LFA value discussion thread
01-31-11, 12:23 PM
#136
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It will be a track event, outside my area, but I've been asked to not say too much. I will write comparative differences in what I think will be from a daily ownership point of view. I think the writing about the experience of driving it any everything is beat to death. I'll be thinking about what it will be like to live with. What will be interesting is when someone writes about it in a street run with other exotics. There is something about running with a bunch of other cars that has a big hand in shaping my opinion about them.
01-31-11, 12:31 PM
#137
Thanks Tommy,
Please include some time diriving like you were stuck in traffic and parking it in an urban setting.
I have been wondering how smooth or jerky the car is when crawling, particularly in reverse.
For both rides I had in the car, it was a track experience where they just wind it up quickly from a stop and then back down a pit lane at the end. Nothing real worldish.
Please include some time diriving like you were stuck in traffic and parking it in an urban setting.
I have been wondering how smooth or jerky the car is when crawling, particularly in reverse.
For both rides I had in the car, it was a track experience where they just wind it up quickly from a stop and then back down a pit lane at the end. Nothing real worldish.
01-31-11, 01:49 PM
#140
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The most harassment I get isn't from you guys, it's from the exotic owners who can't for the life of them understand why I own and love my LS. While they all get that it's got a lot of comfort, reliability, they refer to it as the "unenthusiasts" car because of the sanitary feedback to the driver. Even AutoWeek makes fun of LS drivers. Most of the exotic guys drive Audi first, followed by BMW, Mercedes, Maserati, Bentley, but I'm the only one I know (Oh, I did meet one other guy once) who has a Lamborghini and a Lexus. If I even bring up the Phantom, then forget it, the rolling on the floor laughing and teasing about the LS doesn't end. Nothing about my cars gets a bigger WTF! reaction than the LS, simply because of the combination of cars. Lexus has made huge strides in recent years with more sporty versions of cars, but it will still take a while. Right now it's stereotyped as the Asian exotic brand.
01-31-11, 01:52 PM
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TommyJames, I skimmed the last 4 pages of postings and I think have an idea of where you're going with all this
- First there was an impression that you think there are no way Lexus've sold more than 30 LFA's in the US, because they've failed to connect with the current exotic owner circles, and few other reasons.
- Then along the way, I've read that "Lexus is dumping too many LFA's onto the US market...cut production on unsold units..."
- These above and a few other points have lead me to conclude that either you or someone close to you have already purchased an LFA as a speculative investment. What you are doing here is simply try to gauge the strength of the Lexus/LFA culture (the one that you've said is required to boost the LFA's future value). I think you've accomplished that.
I could be way off base with my above assessment, because I did not take the time to read all posts in details.
Since I've ventured to guess on your motive, I'll admit that my LFA purchase is also somewhat of a speculative investment. I also admit that I don't like to lose money period. So how do I justify this transaction? read the next paragraph.
Perhaps, I don't know what I am doing, but my time horizon is in double digits years, or more. Furthermore, the fact that I've come to greatly appreciate the effort of Lexus engineers spent to built this extra special exotic, I just know that it would continue to be valued years down the road. What happens if I am wrong? I will probably just smile and think that was an expensive Lexus, but it's a blast to drive!
- First there was an impression that you think there are no way Lexus've sold more than 30 LFA's in the US, because they've failed to connect with the current exotic owner circles, and few other reasons.
- Then along the way, I've read that "Lexus is dumping too many LFA's onto the US market...cut production on unsold units..."
- These above and a few other points have lead me to conclude that either you or someone close to you have already purchased an LFA as a speculative investment. What you are doing here is simply try to gauge the strength of the Lexus/LFA culture (the one that you've said is required to boost the LFA's future value). I think you've accomplished that.
I could be way off base with my above assessment, because I did not take the time to read all posts in details.
Since I've ventured to guess on your motive, I'll admit that my LFA purchase is also somewhat of a speculative investment. I also admit that I don't like to lose money period. So how do I justify this transaction? read the next paragraph.
Perhaps, I don't know what I am doing, but my time horizon is in double digits years, or more. Furthermore, the fact that I've come to greatly appreciate the effort of Lexus engineers spent to built this extra special exotic, I just know that it would continue to be valued years down the road. What happens if I am wrong? I will probably just smile and think that was an expensive Lexus, but it's a blast to drive!
Last edited by 07grIS350; 01-31-11 at 02:13 PM.
