LFA Leasing Details for the US
03-01-10, 01:34 AM
#106
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I know Lexus reliability. I've owned four. Nine years of development was mostly spent doing R&D on the concept of the car, certainly not testing it. None of what you point out necessarily translates into the same reliability found in high volume production cars, because none of these test so far are from cars off the operating production line which does't begin until late this year. Is it going to be more reliable than an SLR (the Mercedes equivalent) out of the box? I'd bet on it. Will it be as reliable as a mass produced Lexus? Highly doubtful, given it's a hand made car. Even Rolls Royce has their share of early production problems and it has BMW behind it and some of the finest craftsmen in the world. It's surprisingly LESS reliable than a Lexus, in areas unique to RR, why? Because it's a very small production run, hand made car. Look at the problem Toyota is now facing with their gas pedals. While some of that it bogus, you just don't know what you're going to face, even when you check off the high production protocols, and the smaller the build number, the harder it is to discover every conceivable issue. I can't think of an exotic that didn't have some teething pains.
Part of the reason the car costs so much is because of the economy of scale dealing with each and every part and trying to test each and every part. The amount of time going into each LFA is significantly more per part than a mass produced car. A simple wheel impact and failure test that could be amortized over 100,000 cars has to be spread over just 500, and so on.
I bring this up, not to raise doubts about the LFA, but to put expectation in some sense of perspective. If you're lucky and there are no problems, terrific, but if there are, don't get mad at Lexus and assume they slapped it together or didn't care, or were somehow sleeping on the job, it's just the nature of the beast and if you understand that, you're more likely to enjoy the car right out of the box.
Part of the reason the car costs so much is because of the economy of scale dealing with each and every part and trying to test each and every part. The amount of time going into each LFA is significantly more per part than a mass produced car. A simple wheel impact and failure test that could be amortized over 100,000 cars has to be spread over just 500, and so on.
I bring this up, not to raise doubts about the LFA, but to put expectation in some sense of perspective. If you're lucky and there are no problems, terrific, but if there are, don't get mad at Lexus and assume they slapped it together or didn't care, or were somehow sleeping on the job, it's just the nature of the beast and if you understand that, you're more likely to enjoy the car right out of the box.
Out of the 9 years of development, they spent a full 5 years testing the car. During the two times they entered LFA prototypes in the 24 Hours of Nurburgring race, the cars were virtually stock, except for some race-specification equipment. Some of the lessons and improvements learned in the races were directly translated to the pre-production cars, and the production cars will benefit from this as well. For example, the production cars will use the exact same shocks/dampers that the prototypes during the races used.
Testing prototypes for 5 years on race tracks, and in actual races (on top of regular testing) is unheard of for most exotic makers, including Ferrari and Lamborghini. Even the Carrera GT never had that much testing.
Since the production LFA was officially unveiled last year in October, there have been a variety of LFA preview drives at tracks going on all over the US. One of the LFAs being used at these track events has racked up thousands of miles of hard track driving, with no major reliability problems.
Nobody is assuming the LFA will equal an LS in reliability.
Likewise, nobody here (except you) is assuming the LFA will be as unreliable as a conventional exotic.
03-01-10, 01:37 AM
#107
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I highly recommend you look up the development history of the LFA. You can find it on the official LFA website, www.lexus-lfa.com.
Out of the 9 years of development, they spent a full 5 years testing the car. During the two times they entered LFA prototypes in the 24 Hours of Nurburgring race, the cars were virtually stock, except for some race-specification equipment. Some of the lessons and improvements learned in the races were directly translated to the pre-production cars, and the production cars will benefit from this as well. For example, the production cars will use the exact same shocks/dampers that the prototypes during the races used.
Testing prototypes for 5 years on race tracks, and in actual races (on top of regular testing) is unheard of for most exotic makers, including Ferrari and Lamborghini. Even the Carrera GT never had that much testing.
Since the production LFA was officially unveiled last year in October, there have been a variety of LFA preview drives at tracks going on all over the US. One of the LFAs being used at these track events has racked up thousands of miles of hard track driving, with no major reliability problems.
Nobody is assuming the LFA will equal an LS in reliability.
Likewise, nobody here (except you) is assuming the LFA will be as unreliable as a conventional exotic.
Out of the 9 years of development, they spent a full 5 years testing the car. During the two times they entered LFA prototypes in the 24 Hours of Nurburgring race, the cars were virtually stock, except for some race-specification equipment. Some of the lessons and improvements learned in the races were directly translated to the pre-production cars, and the production cars will benefit from this as well. For example, the production cars will use the exact same shocks/dampers that the prototypes during the races used.
Testing prototypes for 5 years on race tracks, and in actual races (on top of regular testing) is unheard of for most exotic makers, including Ferrari and Lamborghini. Even the Carrera GT never had that much testing.
Since the production LFA was officially unveiled last year in October, there have been a variety of LFA preview drives at tracks going on all over the US. One of the LFAs being used at these track events has racked up thousands of miles of hard track driving, with no major reliability problems.
