TF109B

That wasn't a fanboy comment you just made there mr. 2? You said fanboys concern themselves with nurburgring lap times but then say Lexus should do so, like other manufacturers? It doesn't matter really, Internet or commercial, it's all the same. They're lap times. According to the 'internet', the best time for the LFA is "under 7:20" for one of their drivers. Japanese are modest people, they don't brag or boast. But when they are in America or other parts of the world, that is common, so why not do a little bit of what the western world does? Well we see that they are with newer commercials talking about other brands. I never thought they would go that direction, but I'm glad they are. Being that way is what other brands do, so why not Lexus. You claim all these companies pride themselves on lap times, but what good is a lap time if the average driver can't achieve it? That's what's spectacular about the LFA. In these comparison tests the LFA is besting these guys at their own game. All that talk about how fast they can go around the green hell doesn't equate to what someone like Horst Van Saurma can go ahead and do. And he's a Porsche factory driver. Yet he couldn't get anything other than a Porsche to beat the LFA's time. Shows you that even a biased (driving wise) man can't even best the LFA in machinery that he's familiar with. All this on sorry *** tires? And where's the excuse for the 458? I thought it was so great? Yet it can't beat the LFA. Neither can the ZR1, the GTR, the 911 Turbo (which hits 60 in 3 flat), even the SLS and Gallardo SuperLeggera. That's saying something about a DEMO LFA.

Mister Two

No, Internet fanboys like you and I read a lot more than the general public so we know better. Most other people don't usually read beyond PR news and ads so all they see are official stats. The sub-7:20 remark is never considered an official statement so it's meaningless except to Lexus enthusiasts. Lexus should publish the 'Ring time not only because all other manufacturers do so, but because it's something (or perhaps the only thing?) that the LFA does particularly well, performance-wise. It's tailor-made for the 'Ring, after all. If Japanese people were modest then why would Lexus even bother to publish the LFA's 0-60 and top speed stats to begin with? If they are to publish those stats, why not at least also include what the LFA is actually good at? It's not like they don't have such stats and even video evidence ready at hand, after so many miles of testing at the 'Ring.You don't need to tell me all that. I know these details all too well because I, like you, am an LFA fanboy. It just frustrates me to no end that the general perception of Lexus as a performance leader has not received its deserved amount of recognition because Lexus has so far published nothing to show how the LFA outperforms its competition in any area, at any level. In fact, if anything, the only official performance stats of the LFA so far, the 3.6-sec 0-60 acceleration time and the 202mph top speed, have done more harm than good for Lexus because such straight-line performances are already easily matched or beaten by cars costing a lot less.

05RollaXRS

The haters are going to hate. If on the same day and same conditions with the same driver, if LFA out-performed everyone of those cars. There is no more proof needed whatsoever.

If someone does not acknowledge that, he never will accept anything else.

And then embarass themselves when their "claimed" factory numbers could never ever in real life could be replicated by anyone, but the so-called factory driver. Funny isn't it??

No independent testing could ever replicate the "claimed" lap times. Shaved tires strong rumor and a factory tune was never ever discounted.

Mister Two

Yes and yes we know all that. But in the mean time all the other manufacturers are legitimately using the 'Ring time as a great marketing tool to elevate their performance image. That's what the general public sees, and that's what really matters for a halo car.

Lexus would be really stupid not to take advantage of the car's superior capability at the 'Ring to establish performance credibility for the F brand and TMC in general IMHO.

gengar

I must be missing why we care what Internet fanboys and the general public think.

Mister Two

Because most Internet fanboys and the general public are not one of the 500 lucky buyers of the LFA but are instead quite possibly in the market for one of Toyota/Lexus's performance-oriented models and can be more easily persuaded if Lexus had a credible halo car? Likewise, if Lexus can't offer any proof that even their $375k halo car is any good, people who are on the fence for one of Toyota/Lexus's performance cars (or any Toyota/Lexus cars) can be turned off by such a fact. Like I said, publishing only stats that are inferior to other supercars only does more harm than good for Lexus. Halo cars are not just about the selected few owners, but about the brand. Since the LFA is obviously being used by Lexus as a marketing tool, sold even at a loss, they need to do the marketing right or don't do it at all.

gengar

Then maybe Lexus should start concentrating on moronic horsepower wars and making cars that go fast around the Nür but that they can't sell. Who really knows which marketing approach is better, but the bottom line is it's still just marketing to idiots.

If Lexus wants to test and release meaningless track times, then they'll do it. If they don't, they won't. We don't need to rehash this silly argument every couple months, especially not in this thread.

Mister Two

Like it or not the general car-buying public do consist of lots of people who don't know better (idiots as you say). The official track times may be meaningless to you as an owner, yet they are, like 0-60 times, meaningful stats to many others who judge a car or a brand's performance cred by such established measurements.

And sorry if my rehashing of the same old argument is tiring you, but I feel that although Lexus may or may not be reading this thread, if we don't even try to voice our concerns somehow, there will be no chance Lexus will ever know what could be wrong with their cars or strategies.

05RollaXRS

You will be disappointed because I am sure Lexus will not fall for that trap and get into rat race of putting lap times that are totally un-reproducable in real life by even a single independent source.

Ferrari must be foolish as well for not releasing any Nurburgring laptimes of the 458 Italia and the hardcore 458 Challenge.


For me, this chart is what does all the talking and shuts up any skeptic:

Mister Two

Yes, that is a beautiful chart indeed, but how many people are aware of this article? Far less than the number of people reading PRs, ads and rankings on Wikipedia, that's for sure. And who cares if the official times are reproduceable by buyers themselves or not? Like 0-60 and MPG ratings, the point is about performance relative to other cars in the same segment, not about the numbers themselves.