01-31-11, 02:10 PM
#142
The 20 figure is more accurate (as stated in the LA TV morning breakfast show). LexusEnthusiast.com ('Krew') just inquired and found out from Lexus USA and they stated "about 20 more are left for sale". So we have a pseudo confirmation now.
Whatever AutoWeek says, it is not accurate. Atleast not today. The article originally must have been written back in the fall right around the time Lexus USA got the extra 60 allocations of LFA and usually every article takes about a couple of months to get to press, but certainly has no relevance today. Remember, Lexus increased the allocations in US from 110 to 171 way back in circa September - October?? What is 171 - 110?? That is around 60. In the last 3 - 4 months, Lexus must have sold another 40 and have 20 left.
With the exception of Europe, everywhere else there was factual evidence of strong demand. I do believe in Europe (except Germany), Lexus was hoping to sell more, but it did not due to a variety of reasons. LFA was not priced right in Europe as it was almost the same in pounds as in US/CAD dollars (330,000 pounds versus 375,000 dollars), there is a staunch loyalty to European brands in Europe for exotics, incredibly bad economy in Europe nearing bankruptcy.
- In Canada, 10 LFAs go on sale in late March. By May, all of the 10 LFAs were sold out to actual customers. There is a strong rumor that the demand far exceeded the supply and Lexus had to do a draw to select offers for 10 LFAs to elligible customers. Lexus Canada claimed to have asked for increase in allocations citing they could sell another 10 - 15 easily without any problems, Lexus turns Canada down.
- In Singapore, LFA sales are announced and that only 2 will be allocated to Singapore. At an over-the-top outrageous price of $1.25 million Singaporean dollars, both LFA are sold even before the sales process is officially started.
- In Australia, Lexus allocates 5 LFAs. Australian Lexus dealership request an increase in allocation to about 10. Finally, in fall of 2010, Lexus increases the allocation from 5 to 8.
- Regarding Japan, well 165 were sold out in a matter of weeks. We know well that there is a member on this board who was turned down because they had no more allocations for Japan. Lexus was reluctant to offer the most LFAs in Japan due to small and congested roads and also because needs to go more international.
Whatever AutoWeek says, it is not accurate. Atleast not today. The article originally must have been written back in the fall right around the time Lexus USA got the extra 60 allocations of LFA and usually every article takes about a couple of months to get to press, but certainly has no relevance today. Remember, Lexus increased the allocations in US from 110 to 171 way back in circa September - October?? What is 171 - 110?? That is around 60. In the last 3 - 4 months, Lexus must have sold another 40 and have 20 left.
With the exception of Europe, everywhere else there was factual evidence of strong demand. I do believe in Europe (except Germany), Lexus was hoping to sell more, but it did not due to a variety of reasons. LFA was not priced right in Europe as it was almost the same in pounds as in US/CAD dollars (330,000 pounds versus 375,000 dollars), there is a staunch loyalty to European brands in Europe for exotics, incredibly bad economy in Europe nearing bankruptcy.
- In Canada, 10 LFAs go on sale in late March. By May, all of the 10 LFAs were sold out to actual customers. There is a strong rumor that the demand far exceeded the supply and Lexus had to do a draw to select offers for 10 LFAs to elligible customers. Lexus Canada claimed to have asked for increase in allocations citing they could sell another 10 - 15 easily without any problems, Lexus turns Canada down.
- In Singapore, LFA sales are announced and that only 2 will be allocated to Singapore. At an over-the-top outrageous price of $1.25 million Singaporean dollars, both LFA are sold even before the sales process is officially started.
- In Australia, Lexus allocates 5 LFAs. Australian Lexus dealership request an increase in allocation to about 10. Finally, in fall of 2010, Lexus increases the allocation from 5 to 8.
- Regarding Japan, well 165 were sold out in a matter of weeks. We know well that there is a member on this board who was turned down because they had no more allocations for Japan. Lexus was reluctant to offer the most LFAs in Japan due to small and congested roads and also because needs to go more international.
i don't see how one can say one source is more credible than others. moreover, how cars are counted anyway? if cars are sent to dealership as inventory, are those considered sold or not sold? if you talk to certain brands, they are sold already (because it's not with manufacturers). but by my book, hell no
01-31-11, 02:12 PM
#143
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I try not to pass such harsh judgment on the motives of others and their reasons for their cars. If I was like that I wouldn't bother with the forums, I'd assume I knew what everyone was thinking and call it a day. These guys are true car guys in every sense of the word, but they just value different things in the cars they drive. If we all liked the same things there would only be one brand.
