LexusMan77

Please disregard my "aluminum LFA" post. That topic was discussed in this forum that I read back in May, but I went back to check it out and found out that it was just someone's speculation. My mistake.

DeTomaso

I know the Nürburgring edition is old news, however the statement that it would be weight optimised was something i thought to be worth mentioning. Asking 75-100k more for only 10 bhp, 0.05 faster shifting, lighter wheels and a fixed spoiler seems odd. I think i read something about a full carbon transmission tunnel somewhere so there might be more of those adjustments to make it substantially lighter. Anyway they are only planning 50 of those so not a big deal.

05RollaXRS

The AutoCar video has no credibility whatsoever.

- For one why did when the LFA started reeling the SLS AMG back in did the nose suddenly dive and then it feel way back?

- The sound at the beginning was the SLS AMG holding revs for launch control. It is obvious LFA was launched from idle since there was no such sound at all. Why was it not mentioned in the video?

- The LFA screams at 9000 rpm that could be heard from a very far distance. All I could hear was the SLS AMG sound from outside. It is clear the LFA was not being revved up to 9300 rpm where it should be, but was being short shifted at 7000 - 7500 rpm.

Dave600hL

Look guys, all this quibbling about how many tenths it lost to so and so supre car, or how how it was unfairly reported in so and so's comparison is moot really. I could not give a damm if autocars 1km comparison shows the LFA loosing. There is more to a car than just speed, granted it has to perform with the best to be considered a super car and around the track it will do that. 0-60 times don't impress me in the least, nor do the the track times of the car. Why, b/c it will be driven on public roads and there is only so fast you can go.

What impresses me more is that it sounds great, which was something of a bonus, but the fact that it will have the distinct Lexus finish in the luxury department and that it will be(so I have been told) an easy super car to drive in regular traffic. And when I want to put my foot down when entering a tollway or just going to a mountain road to do some curves it will have more than what I or any average Joe can handle.

I don't want to stop you guys from having a discussion , b/c that is what this thread is for, but just remember that most people who are in the market for this car won't put absolute speed over the quarter or to 300km an hour as the deciding factor. If people want that they will inevitably choose another car.

MR_F1

^Pretty much this.

LexFather

In regards to weight it doesn't mean squat at high speeds. The Veyron weighs what 2 tons? Its about brute force and power to push that car through the air.

While not related, notice how BMW is abandoning their high revving V-10a for twin turbo V-8s. AMG simply outpowers them with turbos.

Even if the SLS is faster and cheaper I don't care. I much prefer the LFA. Its quite amazing to me that the mags bashed the SLR but suddenly are in love with the SLS and constantly pit it vs the LFA which isn't really a direct comparison.

I would get it. It literally might add 20-30lbs tops. It is a Lexus

^^ Agreed. I've said it before and not sure why the LFA has some yardstick it must beat, a moving one at that. No one bishes about other brands performance like peope do the LFA.






I agree with you Henry. Though will they give Lexus a fair shake?

05RollaXRS

Correct. Top end acceleration is all about gearing, high rpm horsepower and aerodynamics. Power to weight ratio is most relevant till around 120 - 130 mph or so. Peak torque is even less of a factor past 60 mph.


BMW is not abandoning high-revving engines because it was not the best approach. It was mostly because their cars are becoming heavy pigs (4500 lbs for the new upcoming M5) and they cannot have high-revving cars in such heavy cars since high-revving engines are all about lightness and responsiveness. Not to mention, BMW is trying to cut back costs by making cookie-cutter turbo engines that could be fit in entire line up of the series with different power rating and go green so turbo'ing is their magic formula.

Funny how BMW has not even got a handle yet on building turbo engines since their 335 engines have tons of HPFP, overheating and intercooler issues. Many of them have been lemoned and bought back by BMW and the owners traded in for M3s.


Because SLS AMG is a much more "handling machine" with a rear-bias weight distribution. SLR AMG was nose-heavy and understeered like crazy. I recently read a interview of the chief engineer of SLR AMG in Evo magazine and he praised how AMG did it right with the SLS AMG. Much lighter, N/A, more focused on handling. He claimed he wanted SLR AMG to be N/A, but Mercedes kept forcing him to put supercharger on the engine, which added too much weight to the car.


