Originally Posted by TommyJames

Here is what I really suspect and for this reason, everyone should do their homework carefully. I suspect that Lexus (may) know they are not going to sell 150 in this market and they don't fear the price flipped up, but cars dumped down, which is what happened to Lamborghini and Ferrari. Lamborghini went from almost 700 LP640s in 2008 to a fraction this year because the used cars were a far better value and the turnover was almost even with the market. What could potentially happen with the LFA is lets say they sell a few on traditional financing terms, 20% down, etc., and those buyers decide they want out after a year, many owners are willing to write that 20% off just to do something else. It then pulls the market flat on the new cars. Even with the SV, of the 43 in the US, nine are still on the market and the two demo cars are already at a discount. Until they are gone, they set the value. Exotics change hands very quickly as it is because they are not basic transportation.

I'm asking hard questions as anyone should who's really interested in this car. I don't know if any of you followed the downfall of Eclipse Aviation, the tiny little jet. There was an engineer who was asking really hard questions about the reality of meeting production and he was flamed on the forums so he started his own site. In the end a lot of people got hurt because they ignored the hard questions this guy was asking. The LFA may be a fine car, but I sincerely hope nobody buys it expecting it to go up in value, definitely not with 150 cars in this US market. Even the F50 was only 55 cars. The SV is only 43 and the Enzo 80 cars, all of these had existing exotic reputations and customer bases. To my knowledge all SVs were sold to existing or prior Lamborghini owners.

With such a low residual, the goofy press, I'm suspicious, that's all.

Originally Posted by TommyJames

Right, but no matter how you slice it, it's forcing buyers to front load their purchase to the tune of $300k in the first two years. The majority of exotics are financed. This "lease" cuts out those payment shoppers, and they do exist at this price point. For many exotic owners it comes down to use of funds, and has nothing to do with available cash. Lets say you're in business for yourself and you're getting a 20% return on your money in your business, you'd be wise to finance. If the cost of financing is higher than the return on your money, you'd be better off paying cash.

My point is that someone could buy a Lamborghini LP640 and at the end of two years still shell out a lot less money. Same with used Ferraris, etc. Furthermore without any written assurance from Lexus (don't know if they will or won't provide them) LFA buyers could get hurt if they don't sell and Lexus decides to "discount" the remaining cars. On their own website they will begin "accepting purchase applications" back in October so you'd think there would be buyer announcements this next week about color and options.

However you want to slice it, this is a car that heavily loaded in the front end and I suspect it's being done so for a reason.

Originally Posted by TommyJames

Yes, but it's demand driven and I believe the rare cars are allocated to dealers. So for example, the Enzo wouldn't necessarily go the one who bought more Ferrari than anyone in total, but at a particular dealership, in part to reward dealership loyalty. In this case, it's a crap shoot in this economy, which is in part why Lamborghini just opened it up to anyone on the SV. There just are not that many new exotic buyer around regardless of brand right now.

Originally Posted by TommyJames

With such a low residual, the goofy press, I'm suspicious, that's all.

Originally Posted by Dave600hL

Look, I hope I can put a better point of veiw on the way Lexus is selling this car.

This type of sale is done over here in Japan from the HS and right up to the LS. It is not a lease so to speak, but b/c the "American" population only has an affinity for the word lease when it comes to paying a monthly fee on a car that is what they automatically assume.

Once you enter the contract the car is yours if you can pay all the payments and the final lump sum at the end and no it is not what you guys call residual. If it is the same as over here , you will be encouraged to pay the final payment and not off load it. In the situation over here you can make a down payment of what you like to decrease the monthly payments , but the final lump sum will not change. I don't think that people will be able to do this with the LFA though. All in all you pay a little extra due to the very low intrest rates, but basically you are paying the car off in installments, like a credit card.

I don't know if that will help , but that is best I can describe it. And BTW, the LFA has to be payed in full here in Japan, so Tommy what do you have to say about that? Especially when Lambos ect can be leased. And there is a draw that is going to take place soon to see who gets the cars as there is at least about 2 to 3 times the demand on the car Japan wide.

Safe to say, if the US does not what them, Japan does.

Originally Posted by TommyJames

I know nothing about the Japanese market, nor have I ever claimed to know that market even though I've spent a lot of time there. I'd expect it to do well just out of national pride alone. I talk about the car in terms of this market, which is why I talk about the 150 cars and the number of US Enzos, F50, SVs, as each world market is different. The SV is booming in some countries and just about every other country is doing better with the SV than the US from what I understand. The US new exotic market is VERY small right now and has been since the summer of 2008.