01-31-11, 02:20 PM
#144
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I try not to pass such harsh judgment on the motives of others and their reasons for their cars. If I was like that I wouldn't bother with the forums, I'd assume I knew what everyone was thinking and call it a day. These guys are true car guys in every sense of the word, but they just value different things in the cars they drive. If we all liked the same things there would only be one brand.
Some of the guys you know calling the LS an "unenthusiasts" vehicle shows a clear lack of respect.
01-31-11, 02:30 PM
#145
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TommyJames, I skimmed the last 4 pages of postings and I think have an idea of where you're going with all this
- First there was an impression that you think there are no way Lexus've sold more than 30 LFA's in the US, because they've failed to connect with the current exotic owner circles, and few other reasons.
- Then along the way, I've read that "Lexus is dumping too many LFA's onto the US market...cut production on unsold units..."
- These above and a few other points have lead me to conclude that either you or someone close to you have already purchased an LFA as a speculative investment. What you are doing here is simply try to gauge the strength of the Lexus/LFA culture (the one that you've said is required to boost the LFA's future value). I think you've accomplished that.
I could be way off base with my above assessment, because I did not take the time to read all posts in details.
Since I've ventured to guess on your motive, I'll admit that my LFA purchase is also somewhat of a speculative investment. I also admit that I don't like to lose money period. So how do I justify this transaction? read the next paragraph.
Perhaps, I don't know what I am doing, but my time horizon is in double digits years, or more. Furthermore, the fact that I've come to greatly appreciate the effort of Lexus engineers spent to built this extra special exotic, I just know that it would continue to be valued years down the road. What happens if I am wrong? I will probably just smile and think that was an expensive Lexus, but it's a blast to drive!
- First there was an impression that you think there are no way Lexus've sold more than 30 LFA's in the US, because they've failed to connect with the current exotic owner circles, and few other reasons.
- Then along the way, I've read that "Lexus is dumping too many LFA's onto the US market...cut production on unsold units..."
- These above and a few other points have lead me to conclude that either you or someone close to you have already purchased an LFA as a speculative investment. What you are doing here is simply try to gauge the strength of the Lexus/LFA culture (the one that you've said is required to boost the LFA's future value). I think you've accomplished that.
I could be way off base with my above assessment, because I did not take the time to read all posts in details.
Since I've ventured to guess on your motive, I'll admit that my LFA purchase is also somewhat of a speculative investment. I also admit that I don't like to lose money period. So how do I justify this transaction? read the next paragraph.
Perhaps, I don't know what I am doing, but my time horizon is in double digits years, or more. Furthermore, the fact that I've come to greatly appreciate the effort of Lexus engineers spent to built this extra special exotic, I just know that it would continue to be valued years down the road. What happens if I am wrong? I will probably just smile and think that was an expensive Lexus, but it's a blast to drive!
My comment is based on where I'd be if I was an actual buyer with my check now in Lexus' hands. Let's say you plopped down your deposit and have a car coming in 2012. What would you do if demand were low and Lexus was pumping them into dealer's hands instead? Don't you think they would then lower the price to move the cars? What would that do to your deal? Would you stick with it or renegotiate? So, suddenly all those depositors who have positions for next year are wondering WTF!
This very thing happened with corporate jets in 2008 and 09 and some had been waiting for almost three years with a few progress payments along the way. They walked away from big deposits, we're talking millions, because it was still cheaper to buy something that was on the market today.
So, if you're in that position, wouldn't it be better for everyone (except possibly Lexus) if production were cut significantly? This way the value remains up, and supply and demand are about even, and hopefully demand would increase. Ferrari has a rule as they put it, and I paraphrase, "We produce one less car than the market wants."
It never stops amazing me that when someone can't face simple, logical facts or find holes in credibility, the conspiracy theories emerge. What next? That I work for Audi?
01-31-11, 02:34 PM
#146
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This is irrelevant. What they value makes no difference here. Everyone has different values and different things they are into as automotive enthusiasts, but I am talking about RESPECT and APPRECIATION of vehicles that you might not be interested in or value. It's about giving respect to great vehicles even if you don't like them. I know plenty of people who respect and appreciate vehicles they're personally not that into, and THAT is what being a true enthusiast is IMO.
Some of the guys you know calling the LS an "unenthusiasts" vehicle shows a clear lack of respect.