AutoCar's credibility was shot in my eyes years ago when I first saw this video. This video is laughible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD9AW-EB3vo&feature=fvst

05RollaXRS

Here you go. Can I have the cash????

(Thanks to Germancarforums for the scan)

Funny how the wrote 'IS-F' instead of 'LF-A' in the final score tally.

SportAuto cited three reasons for LFA's relatively underwhelming acceleration tests:

- 30 C temperature, humidity
- Weak LFA launch control system
- Poor LFA Bridgestone S001 tires (mediocre tires compared to hardcore tires like Michellin Pilot Sport Cup+ and Pirelli P Zero Corsa semi-slick tires.
- Too much drag from the spoiler (check the windtunnel test picture and the flow over and under the spoiler).

rominl

iTrader: (4)

very good question mike. but at the very same time, i think it all depends on who you ask that question to. here on one side with a negative review on lfa, we see some members talking about it and saying that the reviews are biased.

(now before we go further, let me say i am NOT trying to say if that's right or wrong. i am not saying if they are actually biased or not. i am not interested in that and i know it will not end well. and let's just say there are always two ways to see one thing.)

i am fine with that. but if the review goes the other way and it's positive on lfa, then you will hear the word "bias" on some other forums or from some other group of people.

so what is fair? what is neutral? i don't know, it's hard to say. it could be that the drivers are morons and don't know how to operate a japanese exotic. it could be that lexus sent a car with no LC or not "tuned" right (how do you know the exotics are specially tuned for reviews anyway? no speculations). it could be the weather. it could be a lot of reasons. but when i read them, i try to take everything in with an "accepting" attitude, putting my personal preference / bias aside.

i like how dave600hl put it. in the end, it's up to the buyers to appreciate the car truly. some of them want it for the speed and track performance (good or bad). most want it for their love on lexus reliability and the blend with exotics. some purely fall in love with the styling and sound. it's all about the buyers. you look a bit closer and it's nothing different from looking at the isf vs c63 vs m3. i don't see a winner, i don't see a loser, owners get their cars for different reasons.

but on the other hand, putting these cars on the track as a common playing field, that's not a bad idea. after all these cars are about the power, speed, handling. it makes sense to compare it that way. (again, think isf, c63, and m3)

looking at that, we start to see interesting things. lexus hinted good things about the car, great time on the ring. top gear put up some incredible time on wet. people here were happy and hopeful. then came this "flood" of performance reviews by different authorities and none of them seem to be very positive on the lfa.

there will be more and more reviews and tests and comparisons done on the lfa, given time. and i am sure some will be from japan. that would be a good time to see how things are done over there and how the results might differ (or correlate) with reviews we have seen so far.

but in that end, i think we all have to understand one thing. lexus builds the lfa to enter the exotic market. whether this is their focus or not is another story, but they did try to enter the market. and from day 1 i have been say, it's going to be a very very steep uphill climb for them. sorry, but ferrari and some other players in this segment simply carry way too much heritage, reputation, and loyalty. it's undeniable that there will be resistance. you don't have to look far, just look at how the mb slr and the audi r8 were initially received.

to certain extend, it's not much difference than 20 yrs ago when lexus entered the game against bmw and mb. or 2 yrs ago when lexus did the isf against c63 and m3. so it all depends on how lexus react and stand their ground.

so, is the lfa a good car? in my opinion, yes, it's very special from an engineering point of view. did lexus enter the market correctly? imho not so much. is the lfa going to be able to hang with other exotics? very much remained to be seen until more reviews out from more different regions. will the lfa see a tough market ahead? i think so. will the lfa be treated fairly? maybe, but it will take time

