11.1 for 0-200kmh times with it. The launch control option should at least take a tenth off the 0-60, making 3.6 or 3.5 easy. Combine a better launch with the already capable speeds seen in the 200kmh tests and it's not out of the question. Especially this combined with the LFA spec tires it's supposed to receive.
Old 08-21-10, 06:10 PM
  #2309  
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Well, to put things in context, ZR-1 got 11.5 seconds so it was not that LFA was slower to 200 Km/h with 12.0 seconds than most other tests, it was mostly due to lack of a launch control system.

If there were a launch control system, I could easily see 0.3 - 0.5 seconds shaved off since LFA bogs off the line for a bit before blasting towards the redline.

If you look at tachometer videos, LFA's revs never drop below 7300 - 7400 rpm when shifting at 9300 rpm or so. Seems like the gearing is perfect.

Many cars do without tall spoilers. Ferrari 458 Italia is one example that has no spoiler at all so Lexus should allow the driver to retract the spoiler whenever he wants to.

I could easily see LFA hitting a 0 - 300 Km/h in 35 - 38 second region.

Originally Posted by TF109B
perhaps the spoiler angle will be changed in the production cars. Like I said, this could be a precautionary thing Lexus has done with the pre-production units. I don't buy into their drag quotes. I assume the wing does it's job, but I don't think Lexus has spent the better part of a decade on the LFA to have it slow down above 200KMH. Even the sport auto's test to that speed was off from what the LFA should have been. 11.3 for AutoZeitung, but 12.0 for them? I think there's more to it. No launch control? Expect 11.1 for 0-200kmh times with it. The launch control option should at least take a tenth off the 0-60, making 3.6 or 3.5 easy. Combine a better launch with the already capable speeds seen in the 200kmh tests and it's not out of the question. Especially this combined with the LFA spec tires it's supposed to receive.

Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 08-21-10 at 06:16 PM.
Old 08-21-10, 07:06 PM
  #2310  
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I think you can retract the spoiler. Bottom line is we can speculate all we want (and you guys are doing a great job with fact finding and links etc, it is really appreciated) but outside of the usual bias the LFA didn't exactly scorch the Earth.

And should it? I've said it before it simply doesn't have the mettle to be some sort of dominant car. What it provides is distinct Japanese flavor, tech, quality and impeccable construction at a supercar pace.

We shall see in future tests when the actual 2011 model is released.


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