Some of the guys you know calling the LS an "unenthusiasts" vehicle shows a clear lack of respect.
01-31-11, 02:49 PM
#147
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I'm well known in exotic circles as I co-host the largest weekly gathering of exotics north of LA and I can tell you that I don't know of a single owner to this day personally who's buying an LFA. I wish it was different. I know of our local Lexus dealer who's buying one, a black car. I've met him twice I think. I otherwise don't even have two degrees of separation to a buyer. I only know of two LP700 buyers so far if that makes you feel better, but that race has only begun.
My comment is based on where I'd be if I was an actual buyer with my check now in Lexus' hands. Let's say you plopped down your deposit and have a car coming in 2012. What would you do if demand were low and Lexus was pumping them into dealer's hands instead? Don't you think they would then lower the price to move the cars? What would that do to your deal? Would you stick with it or renegotiate? So, suddenly all those depositors who have positions for next year are wondering WTF!
This very thing happened with corporate jets in 2008 and 09 and some had been waiting for almost three years with a few progress payments along the way. They walked away from big deposits, we're talking millions, because it was still cheaper to buy something that was on the market today.
So, if you're in that position, wouldn't it be better for everyone (except possibly Lexus) if production were cut significantly? This way the value remains up, and supply and demand are about even, and hopefully demand would increase. Ferrari has a rule as they put it, and I paraphrase, "We produce one less car than the market wants."
It never stops amazing me that when someone can't face simple, logical facts or find holes in credibility, the conspiracy theories emerge. What next? That I work for Audi?
My comment is based on where I'd be if I was an actual buyer with my check now in Lexus' hands. Let's say you plopped down your deposit and have a car coming in 2012. What would you do if demand were low and Lexus was pumping them into dealer's hands instead? Don't you think they would then lower the price to move the cars? What would that do to your deal? Would you stick with it or renegotiate? So, suddenly all those depositors who have positions for next year are wondering WTF!
This very thing happened with corporate jets in 2008 and 09 and some had been waiting for almost three years with a few progress payments along the way. They walked away from big deposits, we're talking millions, because it was still cheaper to buy something that was on the market today.
So, if you're in that position, wouldn't it be better for everyone (except possibly Lexus) if production were cut significantly? This way the value remains up, and supply and demand are about even, and hopefully demand would increase. Ferrari has a rule as they put it, and I paraphrase, "We produce one less car than the market wants."
It never stops amazing me that when someone can't face simple, logical facts or find holes in credibility, the conspiracy theories emerge. What next? That I work for Audi?
Just kidding. So I am wrong on my guess. I still don't get why you'd care if Lexus over produced LFA's AND you had no dogs in the game. I don't know anyone who would spent hours/days going at the same topic from so many different angles. Sorry I am really slow.
By the way I would not tell my casual friends about my speculative investments either, especially those that might make me the joke of the gathering.
Last edited by 07grIS350; 01-31-11 at 02:54 PM.
01-31-11, 03:21 PM
#148
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If Lexus dumps cars, then it harms the value of all exotics. Think of it as the stock market. When values of LFAs fall, it means that other jump from Lamborghini or Ferrari to that cheaper car, if they go up and they get out, they buy something else too. It works very much the same way. No, I'm not the least bit pissed. I forget to add smiley faces.
01-31-11, 03:32 PM
#149
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For those of you who still want to flame me, watch the Carz video and look at the exotics. The only car of mine I didn't have there was my LS, but the point is that the exotic world is very small and we all talk cars, just as we're doing here. Anthony called me on Tuesday and I pulled everyone there that Saturday. We all get along regardless of brand and we had a great time shooting the video. The LFA is right in the discussion when we get together, but it's the big mystery car and only time will fully tell the story. We've tried to get them to come up to our event and Anthony would have written it into the song if they didn't treat us like we didn't even exist.
01-31-11, 03:56 PM
#150
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If Lexus dumps cars, then it harms the value of all exotics. Think of it as the stock market. When values of LFAs fall, it means that other jump from Lamborghini or Ferrari to that cheaper car, if they go up and they get out, they buy something else too. It works very much the same way. No, I'm not the least bit pissed. I forget to add smiley faces.
Another point is that I think you're under estimating the selling machine at Lexus. It would be plain dumb if they flooded the US market with cheap LFA's. It's simply won't happen, unless they are trying to gain a foothold in this market segment.
Last edited by 07grIS350; 01-31-11 at 04:01 PM.