TF109B

A tough market? The LFA could have been sold out if they left it in Japan. The only reason it isn't is because they're selective about who they sell it to. Any old millionaire can buy expensive cars, but Lexus isn't looking for that. I see a misconception a lot about the LFA's selling numbers. They're not looking for buyers. Buyers are already there. Whether they chose those buyers is the question. Regardless of all the test numbers the car won it's class and came 18th overall at the Ring 24hours this year. Weighing 3200lbs. having it's engine restricted and running in a slower class with the production car, I say it's done very well. Hell in the wet in practice it was 2nd fastest. The drivers commented how if they had another lap without traffic he could have had first. No other car there was as at home in the wet as the LFA.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

Do you mean the carbon fiber torque tube? That is in the standard LFA as well.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

sure they would have sold every car in japan if they want. but you will have to ask why lexus is still trying to go through the trouble to try sell more here in the US. fact is simple, US is the biggest market for exotics (and cars overall) and this is the market they want to tackle, and it has the most weight. and sorry but in that sense, it's a very tough market here. none of the exotic companies are doing well. 458 sales are bad. very few people buying into the sls.

i don't care what lexus excuses are in their US sales on the lfa, but i can only tell you what you said is just speculations or whatever lexus put on the table. there are no real numbers ever to support it. how many lfa exactly have been sold here in the US? no one knows. it could be 150, but for all i care it could be 50. yes, i am sure lexus is selecting their buyers, and i won't comment if that's a good or bad moves. but given how slow the exotic market is right now, it's a very tough market. in fact, here in the US, ferrari has far more heritage than lexus in the exotic market obviously, and they have so much trouble selling the 458. personally? i can't imagine on the lfa

keep in mind lexus said they had over 1000 applications world wide, god knows how many are in the US. but one fact remains. they exhausted their whole list and could not sell out their US allocation (which rumored to be 150). so either they are being so picky on owners that they shot themselves in the foot, or they just never had that many real buyers here in the US to begin with. no misconception about that.

making 500 cars and trying to be selective on owners is one thing. but if they set a target and not able to come close to hitting it, meaning not able to sell 500 cars by end of june as promised, in the end, that's a miss. and what's good when in the end they don't have 500 cars on the road?

yes, there are a lot of millionaires who can afford the car, but you think all of them are interested in exotics? hardly. it still root from interest. after all getting exotic cars is an expensive hobby, if you look at the exotic owners circle, the overall size (pool) is always more or less the same. and that number is far less than the number of millionaires in the US

we can go round and round on these, and that's exactly why i chose not to say much all along, because it will not end and groups of people will never come to agreement.

the lfa is a great car, i like it. it's great from engineering point of view, it's different and unique, and i personally think it's a great car by lexus. i never for one moment said that the lfa is not a good car. but does that mean it's great against other exotics? reviews so far sort of say otherwise, but there are some positive tests and race for comparison as well. marketing wise? i am one of the very few here probably, but i think lexus did a very poor job on marketing and they aren't really selling the car well here in the US.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i agree!

i liked the tv commercials, but the whole purchasing process seems rather aloof and arrogant.

of course there's many 'exotics'. against any lamborghini i'd take the lfa. the lamborghinis are for ballers who like to be noticed. the lfa is much more subtle in looks, but the engine noise isn't i see an lfa much more like a ferrari - great high tech and performance with serious race-car inspired engineering.

it's not really like an aston martin which is really a brand of exquisite design exercises and quite luxurious interiors. performance is great, but not ferrari/lfa great.

the lfa is puzzling though because lexus is known for refinement and quiet, and the engine and transmission on the lfa are anything but! abrupt shifts and a screaming engine are TOTALLY AT ODDS with lexus' image. now that's a good way to shake things up but it can leave a market (especially of those not already into lexus) 'confused' or at least unsure.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

well lexus sort of went in different directions with the isf already. i think it's necessary though. otherwise if lexus just hold on tight to quietness and smooth, they will continue to be an old man's car. i like how lexus focus on all the refinement on the engine sound, that's good thing

when it comes to exotic cars it's all about very subjective preference in most cases i think. if i have a lot of money, lfa will be in my collection no doubt. but if i have the money to get my first exotic, lfa won't be my first choice

05RollaXRS

Why is the LFA so quiet in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKPR2...layer_embedded