Nobody is assuming the LFA will equal an LS in reliability.
Likewise, nobody here (except you) is assuming the LFA will be as unreliable as a conventional exotic.
03-01-10, 01:40 AM
#108
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While Lexus lacked the large number of prototypes that are tested with mass-market vehicles, they made up for it by the sheer amount of testing they did with the few prototypes they had.
Not just for exotic cars, but for almost ANY vehicle in the market, 5 entire years of just testing is unheard of.
Not just for exotic cars, but for almost ANY vehicle in the market, 5 entire years of just testing is unheard of.
03-01-10, 01:48 AM
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Here:
You are CLEARLY assuming the LFA will have reliability similar to other exotics, because you have made some clear and distinct comparisons to cars such as the SLR, Veyron, and CGT.
You have specifically brought up the LFA by pointing out the 500 car production run, and are incorrectly assuming that Lexus did not do a huge amount of testing on the LFA.
Last, you can't assume a mass produced (and tested) car will have the same reliability as something in a 500 car production run that's hand made. While Lexus has the best reputation for reliability for cars in mass production, part of the way they earned that is by putting lots of test cars on the road and driving the heck out of them. That won't happen in a 500 car run. They will have a few test cars, but not 50-100 or more cars like I'm guessing they have with the LS460. Also, when you're hand building anything, there is a learning curve that will still take time on the manufacturing side. Also with any car that's at the extreme end of performance, you're pushing the limits on every component, for weight, wear, output, etc., and all of that comes at a price and that price is that it may fail. The SLR was not as reliable as a Mercedes, and nor has their ever been mass automated manufacturing reliability with any small run production car. In fact the fewer that are made of anything, regardless of who makes it, the smaller the fleet to shake out. Especially when the cars will have lots of miles put on them.
I was at a race car fabrication company yesterday and they were repairing lots of exotics that suffered damage in the strangest of ways. It happens. It's just impossible for Lexus or anyone else to know every issue. Lexus has zero experience building and supporting exotics so there will be teething pains so assuming you're not going need service is just no realistic. This is not anything against Lexus at all. I blew the stereo on my LS460L and what failed hadn't been tested adequately as I understand many failed. You may end up with a perfect car that doesn't break, but I'd not simply assume it or you're going to end up hating the car. Exotics break and it doesn't matter if it's a Veyron, or and SLR, or a CGT, or any other extension of a mass produced brand.
I was at a race car fabrication company yesterday and they were repairing lots of exotics that suffered damage in the strangest of ways. It happens. It's just impossible for Lexus or anyone else to know every issue. Lexus has zero experience building and supporting exotics so there will be teething pains so assuming you're not going need service is just no realistic. This is not anything against Lexus at all. I blew the stereo on my LS460L and what failed hadn't been tested adequately as I understand many failed. You may end up with a perfect car that doesn't break, but I'd not simply assume it or you're going to end up hating the car. Exotics break and it doesn't matter if it's a Veyron, or and SLR, or a CGT, or any other extension of a mass produced brand.
You have specifically brought up the LFA by pointing out the 500 car production run, and are incorrectly assuming that Lexus did not do a huge amount of testing on the LFA.
03-01-10, 01:51 AM
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While Lexus lacked the large number of prototypes that are tested with mass-market vehicles, they made up for it by the sheer amount of testing they did with the few prototypes they had.
Not just for exotic cars, but for almost ANY vehicle in the market, 5 entire years of just testing is unheard of.
Not just for exotic cars, but for almost ANY vehicle in the market, 5 entire years of just testing is unheard of.
count me in, my check is ready ! 
03-01-10, 02:03 AM
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03-01-10, 05:50 AM
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i have NO doubt the LFA will be more reliable than any other exotic ever made. even though it's made in small numbers toyota/lexus simply has the best processes in the world. and no, i'm not a 'fanboy' saying this.
in a similar way, even though some considered it not an exotic, the NSX proved you could have a vehicle built in small numbers that is spectacularly reliable.
in a similar way, even though some considered it not an exotic, the NSX proved you could have a vehicle built in small numbers that is spectacularly reliable.
03-01-10, 06:21 AM
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i have NO doubt the LFA will be more reliable than any other exotic ever made. even though it's made in small numbers toyota/lexus simply has the best processes in the world. and no, i'm not a 'fanboy' saying this.
in a similar way, even though some considered it not an exotic, the NSX proved you could have a vehicle built in small numbers that is spectacularly reliable.
in a similar way, even though some considered it not an exotic, the NSX proved you could have a vehicle built in small numbers that is spectacularly reliable.
03-01-10, 05:46 PM
#115
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This is a fascinating thread. I have learnt a great deal about the exotic market from TommyJames who has presented good arguments dispassionately, logically, and persuasively. Thanks for your contributions!
Chris
Chris
03-01-10, 05:58 PM
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