Originally Posted by Dave600hL

But the conditions for buying the car seem to be similar to me, here we have to buy up front and there you guys enter a contract which will see you paying similar price to if you paid up front only in staggered payments. It just seems to me that they are offering it in a payment system that resembles a lease b/c a lot of exoctic owners as you stated don't buy up front , they lease. Whether that is due to situation for tax purposes ect, ect, it doesn't matter.

Bottom line, this car is being completely built in Japan and I see buying rules that apply here being applied in the US. It may be hard for some to understand, but I doubt very much there is an ulterior motive other than the fact that it is Lexus Japan controling the sale of this car.

What are your thoughts?

Originally Posted by TommyJames

Part of the problem is we have a surplus of used exotics and that's having a huge impact on our market. Selling $400k anything, regardless of what it is, is tough right now. Lamborghini simply changed the allocation of cars to other countries such as China where Lamborghinis are selling very well at the moment. China and other countries were new to the brand and didn't have a huge pile of used cars to compete with.

Question for you, if the LFA market is soft here and strong there, will Lexus shift the allocation to other countries such as Japan and if so, do you worry about that impacting your resale? Do you know how many cars have been allocated to that market? Will Lexus make any promises that the allocation will be a specific number in Japan?

You can see the breakdown of the known 350 SVs and which countries are selling cars relative to the US on the LP site in the Murcielago section. I don't want to post it here and get into trouble. Owners of LFAs would be smart to create a similar list as it provides valuable information.

Originally Posted by TommyJames

I called a multi-Ferrari owner I know to give me some background on the F50 sale program and Enzo lease. He was telling me the reason they did it was because when the F50 came out, dealers were flipping cars then marking up the used cars substantially and when the market tanked, buyers used the lemon law to force some of the dealers to give them their money back with the cars coming back at substantially less value. Ouch! He said the lease program was done to mostly protect dealers and not buyers. Interesting.

Originally Posted by TommyJames

Really not my intention to be a thorn in anyone's side. I'm content to just read but I do hope someone asks these questions to minimize the risk of getting burned. Same questions should be asked of any exotic brand who tries to control the resale market. Remember, because the car is a two year hold, it means that when they do come on the market, it will be all at once, (in sequence with deliveries) and that too may impact the used market. Lexus will be off the hook because it's not trying to move more new cars (unless they aren't sold out) so they won't have much skin in the game to support values above the residual unless they decide to do another car. As I see it, this lease only benefits the customer if there truly is huge demand for the car. It's otherwise a way to shove new cars onto the market without competing against used prices for two years.

Originally Posted by S2000toIS350

Strategy for the nervous

For buyers fearing a bad resale market for these, just select a Miami pastel color.

The first cars produced will be the year one palette. If the LFA market croaks before your car is built, just bail and get your deposits back.

Prediction

I believe the Lexus dealers will be a primary source of buyers of the used LFAs. Consider the point that they will not have had an example of the halo car to put in their front window to entice folks to come in. They will certainly want one to play with.

Many of the original buyers will be buy and hold types, further constraining the used market.

There will also be track experience and exotic rental dealers coming in. They will be able to charge big bucks for seat time for a car that will stay in service day in and day out.

Originally Posted by rominl

i can see the point behind leasing, it cut out those people who are really leasing, it seems like lexus is just focusing on people who can actually front the money (cash) to buy the car.

Originally Posted by gengar

Definitely correct, and this has been Lexus' point since day one. If you called into the Lexus LFA line to express interest, talked to Paul Rohovsky, or talked to anyone else at Lexus involved with the LFA, they'd all have told you the same thing they told me and everyone else: Lexus is forcing a lease to prevent speculation, and you have to be OK with that if you want to buy one.

That's why it's so amusing to see all these anti-Lexus, anti-LFA trolls getting their panties in a bunch over the lease terms. It's really mind-boggling, to be honest, because guess what - this latest release to the customers is not news. It is not anything Lexus hasn't been saying since they first opened up the hotlines. The approximate lease terms in the finalized release are essentially identical to what was presented as an estimate to me last year when I inquired about an option for maximum down payment. But all of a sudden, there are all these people coming out from under their rocks bashing this, bashing that, and it's really getting old. There are valid reasons for not liking the LFA, but the forced lease is not one of them - especially not now when we've known about it for months.