You probably forgot that the 458, unlike the LFA, is not Ferrari's halo car. Ferrari does provide official 'Ring times for their halo cars, the street-legal 599 GTO and the non-street-legal 599XX. For their entry-level cars, they can care less--not as good as their halo cars anyway. Lexus as a performance upstart, on the other hand, has nothing performance-wise to show for their halo car so far and has every reason to find any means they can to establish some credibility if they are serious about the F brand.

05RollaXRS

Considering LFA has received 99% rave reviews and track tests, I would say it has already established itself as one of the best supercars of today.

Anyone who has even remote curiosity to learn what LFA's true prowess is, will find all the information needed. For example, every track test and comparison is documented on the LFA wikipedia page complete with the sources so that means people are indeed following the LFA track tests.

If anything, I would like to see proper acceleration numbers of the LFA. My gut feeling is that LFA is just as fast as the 458 Italia in a straight line. I had posted a dyno comparison of LFA and 458 Italia and revealed some shocking facts of LFA putting down actually more torque than the 458 Italia in the 6000 - 9000 rpm region and then LFA has an extra 500 rpm still to go.

Around a race track, it is no brainer LFA is shaping up to be the much superior track car.

Once LFA is in production and hopefully American magazines do some comparisons and more track tests on the production model, I am sure in the next while only haters will be able to deny what LFA is truly capable of since numbers and facts do not lie.

TRDFantasy

I'm pretty sure the "average" person knows very little about Nurburgring times. To say that marketing Nurburgring times is important reputation-wise for average people; I don't agree this with this.

So how well is the GT-R selling these days? I'll answer that for you, not very well for its class. The 911 crushes the GT-R in sales, as does the Corvette. Yes these are not direct comparisons, sure. But they are the closest comparisons we have. Base MSRP for a 911 is not that far off the GT-R's base MSRP. Plus most 911 models have a higher base MSRP than the GT-R anyways.

We can even compare the Audi R8 to GT-R sales. In September Audi actually sold MORE R8s than Nissan sold GT-Rs, and the R8's base MSRP is 60K higher! Year to date Nissan has sold more GT-Rs, but annual sales of the GT-R versus the R8 are going to be close.

The GT-R was hyped and marketed mainly to the technological/Playstation/Gran Turismo gamer crowd. You can see it in the GT-R's styling and in its marketing.

So did Audi market the 'Ring times of the R8? Not really. Do Chevy and Porsche heavily market the 'Ring times of the 911 and Corvette? Not really. I bet the average Corvette or 911 owner doesn't know what the 'Ring time is for their car, and I bet they wouldn't care either.

I bet if you ask the average R35 GT-R owner, they will tell you the exact 'Ring time, and probably tell you the length of the track and a bit of history about it as well .

So the car with the most 'Ring time hype around it is not even selling very well. This to me shows that average people don't really know about 'Ring times and a lot of them don't care.

Most car enthusiasts know about 'Ring times, but they are a small minority of the overall market.

Mister Two

Once again, the point of the GT-R is not to sell the GT-R itself, but to lend its shine on its lesser siblings, the 370Z, G37, etc., and to show off Nissan's performance prowess. The same goes for halo cars of just about any car manufacturers. They usually contribute to very small percentages of the manufacturers' overall profits, but the manufacturers still bother to make such cars because they help raise brand image and sell their volume models, which in turn bring in the real profits. The sales of the halo cars themselves is therefore not that important.

Believe it or not, when Nissan first published their GT-R 'Ring record, it was all over the news, not just on automotive websites, but also on technology websites, financial websites and lifestyle websites. You definitely wouldn't see that kind of coverage if the lap time was published by some 3rd party magazine like AutoBild or SportAuto. Regular people may not understand how fast a 7:29 lap time is (in fact most of those non-automotive websites didn't even bother to mention the lap time), but the fact that they see news talking about how Nissan breaks some kind of performance record increases Nissan's reputation in these people's minds subconsciously. If Lexus would only publish in an official PR the sub-7:20 lap time the chief engineer was talking about, they would have easily enjoyed the same kind of lift in their performance reputation among regular people through such news coverage. Obviously this only works for manufacturers not previously known for extreme performances. Ferrari for example wouldn't get the same kind of news coverage if they broke a 'Ring record.

I see all upsides and no downside for Lexus really. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do it. They have everything to gain and nothing to lose from publishing the record lap time. I'm only afraid, however, that they may have already missed the golden opportunity to publish the "record", as several other street-legal production cars have also done sub-7:20 lap times since the chief LFA engineer unofficially mentioned the LFA's sub-7:20 lap time. The significance and news-worthiness would therefore keep diminishing if Lexus keeps on delaying publishing the lap time, which would be a real shame and a huge waste.

Koma

iTrader: (3)

Actually, Nissan has gone on record more than once that they're here to sell cars no matter which car it is and to make a profit off of each car, whether it be a halo car or not.

05RollaXRS

That is the problem I pointed out earlier. You care about blind fanbois who bench race all day long. If you are worried about pleasing haters and blind fanbois, you are always going to be disappointed.

I have visited NAGTROC and Nissan GTR owners themselves are under no false impressions that the GTR is even remotely comparable with the LFA. Did a GTR tuning shop owner not post a track test review himself and called it "the best handling car I had ever driven"??

Comparing lap times done in different times, different temperatures, different drivers is a complete apples to oranges comparison and the only thing that really counts is how the cars do on the same day, same condition with the same driver.

The fact that Nissan GTR never ever could run (so did the ZR-1) their factory claimed Nurburgring lap times in real life brings serious questions about Nissan and GM's motive and credibility. It puts Nissan and GM to shame because there have also been strong rumors (started by Porsche) that the GTR that Nissan was running around Nurburgring were Dunlop shaved tires and maybe a factory tune look far more valid.